*(Sonic the Hedgehog - Were The Tone/Atmosphere/Demographic Changes Necessary?)*

[Chris Knopps]

I'm sorry to be this horribly blunt, but it's very hard for me to take your OP seriously when it has so many ludicrous statements and assumptions. The notion that Sonic has been a series with a heavy focus on plot/lore from the very beginning is...literally not true at all. I cannot comprehend how you could think that Sonic 1 or 2 focus heavily on "plot", and even CD and 3&K take a little bit of stretching. Sure, they had plot, and that plot wasn't totally unimportant or inconsequential, but it seems bizarre to claim it was a major focus.

Heck, even if we're only looking at, say, the Adventure era, the idea that the series had a focus on "lore" holds virtually no water. Even when it tries to take itself seriously, everything is so underdeveloped, un-fleshed-out, and inconsistent that that word just doesn't apply.

This just makes me want to laugh. I don't like the food levels and over-cartooniness too much either, and some people do exaggerate how cartoony the classic games were, but to act as though the series had a consistently realistic style from the very beginning to 2008...well, I'm vacillating between "an oversimplification" and "downright wrong".

Anyway, I guess I'd just ask you to please justify these statements, especially the ones about Sonic being focused on plot from the beginning, with some sort of actual evidence. Show me that Sega/Sonic Team was INTENDING to create a plot-heavy, lore-heavy experience from the very beginning. Because right now, I'm detecting high levels of conjecture and personal interpretation.

I'm not even going to discuss whether or not the series is going in a good or bad direction until we actually resolve whether your assumption that the series has been on this one specific trajectory from 1991 - 2008 is correct.

Still not sure why people have a sense of spite in some of their responses... Wasn't figuring on a SEGA Forums vibe here, but here's my explanation nonetheless.

You see, from the start the franchise had an emphasis on the story/lore of the world around you. The original series built upon themselves through most of the titles on both the Genesis and GameGear in various ways. Things became deeper and deeper in each game, you met more characters, and the story evolved itself with every title. You had the greatest amount in Sonic 3&K of course, but CD pushed this just as much since the two titles were so cinematic. Plus you had Tails Adventure to boot and such. Story was always being emphasized in every game, some more-so than others obviously.

And this continued throughout the series existence on both consoles and handhelds until 2008, when afterwards story was basically... A matter of WHAT story?

Granted many try to say "pssshhh whatever it's Sonic story is nothing" but the fact is story is what always pushed Sonic forward as much as the game play. It was a part of the evolution of the franchise from the very start.

Regarding the realism of the franchise, from 1991 through 2008 the franchise had a heavy focus on realism with just enough fantasy to give it a magic sense. You felt like he was in the real world, yet at the same time was in a place somewhere within your dreams. It wasn't until Colors-Now that things warped into a purely Mario-esque NiGHTS hybrid kind of world in every game.

Of course you had the special stages, but for the most part the jungles, ancient ruins, factories, the cities, they were all realistic for the most part. Places you felt like you could go to anytime in your own world, and it was part of what made the franchise so relatable to the audience. Colors-Now, you just can't relate to the worlds like you used to. yes they had fantasy like a giant floating island, but even the locations on the island maintained its realism.

Granted this may seem odd or unbelievable to you, but then again you've likely never thought about the topic much from this kind of perspective.

 

[azoo]

Okay, so first thing's first.

The Sonic series last had a truly consistent style between 1991 - 1997, and even then that was clouded up in America and Europe by Sega's stellar western marketing and liberal usage of alternate canons throwing the image and style of the series wherever the widdly diddly fizzedy-uck they wanted it to be, which more often than not was as far away from the source material as possible.

By Sonic Adventure, the entire series from all fronts got redesigned to an extent but kept the spirit and tone of the series as seen in the previous games the way they were (despite the dosage of extra 90s edge), and all was pretty good. Then, come 2001, and then the tone was slipping away for something progressively more serious, realistic and tryhard, but stayed just close enough to remain recognizable and likable (still, they were big-time pushing it).

This tonal unity lasted (somewhat) through the Advance series (or at least the first two), but then suddenly the era of Heroes and Sonic X came about and everything went tits up in anime-trope-tier flanderization and careless sloppy writing / idea distribution, was continuing to sink farther down into the deep narmy and money-grubby depths with Shadow's game, and THEN 06 brought the series to it's absolute truest hell of extreme realism and fake depth, with only the very-admirable-but-negligible Rush series and the conceptually baffling Storybook games trying to hold it together at it's tearing seams.

Granted, Unleashed saved us from the nothing we'd become in regards of the series going into full style renaissance (despite that being all-but-burned-alive by critics because Werehog), but whenever anyone says the series was one solid consistent tone between 1991 - 2008 then I don't know what the funk they're talking about.

Second..

The Sonic series is a series about a superfast wanderlusting blue hedgehog who travels the world, usually with his younger brother / best friend, in pursuit of making new friends, while occasionally (and by that I mean often) having to collect magical gemstones with huge mythological backgrounds in his world to protect The Planet As Cool And Blue As He™ from a hammy self-absorbed scientist with a wicked bad case of megalomania and endless money/resources to fund his never-ending robot regime. Also that guy wants the gems, because they're really powerful and can do very good or bad things depending on who has them, so uhh crap.

This description kinda shows the facets of what the Sonic series has to offer. Does it seem like something really light, super zany and non-serious at all times? No, though it's definitely capable of making light of itself. But does it sound extremely serious or anywhere near realistic? Hmm, no, not that either, even though it can get intense with high stakes when it's appropriate.

You see, Sonic in it's ideal state is somewhere in the middle of this. There's comedy and slapstick and zaniness here and there, but at others there's action, drama, worldbuilding and emotion! Think of action-adventure-comedy movies and TV shows that reflect this. For good examples, look at Star Wars or Indiana Jones, or look at the Teen Titans cartoon from the 2000s, or even the current Marvel superhero films. Heck, look at some shonen anime like One Piece or Dragonball (pre-Z), or even look at other games like Ratchet & Clank and the like.

There's a balance, and the Sonic series' storytelling at his best is always within it, because that's when it feels the most genuine and wholehearted. To make us go at each other picking sides on SA2/06 kinda stories versus Colors/Lost World kind of stories is pretty dumb whenever IMO neither kind are the best it can do.

 

Edited December 28, 2015 by Azoo

[WakanoBaka]

I agree with Chris, the whole franchise seemed very story focus, and the realism was always there, with a lil abstract to it.

[Chris Knopps]

To make us go at each other picking sides on SA2/06 kinda stories versus Colors/Lost World kind of stories is pretty dumb whenever IMO neither kind are the best it can do.

 

I agree with your post for the most part and that's what I'm getting at really. Doesn't matter if it's a fast blue hedgehog after an evil egg shaped man, fact is the franchise is as much about its stories as much as its game play at the end of the day throughout its existence. Although stories Colors-Now are... Well, call them stories if you want, fact is they're still there in every game nonetheless.

Only thing I wanted to say is that in this sentence of yours that is not the intention of this thread.

And appreciated WakanoBaka.

[Clewis]

Of course you had the special stages, but for the most part the jungles, ancient ruins, factories, the cities, they were all realistic for the most part. Places you felt like you could go to anytime in your own world, and it was part of what made the franchise so relatable to the audience. Colors-Now, you just can't relate to the worlds like you used to. yes they had fantasy like a giant floating island, but even the locations on the island maintained its realism.

I think you're exaggerating.

The environments found in Colors, Sonic 4 Episode 2, and Generations aren't any more extravagant than those found in CD or Heroes. I'll give you the fact that Lost World's aesthetic approach was a bit more "out there", but Lost World in general felt highly experimental in a lot of areas, and I wouldn't be surprised if the next game featured more down-to-earth locations like before.

[Chris Knopps]

I think you're exaggerating.

The environments found in Colors, Sonic 4 Episode 2, and Generations aren't any more extravagant than those found in CD or Heroes. I'll give you the fact that Lost World's aesthetic approach was a bit more "out there", but Lost World in general felt highly experimental in a lot of areas, and I wouldn't be surprised if the next game featured more down-to-earth locations like before.

 

I... Have NO idea what to expect out of the next game after Colors-Now, especially after Lost World.

NO idea...

But realistic, yet given touches of an abstract look is my personally preferred Sonic franchise, which was the case for most titles until the post 08 series began.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Chris Knopps

[Clewis]

But realistic, yet given touches of an abstract look is my personally preferred Sonic franchise, which was the case for most titles until the post 08 series began.

That's interesting, since "realistic, yet somewhat abstract" is exactly how I would describe the art style featured in Unleashed, Colors, and Generations.

But each to their own, I suppose.

[azoo]

That's part of my problem with the argument here. It feels like the amount of realism and serious elements in the games you're defending is exaggerated, just like the statements that the style of the recent games as far more silly in tone and surreal in style are.

That said I'm not arguing that the recent games haven't taken themselves much less seriously and aren't written very carelessly, because I agree with that completely. I just for all my being cannot look at any of the classic games' art styles for example, and tell myself it's only slightly abstract and mostly realistic, because it's honestly not. It's cartoony and vibrant, with dots of realism thrown in at occasion, but never outliving the surreal fantasy element. That's Sonic for ya.

And Unleashed, Colors and Generations keep that look, though in somewhat different ways. Even Unleashed, which has more realism than most other games in the series, is still undeniably cartoony in tone and look, and Colors and Gens' environments blend extremely well into the style Unleashed introduced.

Nothing about that art style screams concern to me at all, unless you're worried about the next game looking like Lost World. Which it might keep a few bits from, but I'm not expecting tubes and flat colors by any means.

 

Edited December 29, 2015 by Azoo

[PandoloFox]

That's part of my problem with the argument here. It feels like the amount of realism and serious elements in the games you're defending is exaggerated, just like the statements that the style of the recent games as far more silly in tone and surreal in style are.

That said I'm not arguing that the recent games haven't taken themselves much less seriously and aren't written very carelessly, because I agree with that completely. I just for all my being cannot look at any of the classic games' art styles for example, and tell myself it's only slightly abstract and mostly realistic, because it's honestly not. It's cartoony and vibrant, with dots of realism thrown in at occasion. That's Sonic for ya.

And Unleashed, Colors and Generations keep that look, though in somewhat different ways. Even Unleashed, which has more realism than most other games in the series, is still undeniably cartoony in tone and look, and Colors and Gens' environments blend extremely well into the style Unleashed introduced.

Nothing about that art style screams concern to me at all, unless you're worried about the next game looking like Lost World. Which it might keep a few bits from, but I'm not expecting tubes and flat colors by any means.

 

I would sum it all up as Segas personal style realy. Mostly when i look at sonic games i see the realism that chris is talking about, just that its a surreal form of it all. Sega in general featured this kind of style during the whole genesis era since actualy making something realistic looking would be hard on such a limited console. Games that were intentionaly more realistic like streets of rage and thunder blade didnt look super realistic either. And while thunder blade definately have the more realistic edge, its not very pretty looking. That being the case, ofcourse they would go with more vibrant colors. And yes, sonic isnt meant to be super realistic, but the actual realism is in the backgrounds and the enviroments that you visit. Its dream like worlds, but they look like actual places ( hell, a lot of them are based on real places ). So in this case when people like chris refers to "realism" i think it has more to do with the landscape what you are interacting with, it has real shapes and arnt just wierd abstract objects floating in the sky and it has somewhat grounded ideas ( while still breaking them with power gems and such ).

 

[Diogenes]

You felt like he was in the real world, yet at the same time was in a place somewhere within your dreams.

What the hell does this even mean, seriously. How do Sonic games feel like the real world and a dream world at the same time? How do Green Hill, Casinopolis, the Death Egg, and anything in CD feel like the real world?

[Chris Knopps]

What the hell does this even mean, seriously. How do Sonic games feel like the real world and a dream world at the same time? How do Green Hill, Casinopolis, the Death Egg, and anything in CD feel like the real world?

Go to the tropics on drugs and tell me you don't see yourself in Green Hill Zone.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Go to the tropics on drugs and tell me you don't see yourself in Green Hill Zone.

Is this the reason why world's made of food is a bad thing?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Go to the tropics on drugs and tell me you don't see yourself in Green Hill Zone.

the fuck? 

[PandoloFox]

Haha xD what kind of answer did you guys expect when you ask what he means with a dream world being more realistic.

Well, do you guys dream? And if the answer is yes, are there dreams you felt were very real? ( as in mimicking the real world ).

[Sparky]

I think what's being said is that Sonic's world feels like a dreamlike version of the real world. 

[Briraka]

Is this the reason why world's made of food is a bad thing?

Perhaps, but we won't know until someone goes to the candy isle on LSD.

Anyways, I'm of the opinion that what we have now is closer to the tone that would be ideal for the Sonic series than from 2001-2006. They just need to work on getting the player invested in the story and start using characters outside of Sonic, Tails, and Eggman for a change.

[Diogenes]

Well, do you guys dream?

Yeah, and I've had dreams far weirder than anything in the Sonic series. Like, where's the line? How do you decide what's too "dreamlike", aside from personal preference?

[PandoloFox]

Yeah, and I've had dreams far weirder than anything in the Sonic series. Like, where's the line? How do you decide what's too "dreamlike", aside from personal preference?

We are debating this from a personal preference stance to begin with. Its hard to convey your own perspective on things when others dont see it that way. And im not even against people that claim that "to them" sonic was always overly cartoony. It all comes down to preference on that one. 

But if im not mistaken we have books now stating that sonic did in fact strive to market their games for older crowds like teenagers ( ofcourse kids were included ). I dont think its a stretch to say that sonic wasnt just cartoony though i wont deny the cartoony side of him. The only reason people like me are even debating about tone to begin with is because sonic fans actively pushed for sonic being a "kids game" in the past. Considering that sonic already catered to kids and shadow the hedgehog was a bi-product of kids wanting sonic to wield guns, this statment was dangerous to sonics core. As we have seen with colors and so on they have made more effort into catering to kids than anything else. ( Though a bit on the ironic side, i have heard that the sonic boom show is catering to adults ).

[Badnik Mechanic]

But if im not mistaken we have books now stating that sonic did in fact strive to market their games for older crowds like teenagers ( ofcourse kids were included ). 

Name the books. 

[PandoloFox]

Name the books. 

Why do i have to name something im not sure about?

[Wraith]

Why do i have to name something im not sure about?

If you're not sure about it don't use it in an argument. 

[Komodin]

I just have one point of contention to address at this juncture:

Worlds made of Food

... Only Colors' Sweet Mountain and Lost World's Sugar Road (Dessert Road, Act 3) actually had giant floating food in them. The point of those levels is to, respectively, show Eggman as trying to appease to the visitors of the Incredible Interstellar Amusement Park long enough to enact his plan, and to show Zomom as the gluttonous type of Zeti.

There's nothing inherently bad or off-putting about these sort of levels--Sonic isn't some Call of Duty-esque photorealistic game series. Levels like this can work for him if used sparingly, which it has.

[PandoloFox]

If you're not sure about it don't use it in an argument. 

Cant say i used it in an argument since i said only that i think it exists if im not mistaken. and i didnt even use it to claim something as fact. But this is also the sonic group, im sure that if the book doesnt exists, one of you guys could easily just shut it down instead of asking me to prove something im not even sure exists.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Why do i have to name something im not sure about?

thats how debating works. you say a source says something, name the source or it didnt happen. 

[PandoloFox]

thats how debating works. you say a source says something, name the source or it didnt happen. 

Fine i will simply drop it then. But if i were to make a guess i think it was called console wars.