*(On The Topic Of Boost Game Play)*

[Chris Knopps]

When it comes to the boost, I would have preferred if they kept this game play restricted to handhelds and 2D titles.

For consoles and 3D games, I would have preferred if they improved the mach speed sections/stages in Sonic 06 and evolved it over time. To me the boost wears out the fun of going incredibly fast and is boring because there's no punishment asides traps/obstacles whereas Sonic going fast via mach speed means injury/death depending on your ring count.

When the hedgehog runs at insane speeds I prefer it to be at the risk of his life, emphasizing the urgency/danger in the moment instead of wearing out the enjoyment of super speeds by having it constantly and eliminating the dangers of going so fast save for trolling stage designs. If the hedgehog is going to go that fast, odd as it may sound, I expect him to get hurt from hitting walls/enemies and the like.

I'm not saying boost shouldn't exist, I'm just saying it should continue in handheld/2D games while console/3D games get an advancement of what was done in 06 and in ways Lost World as it too brought back mach speed in its own way.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Chris Knopps

[JezMM]

I actually personally thought the boost gameplay was exactly what happens if you take the mach speed sections from 2006 and improve them into something enjoyable that can serve as base gameplay for a full game.

 

And on the flipside, the boost gameplay in 2D is exactly where it doesn't belong.  It leads to boring or cheap level design depending on difficulty, since if you're going super fast in a 2D space, you can't see what is ahead of you (unlike the 3D boost gameplay).  For 2D games I'd rather they ditch the boost and continue trying their hardest to understand how to make new games that resemble the classics in flow and gameplay.

[Clewis]

To me the boost wears out the fun of going incredibly fast and is boring because there's no punishment asides traps/obstacles whereas Sonic going fast via mach speed means injury/death depending on your ring count.

I'm not sure I understand. It's okay for 2D/handheld games featuring the boost to have these faults, but not okay for 3D entries? If you're attempting to improve on the gameplay in one area, wouldn't you want said improvements to be applied across the whole board where it's appropriate?

[Diogenes]

I don't think the boost is a good mechanic for 2D or 3D Sonic. It overrides most of the game's other mechanics, providing near-instant acceleration, maximum speed, and a persistent attack hitbox, and requires shallow, funneling level design to accommodate it properly. Any time you're not boosting the game devolves into clumsy, limited platforming and any time you are boosting you aren't doing much else.

I don't think the mach speed sections are any better, though. There's no reason for stiff controls, autorun, or stripped-down hallway level design. I think it's possible to have fast, engaging Sonic gameplay without making him control like a train. And if it's not reasonable to have full control at a certain speed, that speed isn't worth pursuing.

[Sparky]

If I'm playing as the fastest thing alive, I want to feel like the fastest thing alive. 

When it comes to the boost, I would have preferred if they kept this game play restricted to handhelds and 2D titles.

For consoles and 3D games, I would have preferred if they improved the mach speed sections/stages in Sonic 06 and evolved it over time. To me the boost wears out the fun of going incredibly fast and is boring because there's no punishment asides traps/obstacles whereas Sonic going fast via mach speed means injury/death depending on your ring count.

When the hedgehog runs at insane speeds I prefer it to be at the risk of his life, emphasizing the urgency/danger in the moment instead of wearing out the enjoyment of super speeds by having it constantly and eliminating the dangers of going so fast save for trolling stage designs. If the hedgehog is going to go that fast, odd as it may sound, I expect him to get hurt from hitting walls/enemies and the like.

I'm not saying boost shouldn't exist, I'm just saying it should continue in handheld/2D games while console/3D games get an advancement of what was done in 06 and in ways Lost World as it too brought back mach speed in its own way.

it's pretty common knowledge that a speedster moving at super speeds is a danger to what he hits, not the other way around.

[Idon'tcare]

I'm not really fond of boosting as in my opinion its presence has lead to entire levels feeling like a super easy on rails experience with very little input required from me in order to beat the levels in question.  

Boost however, I still believe it can be a good part of the Sonic experience but it would need to reworked so it doesn't feel so much like a god mode for Sonic when its in use.

 

it's pretty common knowledge that a speedster moving at super speeds is a danger to what he hits, not the other way around.

It's pretty common knowledge to those of us who drive cars that one fast object hitting a slower or stationary object means one very messy outcome for both the speeder and the slowmo.

[Ripe]

Well, I like boost in both 3D and 2D (my opinion is only limited on 2D sections of 3D games, haven't played Rush, Colours DS or Generations 3DS) but it really isn't my preferred way in Sonic because while the sense of speed is awesome you get it by simply pushing a button. I prefer Sonic having a momentum and getting speed as a reward for doing well.

Then there is the another issue, level design. Granted, Generations had most of the time great desing (if they would had only removed 2D), same as Unleashed (haven't played that game but I think that Unleashed Mod counts) while Colours. I don't like to whole boost-to-win -accusation but 3D sections in Colours are that. And in 2D I quite rarely used boost. As a whole I do think that Boost kinda limits the design because of the faster speed but because of the Generations, I do believe that there is still potential with the formula.

And yes, boost games what I have played are easy. Easily easier than the Dreamcast-era titles (at least in the later levels). And boost makes killing enemies so easy and considering that killing enemies fills the boost meter.

[Bolt]

I really really don't enjoy 3D boost gameplay, the linearity level design it leads to is not fun to me, and I greatly miss the more free and open movement of any 3D game before Unleashed. In Rush, the boost felt fine non-hindering, but I guess linearity in 2D games is more subtle.

I don't know how else to explain that I don't enjoy 3D levels that feel more narrow than an actual 2D game!

[Haalyle]

I liked boosting.... but it depends on the game.

But seriously, I love it! I only really play Sonic games that have boosting involved (I'm not a huge fan of the spin dash to be honest). And this is towards the 3D games. I think it's perfect!

[Blacklightning]

it's pretty common knowledge that a speedster moving at super speeds is a danger to what he hits, not the other way around.

You ever hit a brick wall at Mach I with your face? Sure, you might damage or break down the wall, but there's a nigh on certain chance that you'll have a distinct lack of skull afterwards. This is equal and opposite reactions at work, and it's incredibly basic physics fare, so I'm not sure where you got your impression from.

Anyhow, I'm probably going to sound like a broken record at this stage, but I still feel the boost has a place in Sonic to some extent - just that the way it's currently designed is ridiculously, absurdly overpowered to the extent that the level design has to be relatively straight to accomodate it.  Problem one: static values. For the most part, speed was the product of acceleration and the environment around you - the only time it shot up to a specific value instantly was through spindashing, and you had to come to a complete stop for that so those two traits balance each other out. So rather than a straight up instant speed boost, make it an acceleration boost instead. It would still have an application on flat surfaces like it always has, but rolling would still take presedence whenever you have a downhill surface to work with. Problem two, and this should go without saying: you can just unconditionally run straight through every motherfucking enemy and breakable hazard in the game. Don't fucking do that.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I feel that of the problems with the Boost gameplay, one of the biggest is the lack of any other ability to overcome obstacles.

For example, if there's a wall beside you as you're running towards a pit, you can't wallrun it to get to the other side unless it's scripted for you to do that - instead, you have to either use a jump pad if it's there, homing attack enemies if they're there, or hope your momentum carries you over the pit. Have a wall in front of you? Either hope that wall breaks when you hit it, use a spring to get over it, or use an enemy to bounce higher.

Not all of these alternatives are bad in themselves, but it still highlights the problem with the boost gameplay in how rigid it is. And this is one of the things Lost World's Parkour can improve upon and grant more flexibility to getting up and around the environment in your way. That said, there is still the problem with going faster than holy hell with your controls being stiff as a result.

[shdowhunt60]

The problem I have with Sonic Lost World's parkour is that it isn't very... Flowing. Like, when I think of Sonic, I think of gameplay that has flow and rythmn to it. That's why I generally prefer Sonic 3 over the other Genesis games, the game has an excellent sense of pacing to it, and going through it is almost like instinct.

I feel like parkour is more of a Mario thing. I mean, in terms of game design. Mario isn't about having rhythm or flow, it's about having set obstacles being placed before you, and you having to come over the obstacles. That's why, even in terms of gameplay design, Sonic Lost World really reminds me of Mario than it does Sonic. It has that same kind of level design philosophy that Mario 3D Land has to it. That's my big gripe about Lost World, it doesn't just NOT look like a Mario game, it also FEELS like a Mario game... And honestly not even a very good one at that.

As for Boost, I have to agree I feel like Boost is generally far too rigid. It's fun, it's fast, but at the same time in addition to a lot of the mechanical flaws that boost game's have (poor control, cheap difficulty) it also feels like... It feels like it's far too tightly designed around the boost and other affiliated mechanics. I don't feel like it's easily adaptable to characters adding their own twist to the basic gameplay like Tails' flight, or Knuckles gliding/wall climbing. I think the Classic gameplay and the Adventure gameplay is more accommodating of having characters with the same basic gameplay design.

... Oh, and I'm totally rambling incoherently again. Sorry.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The problem I have with Sonic Lost World's parkour is that it isn't very... Flowing.

Then make it flowing? Learn where it didn't do well and improve it so that it works for Sonic?

Parkour isn't exclusive to a specific series, dude. The whole idea, if not the very definition of parkour (in real life and fictional), is to get from one point to another in a complex evironment and in the most efficient way possible. Which in any kind of game that has obstacles before you (and Sonic is one of them) is basically the very flow you're talking about - what are pits, spikes, environmental hazards, and enemies if not obstacles?

Lost World evoking the feel of another game has less to do with Parkour and more to do with that being the whole point of its design (for whatever bizarre reason), but just because Parkour is used in Mario doesn't mean it's a Mario thing.

Edited November 18, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Sparky]

I'm not really fond of boosting as in my opinion its presence has lead to entire levels feeling like a super easy on rails experience with very little input required from me in order to beat the levels in question.  

Boost however, I still believe it can be a good part of the Sonic experience but it would need to reworked so it doesn't feel so much like a god mode for Sonic when its in use.

 

It's pretty common knowledge to those of us who drive cars that one fast object hitting a slower or stationary object means one very messy outcome for both the speeder and the slowmo.

 

Super speed doesn't work that way. Speedsters are nigh-invulnerable to damage when they're moving at super speed.

[Bowbowis]

Super speed doesn't work that way. Speedsters are nigh-invulnerable to damage when they're moving at super speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvSTuLIjRm8

This is a video of the Mythbusters, firing a 50 cal. Sniper Rifle into a pool of water. According to the video the bullet is moving at a speed of 3,000 feet per second, which is a little over 2.5 times the speed of sound. To put that into perspective the bullet, travelling at a constant speed, could cross the continental United States in just under an hour, firmly placing it in the super speed category. Notice how this bullet, which by your logic should be completely impervious to damage is utterly obliterated when it hits water, it didn't keep going and hit concrete or metal, it hit the water and shattered into pieces after about three feet. That's because Newton's third law dictates that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, when two objects collide they will experience the exact same amount of force from the collision regardless of their relative speeds. Don't believe me? Go try punching a brick wall and see for yourself.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Bowbowis
Fixed my really, really stupid mistake regarding the speed of the bullet. Thanks for pointing that out CSS.

[Diogenes]

That is true in the real world, but fiction suspends it, because it wouldn't be any fun for your super-speed hero to turn into a bloody smear the first time they skim against a solid surface.

[Bowbowis]

That is true in the real world, but fiction suspends it, because it wouldn't be any fun for your super-speed hero to turn into a bloody smear the first time they skim against a solid surface.

Of course, this is fictionland so breaks from real world physics are acceptable to a certain degree. Still no matter how durable he may have been shown to be it is pretty ridiculous that Sonic can simply plow face first into things without suffering any ill effects. Instant death may not be a good idea but it's not unreasonable to expect a head on collision with a slab of solid rock to carry some risk of injury and/or pain, be it serious or slapstick in nature. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

OK I dont have much intellgent to say for here but I wanna be here. I really like the boost gameplay and its one of my favorite Sonic powers. When I think about it more to why I love it so much I think I do because of the speeds and how I can use my skill to make it go while. I like it in both 2D and 3D and I hope it comes back as a option to chose from.

however perhaps the OP is right that it doesnt really belong in 2D. I can accept that because it kinda gives cheap dificulty and it doesnt belong with the level design at all. Maybe do it like Sonic Colors where you need powerups to fill your boost line and those are the only way to do it or like Sonic Rush and do with tricks that way your boost is earned. 

[FriendBot]

Yeah, not a big fan of the Boost either for similar reasons why Diogenes doesn't like it.

It's just too shallow for my tastes and the level design don't feel like actual levels but mere obstacle courses.

But if I were to tweak the Boost to make it less OP is to rather  make the Boost more like the Boost Mode in Advance 2 and 3, the more rings you have, the quicker you reach Boost Mode and of course, you still have the invincibility against enemies and stuff. Also it would really nice to implement Parkour with the Boost as well since not only does it prevent awkward pauses when you're not boosting but I really do have a strong belief that the Parkour can provide some really nice level design. So yeah, there's my thoughts.

[GUILD]

Agreed. Sonic Rush was pretty great. They should just keep it there and give the consoles a Speed Up button that gets you to your top normal running speed quickly and quickly with to allow you to quickly regain your lost momentum, recover from setbacks to get you back on track and swift yourself up hills against gravity. I want that, not push square and you're fucking OFF and out of there at beyond top speed lmao. Losing all speed and having to work against gravity to build up some kind of momentum was so infuriating to me as a fan. I didn't wanted to use the spindash cause I wanted a bit more control and on the spot movement for what I wanted to do next. Obviously boost is a no no, and Homing attack didn't always work either. I wanna stay on the ground, but I also wanna get going again. I wanna play and enjoy a Sonic stage with just a way to quickly pick up the pace and get the ball rolling again when things get slogged down. That's what I thought Lost World had when I saw the difference between his normal running and the footage of when he had his hands back and the wind was kinda streaming past him. The boost thing is cool or whatever but damn come on lol. There's almost no challenge at all. I typically couldn't care less about the mach speed levels, but if just for the sake of seeing Sonic go uber ridiculously fast in some desperate plot related scenario or whatever the heck cause you wanna seem him do it lol, something like that could work for a mach speed section where he's already going at top speed, but the boosting meter allows him to go even further beyond. Can't lie, those levels are pretty cool, but let them be very sparse. That's not all I want to play..not by a longshot lol. 06 had the right feel for it I think in terms of how often you played those levels.

Anyways, If you really need a way to rocket off at an invincible top speed during the middle of the level, just give us the damn spindash lmao. That's what it was for and it's his most iconic move.

[GUILD]

I don't think the boost is a good mechanic for 2D or 3D Sonic. It overrides most of the game's other mechanics, providing near-instant acceleration, maximum speed, and a persistent attack hitbox, and requires shallow, funneling level design to accommodate it properly. Any time you're not boosting the game devolves into clumsy, limited platforming and any time you are boosting you aren't doing much else.

I don't think the mach speed sections are any better, though. There's no reason for stiff controls, autorun, or stripped-down hallway level design. I think it's possible to have fast, engaging Sonic gameplay without making him control like a train. And if it's not reasonable to have full control at a certain speed, that speed isn't worth pursuing.

Agreed.

[Sparky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvSTuLIjRm8

This is a video of the Mythbusters, firing a 50 cal. Sniper Rifle into a pool of water. According to the video the bullet is moving at a speed of 30,000 feet per second, which is just a little under mach 27, or 27 times the speed of sound. To put that into perspective the bullet, travelling at a constant speed, could circumnavigate the equator of the Earth in under 23 minutes, firmly placing it in the super speed category. Notice how this bullet, which by your logic should be completely impervious to damage is utterly obliterated when it hits water, it didn't keep going and hit concrete or metal, it hit the water and shattered into pieces after about three feet. That's because Newton's third law dictates that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, when two objects collide they will experience the exact same amount of force from the collision regardless of their relative speeds. Don't believe me? Go try punching a brick wall and see for yourself.

Someone with the power of super speed is nigh-invulnerable when moving at high speeds because of how the ability of super speed works. It has nothing to do with a bullet or an average person moving at that same speed.

[Diogenes]

It has nothing to do with how super speed "works", because super speed isn't a real thing. Or rather, the way super speed works is by being fictional, and because it's fictional they can declare that it works in whatever way is convenient for the story they want to tell. If a writer wanted to tell a story where a character with super speed turned himself into chunky salsa by running into a brick wall, then super speed wouldn't offer any protection in that story.

[Idon'tcare]

Super speed doesn't work that way. Speedsters are nigh-invulnerable to damage when they're moving at super speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZjhxuhTmGk

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvSTuLIjRm8

This is a video of the Mythbusters, firing a 50 cal. Sniper Rifle into a pool of water. According to the video the bullet is moving at a speed of 30,000 feet per second, which is just a little under mach 27, or 27 times the speed of sound.

Bro, you're off by a factor of 10 - the video says 3000 feet.

Doesn't make what you said less true tho. But sniper rounds at Mach 27? That would make missiles worthless.