What defines the post Unleashed era to you?

[Nepenthe]

People have actually given working examples time and time again; whether you were in any of the other topics to read them is a different story. But to say no one has actually pointed to past games and given specific examples is complete and utter hogwash rooted firmly in your own myopia versus the linguistic competence of those disparaging Colors et. al for not being passion-fueled games.

But I'll humor you: Sean gave a working example with how they developed Sonic Adventure, and SA1 has been cited as a go-to example for months and months. Taking the time to travel to South America and take their own pictures for the sake of the game's textures and inspiration for the Mystic Ruins area and characters is a direct example of the "use references taken from life or a place that interests the makers" part and could also be an indirect example of the "personalize the key players of the team part" of my post. Having a stage in the game that's disguised as pinball and punishes losers by dropping them in the sewer, effectively hiding the more efficient Sonic gameplay through a contextually comedic lens (and perhaps remarking about the state of earning money at casinos), is an indicator that someone on a team had a concept that was awesome because it was both comedically subversive and also because it fit into the world they were building, not because it was actually necessary since- as the classics have proved- you can have a casino-themed Sonic level.

Sonic Unleashed is another old-ass example and by and large the primary one. We know who Yohsihisa Hashimoto is not because some intrepid Retro person trawled through the credits but because the dude was proud enough to put his name and visage to the project and to talk about it everywhere. We also know a couple of other female Sonic Team members who had a hilarious Japanese blog showing life at Sonic Team through the child-like use of Sonic figurines. We know about Ohtani's inspirations about the music through an interview that Hashimoto- not some PR outlet (who by and large don't give enough of a shit about Sonic music anyway to have bothered with the games all that much afterwards)- conducted with him. We can look at the game and make extensive observations about the subtext concerning the thematic connections between travel, food, and friendship, which is something that generally only comes about when artists care enough to sit down and hash this kind of lower layer, textual stuff out with one another. In-game shorts produced on the side as unlockables is also another hint that perhaps Sonic Team were perhaps really giddy and excited to explore this world through multiple means.

We didn't get any of this kind of thing for the Sonic Team-produced games after Unleashed, probably because the people tearing into the game didn't give a shit about any of that. The lack of insight into the developmental processes and the minds of the people working there has completely diluted the personality of the team itself and gives the impression that they are making games more by committee than they are any overwhelming interest in the games' artistic merits. Seriously, people who are passionate about things talk about those things to other people. Hell, Azoo talks about classic game mechanics in depth, I talk about Furry shit and have made a business out of it, Felix talks about Smash Bros, and it goes on and on because these things interest us and we want to share our excitement with other people. On the other hand, I personally don't give a fuck about talking about my phone or other phones because I have absolutely zero passion in talking about phones, even though I have to use one. Honestly, having to quantify this kind of concept just seriously baffles.

[azoo]

Nep hit the nail on the head.

Though let me say again, it may not all necessarily be because they don't care (though that could be part of it), but moreso that they're constrained on budget/time as well as afraid to make risks anymore. Granted, that's for good reason since Sonic's stranger ideas have almost never turned out well, but it seems like it's secluded them into a corner where they don't want to try to do anything big, in fear that it's gonna blow up in their faces.

[Nepenthe]

But the frustration of that is that this stupidly huge and terrifying risk we're asking them to do was pulled off decently in 1998 with shittier hardware and standards to contend with. For fans of classic physics it's even moreso. That's what undercuts this entire issue.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[J&/MA/MC]

Can't help but recognizing a famous experiment being recreated here.

[Kuzu]

 

But the frustration of that is that this stupidly huge and terrifying risk we're asking them to do was pulled off decently in 1998 with shittier hardware and standards to contend with. For fans of classic physics it's even moreso. That's what undercuts this entire issue.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Don't you know, that game from 1998 never had anything decent to offer in the slightest because it was on inferior hardware :V

But yea, I don't know how many times people have posted essays like the one Nepenthe posted explaining this shit. Its like everyone just straight up forgot about all of the interesting developer insights, and commentaries that the series has had over the years and can't notice that the development process has changed significantly ever since Unleashed. But sure, things have always been like this I guess and we're just butthurt fans longing for the good ole days. :V

Edited December 18, 2015 by Kuzu the Boloedge

[Chaos Incarnate]

Missed potential. Colors and Generations, while still flawed ,  were fun games that laid the groundwork for other games to follow suit, yet we got Lost World and Sonic Boom instead. Just ugh.  Hope the 2016 title can bring back the series' upward momentum it started gaining after Colors. 

[Regen]

It's pretty funny. To me, the Post-Unleashed era indicated a very real comeback for Sonic that was totally squandered. There was Sonic 4, which I know we all hated but a lot of other people in the general public liked it. We had Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations, which are slightly divisive in the fanbase but most fans and the general public liked them. We even had good spin off titles, such as the Sonic Racing games, which are pretty fucking fantastic. 

Then we got Sonic Lost World, which no one really cares about, and Sonic Boom which bombed the whole franchise.

I remember in 2013 that Sonic wasn't a complete laughing stock anymore, people actually had some high expectations for Lost World because the Sonic franchise had been well received for 3 years. Of course, that's all been thrown away. 

For me, it's fucking miserable.

I view the Post-Unleashed era as a different era to Post-Lost World. It's funny how a lot of fans are bitter about the Post-Unleashed era because those 3 years in the Post-Unleashed era were a time of Sonic bliss for me, I was sure that Sonic was healed. Now it's back to the Post-Shadow era of being fucked. 

[FriendBot]

Well since a good amount of people have listed what’s going on in the latest direction of the main series, can’t really say that I can add on to that list.

But as for my current feeling, I’m personally ok with it. The stories has ranged from decent (Shattered Crystal/Lost World) to not very good (Free Riders/Generations) but I can enjoy a simple story if it’s filled with a good amount of character moments and stuff like that. But I feel that the simplicity isn’t well utilized but I can’t really blame Pontac and Graff, I mean if they spent a good amount of their writing career with cute animals being ripped and torn apart in gruesome ways and then get hired to write a pre-established and popular action/adventure gaming franchise, those are some big shoes to fill and the fact that Pontaff wasn’t really given much detail on the lore of the series (it’s pretty messy but it can be managed, Flynn cleaned it up pretty well) as well didn’t really put in a lot of research themselves but hey, if your employers didn’t bother to give you some sort of series bible then one can only assume that it’s not really all that necessary but what do I know. One thing I can say pretty positively about the Pontaff’s writing is that Eggman is definitely a lot more enjoyable to see in the games, though I will agree he could use some more villain points but I still enjoy see ol’ Eggs Benedict Herald goofing off and such. The friendship between Sonic and Tails is definitely at its strongest since I never really felt the broship between the two in previous games, Tails jokingly mocks Sonic’s weird habits is pretty funny (one of the more enjoyable cutscenes in Colors) and stuff like that. Though Pontaff did do a hiccup with Tails in Lost World but I would definitely like to see that side of Tails more but, you know, actually be done well. :P

The humor is pretty hit-or-miss, I enjoy the jokes from Eggman but I can’t say most of jokes Sonic says were chuckleworthy (especially in Colors) but I definitely liked some of the jokes in Lost World since Sonic does bounce off the D6 quite well, that interaction between Sonic and Zazz for the first time was pretty funny. Overall, Pontaff could do better but I feel they got something going with Lost World, hopefully if they get more time and spend more time developing the characters and worlds then I’ll be in good terms with them.

The gameplay is something I feel a bit mixed to be honest, I’m pretty sure a good amount of people are aware I’m not the biggest fan of Colors but I can agree that it is a good game but I just can’t say it’s a good Sonic game with a straight face. It doesn’t feel like I’m playing a Sonic game when I played it, it felt more like a Nintendo-y Mega Man styled game with some of Sonic’s moves with decent powers. Maybe if I play it again, I might warm up to it then so who knows. Generations is better but I still feel like something’s missing in it, the levels/bosses are nicely designed and visually look great. The games feels a bit empty if people get what I’m saying, doesn’t help that the story is pretty abysmal and lacks a lot of energy (which makes the climax feel awkward since THEN it had some sort of energy/conflict going but for the rest of the story, it was pretty lifeless). Like this game is to celebrate 20 FREAKING YEARS of Sonic but it feels so half-hearted as a whole, there was plenty of effort into the gameplay and music but its story and overall atmosphere outside of the levels is just so empty, it’s hard to describe it but it’s a huge reason why I can’t say Gens is better than Unleashed as a whole even if Gens’ gameplay is a lot more polished.

Lost World, I can safely say is a pretty good game though. It was very experimental but then again, so was Adventure 1 (1/6^th actual Sonic gameplay, another 1/6^th fishing, wut?!). But I feel some sort of energy in Lost World but it’s a pretty unfocused one but I can feel that Sonic Team really wanted to try a lot of things with it while Colors feels kind of dull and by-the-books, to me atleast. I also really like the Deadly Six; they’re probably my favorite non-Eggman villains yet!

And then there’s the Sonic Boom subseries.

Well first off, I love the show quite a bit. It looks great and it can be quite hilarious and clever in some episodes as well. Rise of Lyric though was actually a decent game, unfinished definitely but after a recent 100% run, I did enjoy playing through it. One thing’s for sure is that the voicework is pretty awesome and I do find of the dialogue to be quite humorous though that might be the case since Denton, Hahn and Freiberger did wrote some of the dialogue. The story is very basic and it did a pretty poor job introducing the Boom universe to newcomers. So yeah, I feel that Rise of Lyric is a decent but unfinished game (and there goes all my credibility. Well atleast the small amount I did have). Shattered Crystal is an ok game; the story was decent enough I guess, helps that Shadow in SC was portrayed and voiced quite well and some of the character interactions were nice and funny as well but it’s kind of hard to get super invested with the in-game cutscenes though but the CG scenes were pretty cool. The gameplay is decent, using different character with a single button press is a cool concept but I feel that Sanzaru can do a lot more with that gameplay style hopefully they’ll do so with Fire & Ice.

There are also those mobile games, I played through Jump, Dash, some Runners and Jump Fever but I never got to Dash 2 but, outside of Runners, the mobile games are pretty decent helps that the StealthTax remasters of Sonic 1, 2 and CD are pretty great as well! Also SEGA’s latest move to port a bunch of SEGA games into Steam is a good move, I mean the modding community for Generations is still active even after 4 years! So I’d say SEGA pulled a good move there.

I guess I could talk about the All-Star Racing games; I only really played SEGA All-Stars Racing (the Wii version) and really liked it. I was able to master it pretty easily and had a blast playing through it during my visit to Paris during the summer of 2010. As for Transformed, I’ve only played the demo so far but from I know, it’s definitely a lot more challenging than the first one, had trouble controlling the Plane mode so since I got the Steam verison (Thanks @Falonso14, you glorious bastard) maybe I’ll play through it and see how it is. Oh yeah, Free Riders…. Umm, I’ve gave it as birthday present to my close friend, (yes I know I’m an asshole what else is new) and I’ve only play through a couple of the tutorial stages and say the story…. It’s not good…. Like at all… next!

Oh geez, I completely forgot about Sonic 4, shows how forgettable it was. Yeah, it’s not as great as 3&K also when I think about it, was a Sonic 4 ever really needed? I mean, 3&K have a nice satisfying conclusion to the classic games so I don’t any real reason to continue that line, not saying they shouldn’t make a classic-styled Sonic game but naming it Sonic 4 gives the game a high expectation, which it failed to meet. Episode I had nice level design if it wasn’t for the abundance of springs and dash panels, each level had some sort of in-level gimmick to make each level unique to play through which is pretty cool! Episode II looked a lot better but I can’t say the level design was all that great but I did love seeing Metal coming back and his boss battles were challenging and fun to play through.

I think that’s all I can really say about the current direction of Sonic. In terms of story, the simplicity route can be better but Lost World had something going. Colors I still feel pretty mixed with, Gens is good but feels pretty empty outside of the gameplay, Lost World was an interesting game and would like to see its better elements be a mainstay with Sonic’s moveset (Parkour or bust!). Boom has a very good show in its belt but it can do MUCH better in terms of games, F&I don’t you FUCKING dare fail on me, I pre-ordered you dammit! Oh yeah, the Archie Comics are at its peak and love reading a new issue!

[Idon'tcare]

So I read a lot of the responses here and thought about it some more and I think I can safely say that what really defines the post Unleashed era to me is a lack of communication.

Clearly SEGA or Sonicteam or both of them has a problem when it comes to communicating within their own company and outside of it. We've all heard how the writers for Sonic Colors got zero info from SEGA/Sonicteam in regards to the Sonic cast. But more clearly within the last two years is the completely failure in regards to having any kind of communication between the various Sonic Boom developers, how else does one explain just how different each part is from one another and none of them seems to connect together despite that being a stated purpose. More bizarre is why BRB would even begin working with a game engine that doesn't work well on the target console, unless SEGA failed to tell BRB it was going onto the WII U until fairly late into development.

Another clear issue is the weirdness around the Sonic 4 games. Here we have a episodic game produced and sold on the premise of developer/fan communication to ensure its as close to what fans would like as possible, yet despite a very large amount of feedback presented to the SEGA PR staff, it didn't feel like a lot of the actual gameplay feedback and recommendations were even passed on to DIMPs. That the more vocal fans had issues with wording their feedback is also a problem, saying the games physics doesn't work is one thing, but not explaining what the problems is but rather linking to youtube videos or saying they should go play a game isn't the correct approach.

With Sonic Generations and Lost World we really see a clear communications issue, the two games represent just how little feedback SEGA actual reads as Generations got a lot of praise and was well received yet was slammed for failing to really use all of its included material like the large cast merely just being there, content cut for no real reason and very linear gameplay.  Yet the next game presented was a Sonic game with a clear Mario Galaxy copy paste gimmick along with Sonicteam openly stating they were producing SLW to capture the attention and cash of Mario fans since their own fandom is too hard to please. That's the worse kind of communication you as company can engage in, you don't dismiss your entire customer base while openly stating you're going to be appealing to your competitor's customers with your new product, that's just going to drive off the ones who will buy your junk. 

I don't know, does this even make sense?

How does a fan communicate to SEGA/Sonicteam that you like their products but it would be better if they did this instead of that when they keep giving off the feeling of having zero interest in listing to anything their entire customer base says about their products.

[J&/MA/MC]

Ok, if I were to describe what defines the recession era Sonic games, it's one word;

Reduction.

Everything is reduced. Even stuff that needs elaboration, such as the franchise tied message of nature vs. technology, is reduced. But making Eggmans dystopia as elaborate as Rapture/Columbia might be too scary, right?

Even aesthetically, there's a cynicism going on with all these happy-go-lucky environments we've gotten so far. As if complexity and realism is too challenging for the player to handle. Some of the comments on those "Sonic in Unreal Engine" videos suggests that.

[Diogenes]

Even aesthetically, there's a cynicism going on with all these happy-go-lucky environments we've gotten so far. As if complexity and realism is too challenging for the player to handle. Some of the comments on those "Sonic in Unreal Engine" videos suggests that.

...??? ???????????

It's not that players can't "handle" realism, it's that Sonic the Hedgehog is not realistic. Sonic is a cartoon character, he's Mickey Mouse with a sharper smirk. His world was fantastic and stylized from the start, and he's always looked alien when forced into realistic environments. If you think Lost World or some other game took it too far in that direction, that's an argument you can make, but it makes no sense to act like not pursuing photorealism is some kind of weakness or insult.

[J&/MA/MC]

...??? ???????????

It's not that players can't "handle" realism, it's that Sonic the Hedgehog is not realistic. Sonic is a cartoon character, he's Mickey Mouse with a sharper smirk. His world was fantastic and stylized from the start, and he's always looked alien when forced into realistic environments. If you think Lost World or some other game took it too far in that direction, that's an argument you can make, but it makes no sense to act like not pursuing photorealism is some kind of weakness or insult.

That's exactly what I meant with "reduction". Reducing Sonic to just "cartoon character" is a bit disingenuous. He's not just a cartoon character. He's a cartoon character from the 90's and the 90's had one thing in mind; contrasts. What we've seen of Sonic since the recession is the opposite of that.

[Diogenes]

What "contrasts" from the series' early games are you not seeing in the recent ones?

[Idon'tcare]

What "contrasts" from the series' early games are you not seeing in the recent ones?

Umm, the question is not for me, but one contrast I'm seeing between the modern and older games is a lot of cheesy jokes... Sure Sonic could crack a joke back in the day but these days he's acting like an amateur stand up comedian on open mike night.

[FriendBot]

Umm, the question is not for me, but one contrast I'm seeing between the modern and older games is a lot of cheesy jokes... Sure Sonic could crack a joke back in the day but these days he's acting like an amateur stand up comedian on open mike night.

So Sonic is now like Sans?

That's amazing, everyone love Sans!

 

[Badnik Mechanic]

 Sure Sonic could crack a joke back in the day but these days he's acting like an amateur stand up comedian on open mike night.

So I take it you've never seen an episode of this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPtPsoHBtT4

Or read any early archie. Or any of the old ladybird books, or some of fleetway comics or even in SatAM he was cracking the odd joke or two. 

Sonic wasn't ever 'funny' or cracked jokes in the games because up until Sonic 3D he never really said a word, but good golly the supporting material around it was certainly full of jokes and humour... there's even this for goodness sake.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Hogfather

[Lord-Dreamerz]

Even aesthetically, there's a cynicism going on with all these happy-go-lucky environments we've gotten so far. As if complexity and realism is too challenging for the player to handle. Some of the comments on those "Sonic in Unreal Engine" videos suggests that.

Or... ya know... maybe some folk just prefer non-realism styles? Nothing wrong or Inferior with surreal cartoon styles.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Or... ya know... maybe some folk just prefer non-realism styles? Nothing wrong or Inferior with surreal cartoon styles.

The Genesis games had a bit of both and what is intresting is that the lighting they added makes things a little more realistic.

[Agie]

Promises of actually getting it together getting casually tossed aside in favor of going back to old habits...I really can't think up much beyond parroting what others have said.

I can say say this, though...I really think of Colors and Generations as lucky flukes, though, and if not for the critical success of those, I think we'd be here two or three years sooner. I enjoyed Sonic Lost Worl, but even I gotta admit it was a noticeable step back.

As things stand, the franchise is probably in the worst shape it's been in; even the 2000s had the handheld side to fall back on, and now it doesn't even have that on its side.

Edited December 20, 2015 by SurrealBrain

[Soniman]

 

As things stand, the franchise is probably in the worst shape it's been in; even the 2000s had the handheld side to fall back on, and now it doesn't even have that on its side.

highly debateable, ill take Gens, Colors, SLW over most things from the Shadow-pre unleashed era that wasnt Rush

Edited December 20, 2015 by Soniman

[Idon'tcare]

Words.

 

Let's see, I've watched AOSTH, Satam, Underground, the OVA movie, Read Archie Sonic from issue 78 to 251but I was referring to the games not all the side material you know.

And frankly the jokes have been both increasing and getting worse ever since Unleashed in the games.

But again this is a subject that is dependent on your taste in comedy. I don't like cheesy drawn out jokes but if you do, then hey that's good.

[Diogenes]

I think the bigger point is that cheesy jokes are in-character for pretty much every version of Sonic. If you don't find the recent jokes funny or if you think there's too many of them that's one thing, but having them is not some fundamental change to the series.

[Badnik Mechanic]

but I was referring to the games not all the side material you know.

 

Yes we know that, you made that pretty obvious, but if you are going to efficiently say Sonic never cracked jokes or was supposed to be funny. Sorry but you're completely wrong, especially given how much Sega would enforce and issue direct/guidelines to all the license holders back in the day. 

Sonic was and has always cracked jokes, you can say he's not supposed to as much as you like, but the fact is, Sonic has always been strongly linked with a comedy genre.

I don't like cheesy drawn out jokes but if you do, then hey that's good.

I don't remember commenting on whether or not I like the jokes used in the Sonic series.

[Nepenthe]

Idon'tcare never said there has never been any humor in the games or rest of the franchise whatsoever. He's saying that there's been a notable increase of it at the expense of something else within the narrative, which I don't know how anyone can actually deny that.

[Vertekins]

I'd accept more jokiness out of Sonic, out of the games as of the past few years more if it was actually, you know, funny and characteristic of the series.

It isn't the vast majority of the time. And whatsmore, the fixation on "comedy" punts-aside interesting characterization and actual plot development. For every cutscene say, in Colours that fixated on asinine translator mishaps, there was time to elaborate upon plot points that ultimately ended-up not going anywhere such as whatever happened to Yacker. This is why I feel that the tone of the games as of the last few years is practically just as bad as the obnoxious try-hard dark and edgy crap we got in Shadow and '06 because it's just as badly executed and out-of-place.