*(Sonic the Hedgehog - Were The Tone/Atmosphere/Demographic Changes Necessary?)*

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

As for the thread, I think while Sonic has been now markted to kids.... I think Sonic should be for everyone and I do feel nowadays the current tone is even boring for kids. Sonic Colors in particular was pretty much gear towards kids in Japan because of its orginal script and the jokes we would get, plus the simplefied subtitles. BUT the dialouge was also something teenagers and adults would get to. The english script didnt have the same charm to it.

But yeah, I think it is best to make the series for everyone to enjoy. 

[Vertekins]

I think the word wanted here is "fantasy-ish", not "dreamlike"

I personally love the art direction of Sonic titles when it strikes a good balance between realism and fantasy. Like Sonic CD. And I feel that an art direction like that suits the series in general, both Classic and Modern. Modern tends to go overboard on realism compared to fantasy though whilst the Classic titles tend to strike the best balance.

But my biggest complaint about the tone lately is that it's so badly executed. I've said it before, I have nothing against lightheartedness or a darker tone though I personally prefer a balance of the two the most. Unleashed and the Storybook games nailed it best. I don't mind a dark-toned game or a lighthearted one as long as either are competently executed.

The tones of everything from Colours onward and ShTH and '06 are not, in any way, competently executed when it comes to what they were going for tone-wise because they're both embarassingly awful in their execution, derail the plot for the sake of the expression of tone as well as the characters themselves and are insulting to the intelligence of players and are uncharacteristic of the franchise in general. Neither are ideal for the series.

The same goes for their plots. ShTH and '06 tried and failed to execute complexity due to idiotic writing i.e '06's clusterfuck of a story teeming with plotholes as well as a disregard for canon i.e Blaze's origin, ShTH's confusing story paths. Some of which aren't even canonical and which undermine the concept boasted about in promotional material to make Shadow into what you want him to be ("Hero or villain? You decide!") and character usage that is just as bad as what the games are currently doing.

Colours+ failed in terms of comedy and simplicity because they're howlingly unfunny for the most part, utterly uninteresting and unimmersive and never make good use of the characters that are involved, even derailing them for the sake of the tone and in order to make certain plot points come to fruition and then utterly ignoring plot aspects it sets up (Sonic being turned into little more than a vehicle for shitty "jokes" to the near-complete disregard of his other traits, Tails being morphed into a whiny brat because DRAMA! The fixation on asinine prattle shunting aside actual action. The "humor" is not character-driven for the most part. Which contributes to why it's so bad and out-of-place.

If there's anything this series shouldn't learn from and continue doing, it's ShTH, '06 and the current direction.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Yeah I do have to agree that in Colors onward Sonic felt more like a walking talking jokes depenser then a actual character. Sad. 

[RappedinBlacX]

If I had to describe Sonic's tone right now it would be western Saturday morning cartoon. I also think introduction of Cubot and Orbot to the series dont help either. They're just a tool on top of Sonic to further drive home the cornyness

Eggman and a rebellious but obedient Metal Sonic would be better

Edited December 28, 2015 by RappedinBlacX

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

Personally, I didn't intend my post to be "spiteful". I really don't mind that you have an opinion. The only reason it was so strongly-worded is because I think a lot of points and statements you made just can't be substantiated, and I didn't want to allow them to stand. I mean, the claim that the basically had the same focus and tone from 1991 to 2008 is just ridiculous. I don't know how else to put it. You're essentially stating that Sonic 1 and Shadow the Hedgehog are part of one basic path the series was taking, but that Sonic Colors is some wild deviation. Just...why? How? Sonic Colors certainly doesn't have exactly the same tone as the Genesis games, but to claim it's very clearly less similar to them than Shadow the Hedgehog or Sonic '06 is just mind-boggling to me.

I understand your point about the classic games building on each other in terms of how much plotline they have, but honestly, I still don't think this means that plot or "lore" were a major focus. Plot was there, and it definitely had a certain amount of importance. But to act as though it was really important...eh. Still not convinced. I'd be perfectly willing to just concede that point, though, since it does sort of depend on personal interpretation, if you could actually find some way to substantiate your "1991-2008 = one concrete thing, 2010-2015 = entirely different thing" theorem of Sonic history.

[PandoloFox]

I myself dont think that 06 and shth follows the classic style. Most criticism i have debated when it comes to shadow the hedgehog is the mindset that the inclusion of guns was automaticaly a bad thing or that the weapons were too realistic when most weapons were alien tech and weird weapons like the chao gun. I would argue that the idea is fun and a bit "silly" in nature when you can pick up a stop sign and smack people with it. As for 06 i have only debated against the whole idea that it operates on a total realistic enviroment when we clearly have giant turtles that you can use as platforms and lots of other surreal elements.

That being said i find a lot of criticism against 06 and ShTh to be well made points. 

[Nestor]

 

The tones of everything from Colours onward and ShTH and '06 are not, in any way, competently executed when it comes to what they were going for tone-wise because they're both embarassingly awful in their execution, derail the plot for the sake of the expression of tone as well as the characters themselves and are insulting to the intelligence of players and are uncharacteristic of the franchise in general. Neither are ideal for the series.

It's funny, I actually found the camaraderie between Sonic and Tails in Colours (I can't comment on Generations or Lost World as I'll only be getting to finally play them this Christmas) a lot more convincing than a lot of the pre-Unleashed stuff; they felt much more like a couple of friends bantering their way through an adventure rather than the stiff, unnatural dialogue of some of the previous games. While I agree with you that the frequency of jokes could be toned down somewhat and that some of the characterisation was a little different (though for me personally, Tails gaining a little extra attitude would at least be a logical progression from spending so much time with Sonic), I'd prefer that to the extremely painful dialogue and delivery of something like Sonic Adventure, where Tails's dialogue is essentially little more than an exposition tool when with Sonic.

I'd also possibly argue that Sonic's banter isn't uncharacteristic to the series; for example, in Sonic Adventure, his very first lines to Eggman are dismissive insults and in SA2 he teases Eggman and Shadow despite the entire world being on the line. Even in Sonic CD, Sonic is shown to obviously enjoy messing about and having fun with his enemies, as shown in the end sequence. While obviously a personal opinion, the humour in Colours, while hardly of Shakespearean standard, did seem to be a step up from such brilliant witticisms like "Oh look, a giant talking egg!" that the Adventure series enjoyed. Heck, some of the Eggman PA announcements actually made me laugh out loud on occasion!

 

I also think introduction of Cubot and Orbot to the series dont help either. They're just a tool on top of Sonic to further drive home the cornyness

Eggman and a rebellious but obedient Metal Sonic would be better

The problem with Metal Sonic is that he's been portrayed as too taciturn and emotionless (save in the presence of Sonic) to really be an effective 'straight man' to Eggman. One slight issue with Eggman is that he kind of needs someone else there or he's just monologuing into thin air - as a hammy villain he can get away with this a bit, but if he's doing it for too long at a stretch (for example the beginning of SA2 breaking into Prison Island) it can become a little jarring.

Orbot and Cubot give Eggman something to bounce his dialogue off of - both the straight man, Orbot, reacting to and lampshading Eggman's slightly more ludicrous characteristics and the fool, Cubot, so that all the ludicrous aspects are not coming solely from Eggman and devaluing his competence too far (as well as being a foil for Orbot when they're alone).

Edited December 28, 2015 by Nestor

[Badnik Mechanic]

 

Eggman and a rebellious but obedient Metal Sonic would be better

Honestly this would be one of the worst things you could do.

The prolem with some enemies is that the more you show them the less threatening they end up being unless they always win or are defeated by the hero suffers a significant loss.

Take Star Trek Voyager as an example. The series is set in the Delta Quadrant, home of the Borg. The most powerful enemy of the Federation. The problem is that a single intrepid class ship is able to defeat them constantly. Eventually they became less of a threat.

Same problem happened with Doctor Who, too much Dale exposure made them look weak. So they ended up being cut back on how often they were used. 

So if you keep brining in Metal Sonic to fight, eventually he becomes less of a threat, meaning you have to make a new enemy who could be more of a threat.

Archie comics has fallen victim to this, to the point where they're now joking about it in the comic. You can practically could the pages before metal is destroyed.

This is partially why the Monster of the Week has never gone away. 

[FriendBot]

So if you keep brining in Metal Sonic to fight, eventually he becomes less of a threat, meaning you have to make a new enemy who could be more of a threat.

Archie comics has fallen victim to this, to the point where they're now joking about it in the comic. You can practically could the pages before metal is destroyed.

This is partially why the Monster of the Week has never gone away. 

Well good thing that the reboot doesn't do that anymore, Metal Sonic in reboot only got owned once in the beginning (I guess Tails getting the upper hand on him at the end of Champions counts as a defeat on him, I guess) but whenever Metal's around, he gives Sonic and the others a pretty rough time to say the least. 

[Vertekins]

It's funny, I actually found the camaraderie between Sonic and Tails in Colours (I can't comment on Generations or Lost World as I'll only be getting to finally play them this Christmas) a lot more convincing than a lot of the pre-Unleashed stuff; they felt much more like a couple of friends bantering their way through an adventure rather than the stiff, unnatural dialogue of some of the previous games.

I disagree.

Sonic and Tails in Adventure felt far more natural and genuinely humorous in the way they behaved towards each other and acted in general than the way they behaved and interacted in Colours ever felt.

When I watch cutscenes like the Egg Carrier transformation one in Adventure for example and see Tails stating the obvious and Sonic's reaction to that, him expressing the grandaddy of all deadpan "Thank you captain obvious" looks ever and then blatantly ignoring Tails much to the Fox's chagrin, not only is it character-driven and therefore effective, it's actually funny as fuck as well. It's not in-your-face and obnoxious, it's never overplayed. It just takes the established traits of both characters and runs with them to pretty amazing effect. This one example, this single example eclipses anything Colours put-out regarding comedic interactions between the two because it feels natural and is actually goddamn funny.

Comparitively, Colours' takes on Sonic and Tails....don't feel like Sonic and Tails. The way they talk just doesn't feel like them, Tails being uncharateristically sarcastic and Sonic being an insufferable dudebro and clown who doesn't know when to just shut the fuck up and get on with it. The "humor", at no point, is character-driven and therefore believable. It's just forced, juvenile rubbish that feels shoved-in and neither characteristic of the characters or the series in general. Colours has it's strengths when it comes to Sonic-Tails interaction uch as Sonic leaping in front of Tails when Eggman appears in the Egg Nega Wisp and sending him down to safe terra-firma but such instances are exceptions, not the rule.

One of the strengths of the better pre-Colours era instances of Sonic-Tails interactions is that they knew subtlety and played to the characters traits without flanderizing them. The post-Colours era almost completely lacks this so Sonic and Tails come-off as obnoxious and unnatural.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Well good thing that the reboot doesn't do that anymore, Metal Sonic in reboot only got owned once in the beginning (I guess Tails getting the upper hand on him at the end of Champions counts as a defeat on him, I guess) but whenever Metal's around, he gives Sonic and the others a pretty rough time to say the least. 

 

I've not read archie for a while, but the last time I read it some evil lady echidna actually made some kind of joke about how Metal Sonic got destroyed again.

[FriendBot]

I've not read archie for a while, but the last time I read it some evil lady echidna actually made some kind of joke about how Metal Sonic got destroyed again.

....Welp, looks like you've been out of the loop with Archie.

[azoo]

In regards of good things to come from the recent games' storytelling, I gotta say that Sonic and Tails' more brotherly relationship in Colors was a good step forward. The problem with it though is that with Lost World, it expanded a bit in a direction I didn't want to see it go. 

Now it's more about them snarking off at each other and making dumb quips rather than legit brotherliness. And yes that's a thing brothers do, but to the extent the two do it in recent games you could almost see their bond as dysfunctional. Especially since Tails has now adapted a sort of "I'm with stupid" personality towards Sonic, which is played so straight that Sonic's only comeback is "geez I'm sorry buddy yeah I'm really dumb".

Not a fan of that at all. Sonic and Tails' relationship doesn't feel very genuine anymore, but that's not to say it ever did from Heroes - Unleashed either.

To be honest, out of all things Unleashed did pretty well with the story, Tails was probably the most carelessly handled character. His connection to Sonic was just being some old friend that's around, and most of the brotherly bonding went to Chip. Which was really nice because it was heartwarming and entertaining, but it feels misplaced on a one-shot character rather than a character that I feel doesn't get enough reinforcement that he and Sonic are very close.

But when thinking of a game where they were done justice, I'm going with Verte on this one. Adventure captured their spirit together very well, in fact in a way that no other game in the series really goes into in the same way. Which is a crying shame, because their bond is central to the overarching 'plot' of the series, whatever that is. And with only one game (besides the promo artwork of them around the classic days) holding it together, how is it that believable?

Edited December 28, 2015 by Azoo

[Nestor]

Eh, perhaps I'm just a weirdo or something, but Adventure didn't really do anything for me for Sonic and Tails's relationship, beyond Tails's exposition about it. For me, he was just kind of there behind Sonic, spending most of the time spouting exposition of what the player had to do next at the end of each sequence; perhaps it was just the awful, clunky delivery of the dialogue that killed any sense of realism, while in Colours the voice actors seem to interact more naturally as if they were in a conversation rather than just reading dialogue from a script. The Captain Obvious scene on the Egg Carrier might have been... mildy amusing, but for me at least was ruined by Tails's "I hate it when he doesn't listen" line. Other than that, was there even another joke between them? Or indeed in the game at all? I smiled at some of the Amy/Sonic interplay and some of Eggman's hamminess, but other than that, most of it felt pretty flat.

Conversely, while some of the banter in Colours was hardly going to redefine comedy, some of them at least got a brief smile, and other aspects (like the aforementioned Eggman PA announcements) actually made me laugh.

I do agree with you though, there should be significantly more subtlety and balance in the humour rather than it being the be all and end all of every piece of dialogue; for me personally it kind of worked in Colours as it was more lighthearted than something like SA2, but it shouldn't be a precedent.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Nestor

[Lord-Dreamerz]

So if you keep brining in Metal Sonic to fight, eventually he becomes less of a threat, meaning you have to make a new enemy who could be more of a threat.

I think maybe few ways to help keep a reoccurring villain/rival a real threat is to allow them to win sometimes. And or make the battles with them so epic every time that you feel threaten by them almost always. Also allowing you to play as the character sometimes in important roles would help because you can actually experience them winning outside of the losses when you defeat them as other characters.

Not that I think Metal-Sonic should be Eggman’s only important robot... Far from it! Because I do agree abusing him to much would hurt the cool factor of when you do see the character. I don’t mind Cubot, Orbot, and even would be fine with other reoccurring bots too.

[Nestor]

Also allowing you to play as the character sometimes in important roles would help because you can actually experience them winning outside of the losses when you defeat them as other characters.

I always thought that having him as one of the playable characters in Sonic Adventure, possibly instead of Gamma (as great as his storyline was), would have been good (assuming they gave him a well-written role).

[WakanoBaka]

I just have one point of contention to address at this juncture:

... Only Colors' Sweet Mountain and Lost World's Sugar Road (Dessert Road, Act 3) actually had giant floating food in them. The point of those levels is to, respectively, show Eggman as trying to appease to the visitors of the Incredible Interstellar Amusement Park long enough to enact his plan, and to show Zomom as the gluttonous type of Zeti.

There's nothing inherently bad or off-putting about these sort of levels--Sonic isn't some Call of Duty-esque photorealistic game series. Levels like this can work for him if used sparingly, which it has.

But be that may, THEY FEEL SOOOOOO OUTTA PLACE! Like, what the fuck man? How does....how does Sonic end up here? He fell down a hole? It feels like a Mario level, well, Sugar Road,Sweet Mountain isn't all that bad....Mario is a somewhat PURE abstract game.

[Diogenes]

Especially since Tails has now adapted a sort of "I'm with stupid" personality towards Sonic, which is played so straight that Sonic's only comeback is "geez I'm sorry buddy yeah I'm really dumb".

I really don't understand where some of these interpretations come from. What part of Lost World gives you this impression?

[Nestor]

But be that may, THEY FEEL SOOOOOO OUTTA PLACE! Like, what the fuck man? How does....how does Sonic end up here? He fell down a hole? It feels like a Mario level, well, Sugar Road,Sweet Mountain isn't all that bad....Mario is a somewhat PURE abstract game.

To be fair, Colours's candy world has a logical reasoning behind its existence - Eggman has built a theme park and specifically converted this part of it into a candy themed attraction. Compared with some of Eggman's other dubious design choices (building space stations shaped like his head, his apparent compulsion to build theme parks into his bases) this is actually relatively sane reasoning for him.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Nestor

[WakanoBaka]

To be fair, Colours's candy world has a logical reasoning behind its existence - Eggman has built a theme park and specifically converted this part of it into a candy themed attraction. Compared with some of Eggman's other dubious design choices (building space stations shaped like his head, his apparent compulsion to build theme parks into his bases) this is actually relatively sane reasoning for him.

As I said, Sweet Mountain isn't all that bad, it has some sense to it.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I really don't understand where some of these interpretations come from. What part of Lost World gives you this impression?

I dunno but I feel in the game Tails seems to love to run salt in Sonics wounds and Sonics only response is to say "your right"

i mean Sonic aplogised for doubting Tails which he didn't even do so that doesn't warrent a aplogy 

[PandoloFox]

My complaint with the candy world in sonic lost world is that it feels poorly implemented. At least if you are going to make a candy world for sonic make it look like something that sonic would visit. Have some burning candy factories in the background and a bit of ominous feeling to it. sonic being chased by steaming hot chocolate or something would realy put it into perspective that this is not just any candy place, but a candy place in sonics universe. instead we get floating donuts in the air ( No context to anything besides the whole thing being a word play )

[Sparky]

I really don't understand where some of these interpretations come from. What part of Lost World gives you this impression?

I dunno but I feel in the game Tails seems to love to run salt in Sonics wounds and Sonics only response is to say "your right"

i mean Sonic aplogised for doubting Tails which he didn't even do so that doesn't warrent a aplogy 

I almost thought you were replying to yourself because you both have the exact same avatar. 

Sonic and Tails just weren't written right in Lost World. One of Tails' key traits is humbleness. 

 

[Vertekins]

The problem with Lost World is that it was fixated on dragging Sonic's face through the mud by any means necessary, even if it means undermining his intelligence to do so. Because fuck him that's why. But it also misguidedly attempts to make Tails look like he's in the right (He isn't). Which makes him look like a self-righteous little git who likes being snarky and right about everything.

It attempts to make Sonic look believably flawed (And fails) and Tails out to be someone who thinks he's owed something and a figure of sympathy (He isn't. On both counts).

That's why SLW's narrative and it's portrayals of both characters has fundamental problems.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

 

I almost thought you were replying to yourself because you both have the exact same avatar. 
Sonic and Tails just weren't written right in Lost World. One of Tails' key traits is humbleness. 

 

I am flattered by your mistake  

but yeah I agree with you. tails wasnt humble at all which was sad. He was literally the worst character in that game