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Does SSMB prefer Adventure to the Classics?


Regen

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Okay, I'm not sure if I'm going to regret making this topic, but it's something I really feel I need to create because it's bugging me to no end :P .

To put it simply, I've noticed a massive bias in the SSMB community as a whole for the 3D Sonic games and Sonic's gameplay in Sonic Adventure in particular. There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has bias, I have bias, you have bias and everyone else reading this has bias. There's absolutely nothing wrong with bias. What I am wondering about though, is if the SSMB prefers the 3D Sonic games over the 2D Sonic games. Okay, maybe I should word that differently. Does the SSMB prefer the conceptual potential of Sonic's gameplay in Adventure over the Classic Sonic games? The reason I word it like that is because most people here who praise Adventure are aware it's bad as a game, but they like the actual potential in Sonic Adventure. I think that's reasonable and I appreciate people here make the differentiation.

Okay, I know, everyone here praises Sonic 3 and Knuckles and I will say that is my favourite Sonic game of all time. But what of the other great 2D Sonic games? What about Sonic 2, another masterpiece, yet it's barely every discussed and a lot of people don't seem to particularly like it when it is brought up. Sonic CD only every gets brought up because it's odd and people seem to like to critique the level design, which I think is fair enough but it has loads of little great details that often get overlooked. As for Sonic 1, that's almost never brought up, despite being a brilliant game, even if it's the weaker game in the Classic series.

I get the impression that many people here prefer the concept of Sonic's stages in Adventure over the Classic Sonic Games, which I find really weird. Yeah, I know, it's all opinions. Everyone's entitled to think what they want. If you prefer Adventure, that's cool. If you prefer Sonic 06 I would seriously question your judgement, but hey, it's your opinion. I just find it surprising that it's such a wide-held opinion here.

I've talked about bias, so I'l come forward with mine :P . I think the Classic Sonic games, all of them, are far better than any aspect of all the 3D Sonic games, including the popular ones here like Adventure and Unleashed. I don't think that's such an extreme or unusual view though, I know it's held by virtually everyone outside the hardcore Sonic fanbase, which is why I think it's odd that it's so unusual here, a place with really intelligent people discussing Sonic everyday and the Classics rarely get discussed unless they are used as a signal point for Adventure or 3D Sonic games!

I have my own reasons for why I think the Classic Games don't get discussed much and why Adventure does. I think the fans here are more likely to discuss elements of Sonic that come under fire that don't really deserve it to the extent of the flak they get. So, the friends are a popular topic, the plot of Sonic games are a popular topic and, surprise, the 3D Sonic games are a popular topic, with Adventure in particular. Like the other things on the previous list, everyone attacks Adventure unfairly on the web and I think it's a contributing reason for why people feel the need to defend it so much here and get so attached to it. On the other hand, everyone knows how great the Classic Sonic games are, and I think people here don't feel such a reason to defend it.

The other reason might get me in trouble but I'll say it anyway :P . The SSMB is very popularity driven, it's kind of tribal. I've jokingly called this place a 'hive-mind', which is going too far, but there's no secret that very popular members here (you know who you are :P ) do tend to like the Adventure titles and I think that influences other members on the site. That's without mentioning that pro-Adventure posts will probably bring in the popularity votes. Now I'm not saying that the super-popular members here all have this ridiculous obsession with Adventure, all of them are reasonable with Adventure and its many flaws. However, they do profess to wanting to see more 3D Sonic titles in the style of Adventure's Sonic stages in particular. And of course, I'm aware that there are super-popular members (Diogenes comes to mind) who aren't so hot about Sonic Adventure. I just think it is a reason for why the SSMB is so incredibly pro-Sonic Adventure, even if its only a small reason. Again, there's nothing wrong with this, but I think it's a reason for why we are in this admittedly unusual position.

And of course, there are many other reasons too. This is why I've created this topic, to ask you guys why you discuss Adventure more than the Classics. Do you prefer Adventure? Do you prefer the 3D Sonic games in general? Thanks for reading my topic :) . I've tried to be polite in this thread and not be a dick or anything, but let me know if I have come across that way! I just think it's something that's fascinating to discuss.

You never know, you may sway me over to your side!

The idea came from a great post by MonkeyDestructionSwitch

Edited by Regen
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I can see conceptual potential in the Adventure games but no, the end product is not superior to the Classic Quintet (I consider CD to be of the same 'blood' as the 4 main Mega Drive games) in my opinion.

Mainly because those five games have superior design which has aged quite well.

Adventure....simply hasn't.

And I'm guessing that Adventure is discussed more perhaps because it may be a more interesting subject to discuss partly due to it's controversial nature regarding whether it is or isn't the 'right' way to do Sonic in 3D.

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I think this place leans toward Sonic Adventure over Classic Sonic, but I don't think that has to do with how popular the poster in question is. Like, I'm pretty open about how much I don't like Sonic Adventure 2 and most of the games after it in that era , and I'm not all that popular but I still get plenty of likes on my stuff. I think it just comes down to how good the post is.

 

I think it's literally because the dreamcast era is shat on literally everywhere else so people who do like it just come here to voice their frustration.

 

 

Edited by Wraith
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I have more Nostalgia with Sonic Adventure, and it honestly intrigues me more, and gives me more enjoyment when I play it compared to the classic games. The only one that comes close is Sonic 3/Sonic & Knuckles, but those get stale after a while. 

But hey, like you said, I've got a bias towards 3D Sonic. Love it to death. Even with as much good design aspects that the classics have, there's just this unshakable charm that the 3D entries have for me that the Classics don't. May just be my Nostalgia (even though I've been told that I've had Genesis Sonic games before I had Dreamcast Sonic games), but 3D Sonic tends to keep my attention for a great deal longer, personally speaking.

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The classics are definitely the better games, but I primarily only played them at friends' houses as a kid, never really getting into them until AFTER Sonic Adventure 2 reintroduced me to the series.

So while the stories and such have shown their age, the story driven, character driven aspects of the 3D games are part of "Sonic" for me, and thus when I THEN went back to the classics I sort of projected that onto them and really dug into the smaller facets of the plot and how they could be linked to what would come later on in the 3D games.

As a result, I think more fondly of the 3D games - Adventure 2 in particular, and the extra aspect of cinematic flair "makes up for" the objectively lower quality of the game design compared to the classics - which are so well made they thrive on their objective value entirely rather than the 3D games relying on my nostalgic feelings of playing back when I had lower, teenage standards and could stomach storyline, dialogue and cut-scene quality of that which appears in those games.

 

 

Of course, Unleashed beats em both, but that's just me.

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SSMB likes games which it's members like.

We're not a single minded collective like some places think we are. Some like adventure, some like classics, some like boost and some don't like Sonic at all.

I'm aware of that.

But I would say that most people here tend to like Adventure. This happens in literally every single community, some ideas become popular and are shared by the majority of people.

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There are alot who dont like Sonic at all so its a mix from opinions.

Me? My first game was Sonic 06 and then the later games. So I perfer the modern Sonic games more then the classics. I just dont like the classics. Especially the Shitvance series. But my opinion isnt popular. Still thats how I feel. 

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Is it even possible that there is a site that can be bias to anything else than classics in Sonic?

Well seriously, there seems to be quite many Adventure-fans and why they prefer it? Because they simply do. It can be because of nostalgia or just preferring the style of those games.

I started to play Sonic games at the end of the last year and now after playing all of them (except Unleashed and Lost World), I have simply came to the conclusion that I prefer Adventure-style games over modern or classic games (and don't get me wrong, I like those also). Because 1. I prefer 3D over 2D, why? Can't really say but it can be because I started playing games at then end of the 90s so I have more experience with 3D-games 2. The way Sonic handles in those games just feels better for me.

But why I discuss about 3D more? I can't say for sure but I guess that there is just more to talk about because I just feel that 3D Sonic has been treated unfairly and I don't like doing classic glorification what this internet is full of. And it seems that mainstream media like IGN are just so heavily bias to classics that someones need to stick up for the 3D games. And generally there just is more to talk about.

And what do I think about classics? They're great but not perfect and honestly it seems that most of the times some of their problems had been overlooked, especially with Sonic 2. I have seen people complaining that Advance games having cheap and frustrating level desing but only ExoParadigmGamer from Youtube I have ever seem to mention how cheap Sonic 2 can be with it's bullshit insta-deaths and even back then outdated continue-system.

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I'm aware of that.

But I would say that most people here tend to like Adventure. This happens in literally every single community, some ideas become popular and are shared by the majority of people.

I disagree. If anything, I think the way the original question was asked is kinda odd.

I think almost everyone will agree that Sonic 3 & Knuckles is, objectively, a better made game than Sonic Adventure. Not necessarily in play-style, so much as in the polish and design departments.

It's just weird that you're asking people to compare actual quality to potential quality.

Edited by Chaos Controller
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This sounds like a hella loaded question...

The forum likes the games individual members like. It's as simple as that. It's really not an either-or question because some members prefer both for one reason or another.

Overwhelming majority of opinions on here will say that S3&K is the absolute best Sonic game in the franchise, but after that opinions fly all over the place. And even then, it's all in specific merits that the Adventures or the Classics have over each other:

  • The classics have the most solid gameplay that has kept people's interest for years,
  • Meanwhile, although the Adventures may have poorly aged in the gameplay, their stories are among the absolute strongest (albeit with a number of hiccups in narrative, voice acting, etc) among the franchise

Often people talk about the Adventures because they were the closest to bringing the Classics into 3D compared to the many games after it, and more than a decade later this has been a hell of a missed opportunity. Really, that's all it is: a question of "actual" versus "potential" which isn't exactly something easily measured between each other. But you're not gonna get a single collective answer over what this site prefers - it's a mix of opinions.

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Personally, I do prefer the original Adventure to the classic games. Why? Well, to be frank. Sonic 1 is bad in my eyes, Sonic 2 and CD are meh, and Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the only one of the Genesis games that I can say I wholeheartedly enjoyed. Other than that, I am not a fan of the genesis games at all. Meanwhile, I just love the original Adventure.

Of course there was bad ideas in Adventure, I'm not denying that. I won't pretend for a moment that Big the Cat is a idea that needed to be included in any Sonic game ever, but being totally honest, I did enjoy the other play styles. Both Sonic and Tails provided a really great sense of speed, platforming, and action throughout their stages, and threw in enough gimmicks that actually work which are fun and shake up the gameplay, with the snow board section of Ice Cap being my personal favourite. Knuckles' was pretty fun as well, pretty much because he did have the speed of Sonic, but had his own unique twists, while the game made it enjoyable to find emerald shards, unlike Adventure 2.

Amy worked for a more slower based puzzle/stealth platforming style, and while it isn't the best, I feel that it doesn't overstay it's welcome due to the fact that it's only three to four levels long. I feel the slower speed of her levels make up for the low level count. Gamma's gameplay feels decently speedy while keeping in some platforming elements, but mixing up the gameplay into a shooting gallery. Big...is Big. His gameplay is pretty terrible, his fishing seems to always require me to do additional learning because I keep forgetting how to play his story, and overall, he's pretty terrible.

I also love Adventure's soundtrack, and have absolutely no issue with calling it one of my favourite soundtracks of all time. Personal favourites being:

 

 

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For me, it's a simple case of me not enjoying 2D Sonic gameplay half as much as 3D Sonic gameplay. Sonic 3&K is probably the best Sonic game of all time, and definitely has the best physics for Sonic gameplay of all time as well, but the simple fact that I can't see in front of me past 5 yards hampers my enjoyment of the gameplay way too much for me to love it unconditionally.

Even if they have far more flaws than the classics, the Adventure games being 3D adventures automatically makes them more enjoyable for me. If a game like Adventure had 1:1 physics to the classics, that'd be perfect.

Conceptually, though? Eeeh. The only addition to the gameplay that I'd consider a good thing is the homing attack, but even then it cancels out momentum and kills your speed. If it were more like the Balloons in Colors or the Homing Attack in Rush, then I think it'd be better than the classic gameplay, (at least if they were compared in a 3D space) but otherwise I'm not too fond of all the things the Adventure era has brought into the control scheme. Light Speed Dash, Light Speed Attack, somersault, magic hands; it just brought in context-sensitive moves that were only able to be used in certain areas, with little use elsewhere. And goodness knows how another gameplay roulette game would go down nowadays...

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Well, Sonic Adventure 2 is my favorite game, Sonic Adventure 1 is my second favorite, (and Shadow's game is my third favorite) and Sonic 2 is only in 4th place. Personally I find Sonic 1 boring as hell, and S3&K I just find frustrating in most aspects. I'll play Sonic 2 over and over again, but SA2 and SA1 really kept my attention, and will continue to do so for months, they just have so much more substance, I enjoy every part of them, all gameplays, Chao, music, story, they are perfection to me. I'd put Sonic 06 on my top 10 even probably if I can get a chance to play more of it soon! I just enjoy everything the Adventure games stand for, and I wish there was more of it in the series. I don't hate the classics at all, but I more appreciate their legacy and history than some of them as themselves, and I also don't hate needlessly on the few games everyone else always seems to (I see this more than Adventure worship, to be fair) Just some games I like or dislike more than others.

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Well, I'm not a big, big fan of the Adventure games (I play more Adventure 2 than 1 as it is... mainly because of the Chao Garden), but they're alright. I always usually play Sonic Generations though (as that's the first Sonic game I ever played).

As for the classics, the only one I thoroughly enjoy is Sonic 2. I have no clue what it is (the music, maybe sprites), but I absolutely love this game. Whereas, my most disliked Classic game is Sonic CD. I don't like the music or the game play... but hey! We all have our own opinions, right?

Not gonna lie, I love the music in the Adventure games, especially Dilapidated Way for SA1 and Pyramid Cave for SA2. I don't, however, have any nostalgia for any of the Sonic games because I didn't actually grow up with the blue hedgehog.

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I completely understand and to a large extent actually agree with the argument that the Adventures are potentially a lot more interesting to discuss than the Classics. Also, I think that Sonic's gameplay in Adventure shows a lot of potential, since it's the closest this series gets to translating the Classic gameplay to 3D. I think that personally, I would probably rather have a new 3D game that did a really good job of imitating what was great about the classics, which could be thought of as an extension of the Sonic Adventures' Sonic gameplay to an extent, than a new 2D game that did a really good job of imitating what was great about the classics - all things being equal (that is, both did an equally good job of imitating what was great about the classics).

That being said, yes, I do believe the Genesis games are vastly superior to the Adventures, and on top of that I enjoy them more. Also, I love Sonic 1 and Sonic 2; in fact, I don't consider Sonic 3 & Knuckles to be clearly superior to them. I see all three (four if you count S&K as separate) on an even keel for the most part. I feel kind of weird for not seeing S3&K as clearly superior when everyone else does, especially since I have a very hard time articulating why. As absolutely bizarre as this is certain to sound, I think I might like 1 and 2 better for the lack of save system. If you don't have a save system, you play the same levels again and again until you get really good at them, which is extremely satisfying and fun. (And yeah, of course it's not mandatory to save, but I haven't ever not used it yet...maybe I should :P ) However, I think it might have something to do with the level design and gameplay too. Maybe it's just me, but the levels in S3&K seem long and for some reason tend to bore me more easily. I'm not saying that S3&K isn't a great game; it totally, definitely is. I guess I just don't personally agree with the mindset that it's vastly superior to its predecessors, which seems rather popular here.

S3&K certainly deserves its extremely good reputation on this forum, but it seems to me like Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 get an alarmingly small amount of love here, especially poor Sonic 1. Honestly, I really, really love Sonic 1. I just do. I don't care that you can't go fast that often. It's still a really great platformer that makes great use of slope and momentum physics, and sometimes I honestly prefer the more complex platforming to the ability to go fast frequently. To say I enjoy it immensely would be an understatement. Don't get me wrong, I CAN understand grievances other people would have against it, and why some people simply wouldn't enjoy it that much. But the fact remains that not only do I enjoy it, I consider it to objectively be a very high-quality game. Not necessarily THE highest quality in the series or anything, but still very high quality.

I mean, yeah...if you simply don't enjoy the games I like, that's just the way it is, I guess. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But I'd be lying if I said it didn't make me feel...well, unhappy. I simply don't enjoy seeing two of my absolute favorite, most enjoyed video games (Sonic 1 or Sonic 2) ignored in favor of games which are objectively poorer quality. I know this will sound extremely dorky and cheesy, but I might as well be honest - I really do get a lot of pleasure, happiness, even sometimes downright euphoria from playing them. And frankly, I'm not really ashamed of that fact.

(By the way, I know I haven't mentioned CD. I've never made very much at all progress in that game. I think it seems really fun, appealing and original in a lot of ways, but I keep getting frustrated by one thing or another which majorly turns me off, such as the time travel. I'd like to really give it the old college try one of these days, but for now I guess I don't have much to say about it. It still gets me down for people to be overly critical of it, because I still have a feeling that, while I may find it frustrating in some ways, it probably doesn't deserve that treatment...but I could be wrong for all I know, hence why I haven't talked about it before.)

I'm certainly not saying everyone else has to have the same experience. Heck, I don't want to be around people who all think the same thing as me. But I don't know. Maybe I should leave the forum. It's not just "people have different opinions, boo hoo hoo" or something, it's also that it probably brings out more antagonism in me. I really do enjoy the Adventure games (mostly the Sonic/Shadow sections) and other modern games, and normally I like modern characters such as Blaze or Silver, but being in an environment where those things are exalted and things I like more are put down makes me feel a little bit bitter and antagonistic towards them.

I don't want to become the stereotypical bitter, crotchety "classic purist", because, well, I just don't think that defines me at all. I hate the idea of any Sonic-related "purism". I like Sonic stuff of all kinds from all eras. I do definitely prefer the classics in general, but I definitely don't want to become defensive about it, demeaning to others' preferences, or act like they're perfect. But as I'm spending more time here and realizing just how many people here don't like the classics very much, I'm afraid the stupid divisiveness of the Sonic fandom will get to me and I'll find myself segmented into the "Classic" category, when in reality I want to enjoy everything the hedgehog has to offer that I like.

Getting locked into these stupid subcategories is something I want no part of. I just want to enjoy the stupid super-fast blue hedgehog I've loved for half my life and have fun discussing him with other people. And for a (fairly) long while, that's exactly what I've done on this forum. I've had lots and lots of fun chatting about the various aspects of one of my all-time favorite franchises with a diverse group of intelligent people who care just as much about it as I do, sometimes even more. But maybe it is time to move on. Or maybe I just have to not care so much. But it's hard when you feel like your own opinion is both extremely objectively valid and unpopular. It just is.

...And yeah, it occurs to me that there's actually a great likelihood that I have a very distorted perspective. I'm sure there are many, many members here who (perhaps strongly) prefer the classic games. But, well...lately, I just haven't seen that side of SSMB, and the side which seems nearly indifferent to the classics and fond of Adventure-era stuff seems more prominent. That's just the way it seems to me right now. If I'd been more actively involved in the Sonic community when longing for the classics was more prominent, seeing people appreciating the Adventures would probably be a breath of fresh air. And there are certainly people here who don't like one or both of the Adventures. I don't know why opinions can seem so uniform when they're actually so diverse, but what can I say? They kind of do.

tl;dr It seems like a lot of active members here don't care for the Classics very much and that makes me sad because I like them the best. That's all, really :P 

Just for the record, I became a Sonic fan in 2006 at the age of nine, and Sonic Adventure DX and Sonic & Knuckles Collection are both among my earliest games, so my preference for the Classics has absolutely nothing to do with nostalgia. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

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(By the way, I know I haven't mentioned CD. I've never made very much at all progress in that game. I think it seems really fun, appealing and original in a lot of ways, but I keep getting frustrated by one thing or another which majorly turns me off, such as the time travel. I'd like to really give it the old college try one of these days, but for now I guess I don't have much to say about it. It still gets me down for people to be overly critical of it, because I still have a feeling that, while I may find it frustrating in some ways, it probably doesn't deserve that treatment...but I could be wrong for all I know, hence why I haven't talked about it before.)

CD gets criticism because it has some psychotic level design but the game is really good honestly, it's just the time travel gimmick, like you said, is horribly implemented. I've beaten the game multiple times, with Time Stones, Without Time Stones and destroying the Metal Sonic Capsule and Badnik Dispenser in every stage and manually getting all the good futures. I really did like getting the Good Future's properly, but I would be lying if I didn't admit it was deeply flawed. There was no point in the bad futures at all, it was essentially just a way to make you more careful to dodge the future signposts.

Honestly, I would recommend you just play Taxman's version of CD with the JP Soundtrack and complete it without paying attention to the Time Posts. Then, unlock the level select and play the different time zone versions of levels you like. Good Future Quartz Quadrant and Good Future Stardust Speedway are beautiful with incredible music. Sonic CD is incredibly artistic.

I think Sonic CD would have benefited if it let you replay levels from the start with the time zones you unlocked, because otherwise the Good Futures get virtually no screen-time unless you count the Boss Stages. And the Good Future/Bad Future versions of stages have songs that play off the melody, different level designs and badnik places. The whole works! It's ridiculous that you are only encouraged to go to the past.

A Sonic fangame that really perfected what Sonic CD was going for would be very special.

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To be completely honest, I find CD to be one of the most overrated Sonic games out there. I mean, I understand if you like it, and that's all fine and dandy, but in my opinion, the level design is all over the place, the gameplay is more or less Sonic 1/2 only with a Past/Future mechanic that isn't even that great due to only letting you see the results in the boss act, there's no Super Sonic, and Metal Sonic and Amy don't even really have personality in the game, to the point where they just changed Amy to Princess Sally to try draw in SatAM viewers. I just can't find enjoyment with CD outside of one or two zones, and that's being it. It literally takes most of my issues with 1 and 2 and pushes them to the extreme.

And I don't understand why that gets all the praise instead of S3&K tbh.

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Uh, no, I think most agree that the Classics are most solid games. Even I agree with that, but the thing is, even though I agree with that, I don't really, you know, care about the Classics. The only ones I enjoyed are 3&K and CD.

3K because I actually legitimately have fun with that one, it actually feels like an adventure, and CD because of its atmosphere and aesthetics. But beyond that, I'd take Sonic Adventure 1 or Sonic Adventure 2 any damn day of the week. Because I enjoy the story and characters. At the end of the day, that's what matters the most to me. Plus, the gameplay of speed stages actually feel like platformers in 3D, if buggy.

 

But that's me. I care about that stuff the most, other people care more about gameplay. That's fine. Those two things aren't really exclusive.

Edited by WittyUsername®
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I am a child of the 90s, classic Sonic was my introduction to the series, but I grew to prefer the Adventure series for its redesigns of the characters, more realistic enviroments, and more serious storylines.

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