*(Sonic the Hedgehog - Were The Tone/Atmosphere/Demographic Changes Necessary?)*

[Diogenes]

I dunno but I feel in the game Tails seems to love to run salt in Sonics wounds and Sonics only response is to say "your right"

i mean Sonic aplogised for doubting Tails which he didn't even do so that doesn't warrent a aplogy 

The only thing I can think of that comes close to rubbing salt in the wound is that one sarcastic "ya think?" at the end of the conch-kick scene. If that's all there is, I really don't think that's grounds to say that Tails treats Sonic like he's stupid.

And while Sonic may not have intended to doubt Tails, bringing Eggman along still made Tails feel like Sonic didn't trust him to be able to handle things. I think that's worth a small apology.

The problem with Lost World is that it was fixated on dragging Sonic's face through the mud by any means necessary, even if it means undermining his intelligence to do so. Because fuck him that's why.

At what point does the game try to undermine his intelligence? Sonic doesn't do anything that's stupid, he's just impulsive and cocky, and that can understandably cause trouble if he ends up being wrong about something.

But it also misguidedly attempts to make Tails look like he's in the right (He isn't). Which makes him look like a self-righteous little git who likes being snarky and right about everything.

Tails isn't entirely justified, and I don't think the game tries to make you believe that he is. He's a kid who gets his feelings hurt and he doesn't handle it in the best way. But that shouldn't make him a completely unlikable asshole.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

 

The only thing I can think of that comes close to rubbing salt in the wound is that one sarcastic "ya think?" at the end of the conch-kick scene. If that's all there is, I really don't think that's grounds to say that Tails treats Sonic like he's stupid.

And while Sonic may not have intended to doubt Tails, bringing Eggman along still made Tails feel like Sonic didn't trust him to be able to handle things. I think that's worth a small apology.

To me, Tails saying that Sonic didnt trust him came out of nowhere with no genuine build up other then place more blame on Sonic. Sonic never said or even implied that he trusted Eggman over Tails. All he said was "we need Eggman to shut down his machine" and it was because... well it IS Eggmans machine to naturally if he were teaming up with Sonic to shut it down, hed be the first choice to do it.

At what point does the game try to undermine his intelligence? Sonic doesn't do anything that's stupid, he's just impulsive and cocky, and that can understandably cause trouble if he ends up being wrong about something.

Yes Sonic is very brash but even being brash and impusive Sonic always seems to do something that doesnt make him look stupid. Like minds think alike here. But in Lost World the game seems to paint Sonic as someone who is not only brash but seems to be losing some brain cells and part of me belives it was done to make Tails look better.  

Tails isn't entirely justified, and I don't think the game tries to make you believe that he is. He's a kid who gets his feelings hurt and he doesn't handle it in the best way. But that shouldn't make him a completely unlikable asshole.

The game DOES try to make us feel sorry for Tails mainly with the scene of him being trusted over Eggman. And Im sorry but I have a hard time feeling something for a character when there is no genuine build up to it other then to move the plot along. And he does feel like a self righous braggart.

With him giving a whole story about how he can program a TV with laundry detergent and toothpicks from him making out of character snarky remarks and also to him trying to inflate his ego to rub more salt in Sonics wounds (ie "Heres something even EGGMAN couldnt do....") 

[shdowhunt60]

 

The only thing I can think of that comes close to rubbing salt in the wound is that one sarcastic "ya think?" at the end of the conch-kick scene. If that's all there is, I really don't think that's grounds to say that Tails treats Sonic like he's stupid.

He literally did an "I told you so" at the end.

And while Sonic may not have intended to doubt Tails, bringing Eggman along still made Tails feel like Sonic didn't trust him to be able to handle things. I think that's worth a small apology.

He reluctantly let Eggman follow behind him after both he and Tails both repeatedly insult him, and express their collective reluctance at tagging along. That's not really a compelling argument for Sonic betraying Tails in any form or fashion.

 

At what point does the game try to undermine his intelligence? Sonic doesn't do anything that's stupid, he's just impulsive and cocky, and that can understandably cause trouble if he ends up being wrong about something.

Aside from the big lesson that Sonic learned when he punted Tails into the capsule being "I wasn't fast enough to save my buddy"? You know, the big lesson for being impulsive and cocky, being to be more impulsive and cocky? 

Tails isn't entirely justified, and I don't think the game tries to make you believe that he is. He's a kid who gets his feelings hurt and he doesn't handle it in the best way. But that shouldn't make him a completely unlikable asshole.

And again, the story fails miserably because at no point does it JUSTIFY Tails feeling the way he fails. He hasn't earned the right to be angry. He's just angry, and the story wants us to believe that Sonic is wrong by admonishing him in the end, and having him apologize to Tails.

This is literally House of Cards in reverse, but even worse. You have one character acting completely out of character for the sake of conflict, and what makes it worse is that Lost World ultimately has no idea what moral it wants to teach.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

This is literally House of Cards in reverse, but even worse. You have one character acting completely out of character for the sake of conflict, and what makes it worse is that Lost World ultimately has no idea what moral it wants to teach.

Thats the thing with these stories.... the characters are just there as plot devices instead of actual characters. The dynamic doesnt feel like Sonic and Tails anymore and it reads more like two dudes trying to stop a shitload of bad guys. Its all plot driven and not character driven. The characters act because the plot says they should. Nothing was belivable and its sad. 

[Diogenes]

 

To me, Tails saying that Sonic didnt trust him came out of nowhere with no genuine build up other then place more blame on Sonic. Sonic never said or even implied that he trusted Eggman over Tails. All he said was "we need Eggman to shut down his machine" and it was because... well it IS Eggmans machine to naturally if he were teaming up with Sonic to shut it down, hed be the first choice to do it.

I agree that they could've done a better job of building up to it. The game's writing does have a tendency to rush from point to point like that. And I'm not saying Sonic was entirely in the wrong for the choice he made, especially considering not being careful is what got them into trouble with the Zeti in the first place.

Yes Sonic is very brash but even being brash and impusive Sonic always seems to do something that doesnt make him look stupid. Like minds think alike here. But in Lost World the game seems to paint Sonic as someone who is not only brash but seems to be losing some brain cells and part of me belives it was done to make Tails look better.  

Again, what does he do that's supposed to be stupid? He smashes something Eggman's using to cause trouble. That's what he always does, and like he says, smashing Eggman's stuff is usually the right answer. He falls for a trapped animal capsule. Well, freeing animals from those capsules is what he's been doing all game, why wouldn't he pop open another? The only arguably stupid thing he does is trust Eggman, since they didn't actually need him and he does betray them in the end, but everyone's in a rush to defend that one.

With him giving a whole story about how he can program a TV with laundry detergent and toothpicks from him making out of character snarky remarks and also to him trying to inflate his ego to rub more salt in Sonics wounds (ie "Heres something even EGGMAN couldnt do....") 

I dunno, I just feel like, almost 15 years after he had a story all about being more confident in his own abilities and doing things his own way, he's allowed to have a little pride and excitement in the things he's able to do. I just can't see how people interpret it as obnoxious bragging.

He literally did an "I told you so" at the end.

Alright, that's true. But I still don't see how this is rubbing salt in the wound. Like, there's not the slightest bit of animosity between the characters at that point. They've worked out their issues, they've saved the world, they're just palling around like normal.

He reluctantly let Eggman follow behind him after both he and Tails both repeatedly insult him, and express their collective reluctance at tagging along. That's not really a compelling argument for Sonic betraying Tails in any form or fashion.

Feelings aren't always rational. And regardless of what insults were thrown around, Sonic still decides to let Eggman come along, and says that they "need" him to stop the machine. That's about as close as he can get to saying that he doesn't believe Tails can do it on his own, without coming out and saying those exact words.

Aside from the big lesson that Sonic learned when he punted Tails into the capsule being "I wasn't fast enough to save my buddy"? You know, the big lesson for being impulsive and cocky, being to be more impulsive and cocky? 

Except that wasn't the lesson he was learning at all, he was just lamenting his inability to save Tails in that particular situation? I don't understand how you can come up with a reading so twisted short of intentional malice towards the game. The lesson he's actually learning throughout the game is to trust in Tails more. He didn't stop to listen to Tails about the conch, he didn't trust Tails to be able to stop Eggman's machine, he didn't stop to listen to Tails about the trapped capsule. Then Tails bails himself out of trouble and fools the Zeti, and is able to reverse Eggman's machine, and Sonic says "hey I won't doubt you again" or something like that.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Again, what does he do that's supposed to be stupid? He smashes something Eggman's using to cause trouble. That's what he always does, and like he says, smashing Eggman's stuff is usually the right answer. He falls for a trapped animal capsule. Well, freeing animals from those capsules is what he's been doing all game, why wouldn't he pop open another? The only arguably stupid thing he does is trust Eggman, since they didn't actually need him and he does betray them in the end, but everyone's in a rush to defend that one.

I dunno, I just feel like, almost 15 years after he had a story all about being more confident in his own abilities and doing things his own way, he's allowed to have a little pride and excitement in the things he's able to do. I just can't see how people interpret it as obnoxious bragging.

 

Yeah but in earlier games Sonic also thought things through before smashing peoples things. Now thats all his character is centered around, smashing things. Colors started that trend actually.

Theres nothing wrong with Tails having pride in his ablities. I mean he had confidence in Sonic Adventure 2 and other games hes helped out in. The the difference in that in the earlier games.... he was very humble about it and still had his charm. In Lost World, he was more in your face about it. When Sonic asked him "are we good to go", Tails replies "I CAN BUILD A SUPER COMPUTER OUT OF LAUNDRY DETERGENT AND PAPER CLIPS!11 THAT DO YOU THINK???". 

And also in the earlier games Tails had respect for Eggmans mechanical genius and other characters' as well in fact he did mention in Riders that Wave's machinical expertise surpasses his. He also has said the same about Eggmans in the past. Now he inflates his ego by bashing Eggmans robots and saying his stuff was built by a 2 year old just for the sake of drama and tries to make himself better in everyway possible just to get back at Sonic.

[Diogenes]

Yeah but in earlier games Sonic also thought things through before smashing peoples things. Now thats all his character is centered around, smashing things. Colors started that trend actually.

When has Sonic ever had to think about smashing Eggman's shit before, though? I mean, that's always been the point of the series; smash his robots to free the animals, pop open capsules to free more animals, smash up Eggman's boss mechs to stop his plans, etc etc.

Theres nothing wrong with Tails having pride in his ablities. I mean he had confidence in Sonic Adventure 2 and other games hes helped out in. The the difference in that in the earlier games.... he was very humble about it and still had his charm. In Lost World, he was more in your face about it. When Sonic asked him "are we good to go", Tails replies "I CAN BUILD A SUPER COMPUTER OUT OF LAUNDRY DETERGENT AND PAPER CLIPS!11 THAT DO YOU THINK???". 

I don't think that's really accurate to the tone of the conversation. They're just being friends and joking around a little. Sure, Tails is more actively proud of his abilities there than he's been in previous games, but I still can't see anything obnoxious about it.

And also in the earlier games Tails had respect for Eggmans mechanical genius and other characters' as well in fact he did mention in Riders that Wave's machinical expertise surpasses his. He also has said the same about Eggmans in the past. Now he inflates his ego by bashing Eggmans robots and saying his stuff was built by a 2 year old just for the sake of drama and tries to make himself better in everyway possible just to get back at Sonic.

Well yeah, at that point he's hurt and throwing a bit of a fit about it. That part isn't meant to be totally sympathetic, and it's also not meant to be his "normal" personality. He probably won't be bashing Eggman like that in future games, because he's probably not going to be angry like that in future games.

[shdowhunt60]

 

I agree that they could've done a better job of building up to it. The game's writing does have a tendency to rush from point to point like that. And I'm not saying Sonic was entirely in the wrong for the choice he made, especially considering not being careful is what got them into trouble with the Zeti in the first place.

But that does hurt the whole idea that Sonic, somehow, betrayed Tails by not trusting him. If there was some point where, I don't know, DOES show that he actually trust Eggman more than Tails, then I'd be willing to buy it. Instead, it just makes Tails look like a whiny little brat.

Again, what does he do that's supposed to be stupid? He smashes something Eggman's using to cause trouble. That's what he always does, and like he says, smashing Eggman's stuff is usually the right answer. He falls for a trapped animal capsule. Well, freeing animals from those capsules is what he's been doing all game, why wouldn't he pop open another? The only arguably stupid thing he does is trust Eggman, since they didn't actually need him and he does betray them in the end, but everyone's in a rush to defend that one.

But again, since when did Sonic ACTUALLY trust Eggman. He makes an off-hand remark about needing him to shut off his machine, but that's not really a compelling commitment of trust here. And I would argue that recklessness and impulsiveness IS stupidity. 

I dunno, I just feel like, almost 15 years after he had a story all about being more confident in his own abilities and doing things his own way, he's allowed to have a little pride and excitement in the things he's able to do. I just can't see how people interpret it as obnoxious bragging.

 

Because waxing poetics about how amazing he is, is not something that Tails does. That's not his character. If you want someone to be egocentric, there's other characters for it. There's being proud, and then there's swaggering. Tails flies well past that line

 

And I've argued this before, this would also imply that Pontac and Graff were aware of his prior character arc, which Pontac has stated that they weren't aware of this. Why else do you think they completely bull-shitted a list of feats? Building a TV a paper clips. Having a hovercar that can run off of pickle juice. A fucking quiche that'll knock your socks off.

 

These aren't genuine accomplishments that Tails has had in prior history. This is a list of bullshit that Pontac and Graff came up with to make Tails sound super duper amazing awesome. If Tails said something simple and innocent like "Hey, if I can make a fake emerald, I can definitely fix this biplane" then I'd be fine. That's confidence. But the fact that he lists off a random bunch of events, along with Sonic's own exasperation, makes it feel incredibly passive aggressive for Sonic and Tails.

Alright, that's true. But I still don't see how this is rubbing salt in the wound. Like, there's not the slightest bit of animosity between the characters at that point. They've worked out their issues, they've saved the world, they're just palling around like normal.

But again, it just comes off as snide and passive aggressive. Especially for a character like Tails. I mean, we do remember Tails right? Shy, cute, humble fox cub? Has two Tails?

Feelings aren't always rational. And regardless of what insults were thrown around, Sonic still decides to let Eggman come along, and says that they "need" him to stop the machine. That's about as close as he can get to saying that he doesn't believe Tails can do it on his own, without coming out and saying those exact words.

I realize that. But the point isn't to get us to agree with Tails, it's to get us to sympathize with him.

I mean, I was just playing Undertale, and the main antagonist is a sociopathic murderer who kills people, and does generally horrible things, because he got bored. By all means, I can't emphasize how much I disagree with him. But I sympathize with him, because he's ultimately a victim in the grand scheme of things as well. He does horrible things, because horrible things have been done to him.

Except that wasn't the lesson he was learning at all, he was just lamenting his inability to save Tails in that particular situation? I don't understand how you can come up with a reading so twisted short of intentional malice towards the game. 

Because he outright states what it is he learned from that.

"I was too slow to save my buddy".

That's his grand revelation at that moment. After kicking his friend into the machine, because he was too reckless and impulsive, that's what he learned. This isn't the only moral that Lost World fails on, because it's horribly indecisive what it ultimately wants to teach. Let's try a few others.

Eggman is a complex guy who's more than just a villian... Even though none of that matters, and that's all he does in the end.

Don't doubt your friends... Even though you've never doubted them in the first place.

Be reckless and impulsive... Even when your recklessness hurts your friends.

Go seeking conflict... Even though the people you're seeking conflict with aren't ultimately all that interested in conflicted with you.

Man, Maekawa must be having a field day.

[Diogenes]

But that does hurt the whole idea that Sonic, somehow, betrayed Tails by not trusting him. If there was some point where, I don't know, DOES show that he actually trust Eggman more than Tails, then I'd be willing to buy it. Instead, it just makes Tails look like a whiny little brat.

They do. That point is, bringing along their enemy to do a job that is within Tails' range of skill. There's a reason why they reinforced near the start of the game that Tails is a genius when it comes to machines and computers and that Sonic is well aware of it.

And I would argue that recklessness and impulsiveness IS stupidity. 

Then you'll be arguing that Sonic has always been stupid, since those are pretty integral parts of his personality. He's a high-energy rebel, a guy who always follows his heart.

Because waxing poetics about how amazing he is, is not something that Tails does. That's not his character. If you want someone to be egocentric, there's other characters for it. There's being proud, and then there's swaggering. Tails flies well past that line

Sorry, I just don't agree. In my eyes Tails is doing nothing more than some lightweight, friendly bragging.

And I've argued this before, this would also imply that Pontac and Graff were aware of his prior character arc, which Pontac has stated that they weren't aware of this. Why else do you think they completely bull-shitted a list of feats? Building a TV a paper clips. Having a hovercar that can run off of pickle juice. A fucking quiche that'll knock your socks off.

What does it matter if they knew it or not? Something doesn't stop being in-character just because the writers lucked into it, if that's even how it happened.

And they bullshitted some accomplishments because it's a joke. The absurdity of building a TV out of paperclips is supposed to be funny.

These aren't genuine accomplishments that Tails has had in prior history. This is a list of bullshit that Pontac and Graff came up with to make Tails sound super duper amazing awesome. If Tails said something simple and innocent like "Hey, if I can make a fake emerald, I can definitely fix this biplane" then I'd be fine. 

"Simple and innocent" like replicating a legendary magic rock, a source of infinite power, right. Seriously the fake emerald was some serious asspull bullshit, if people were half as critical of SA2 as they are of more recent games that'd be called out as contrived, plothole-y, and Mary Sueish. I can't understand how people have let that slide, but get so hung up on some cartoonishly silly kid genius stuff.

I realize that. But the point isn't to get us to agree with Tails, it's to get us to sympathize with him.

And I still don't understand why so many people don't. He's been sidelined by his best friend, in favor of their worst enemy. Even if it could've benefited from a better buildup, even if Tails isn't entirely justified in the way he acts, I don't think it should be hard to understand how that hurt him.

Because he outright states what it is he learned from that.

And again, that's a statement of regret, not the end of his arc. And being fast isn't the same as being impulsive or cocky anyway.

Eggman is a complex guy who's more than just a villian... Even though none of that matters, and that's all he does in the end.

He lied, dude. Not everything a character says is meant to be taken as absolute, objective fact. Especially not from characters who are and always will be the bad guy.

Don't doubt your friends... Even though you've never doubted them in the first place.

At this point you're just outright refusing to accept the story of the game. When Sonic says "I'll never doubt you again", what do you think he's talking about?

Be reckless and impulsive... Even when your recklessness hurts your friends.

Literally the opposite of what the game says.

Go seeking conflict... Even though the people you're seeking conflict with aren't ultimately all that interested in conflicted with you.

...I don't have the slightest clue what you're referring to here.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

 

At this point you're just outright refusing to accept the story of the game. When Sonic says "I'll never doubt you again", what do you think he's talking about?

 

But Sonic never doubted him. Thats what shadowhunt was saying. 

[Diogenes]

But Sonic never doubted him. Thats what shadowhunt was saying. 

Then what is Sonic talking about? Why is he saying he won't doubt Tails "again" if he's never doubted him before?

[PandoloFox]

Then what is Sonic talking about? Why is he saying he won't doubt Tails "again" if he's never doubted him before?

That is exactly what people are wondering and have a problem with.

[shdowhunt60]

Then what is Sonic talking about? Why is he saying he won't doubt Tails "again" if he's never doubted him before?

I don't know, you tell me, because I sure as hell don't see anywhere he's explicitly doubted Tails for squat.

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Then what is Sonic talking about? Why is he saying he won't doubt Tails "again" if he's never doubted him before?

Thats the point. Because there is no build up or any reasoning behind it, Sonic says it out of nowhere. The game is trying to make us belive that Sonic doubted his ablities by making him actually say it, however the actions before the game never implied that Sonic doubted Tails at all. This is what me and shadowhunt have been trying to say!!! Theres a major disconnect between what Sonic was implying and how it was executed to what he says at the end.

Even WE the players are asking that same question. Why? The answer is obvious, to make it seem like everything in the game is Sonics fault but to also add more ego points to Tails pride as well. Thats my beef with the game. He apologises but he.... never had to and the game never explored that or even built it up. It just did it. 

Edited December 28, 2015 by Mikyeong

[Diogenes]

I mean...how much more does he have to say? If Sonic had said, "Yes Tails I doubted you" would people still deny that he had doubted him?

Sonic isn't talking nonsense. People are refusing to accept what the story is presenting as fact. You may have felt that Sonic wasn't doubting Tails, but Sonic all but admits that he did at the end.

[PandoloFox]

The only thing Sonic does is to take precautions by letting eggman tagging along to deactivate the machine. Eggman built it so logicaly he should be able to fix the problem. Its not Sonic doubting tails, its sonic thinking about whats the best course of action to handle the situation as fast as possible ( they are in a hurry after all ). Tails is displaying a serious lack of empathy by making this a thing about trust when sonic just wants to save lives. Its not like Sonic is actualy saying that tails wont be able to do it, he is just bringing in a secondary option.

[Chris Knopps]

...Should have been a boss fight against Robot Slave Tails.

...Should have been a boss fight against Mind Controlled Tails.

Instead they built up to the possibility... Then whoop, nope, opportunity wasted.

And why? Likely because kids are too sensitive and beating up a friend would hurt kids in some way.

You have any idea how much it scarred me beating up Sonic and Tails in SA2? But hell if I didn't love it at the same time.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Chris Knopps

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I mean...how much more does he have to say? If Sonic had said, "Yes Tails I doubted you" would people still deny that he had doubted him?

Sonic isn't talking nonsense. People are refusing to accept what the story is presenting as fact. You may have felt that Sonic wasn't doubting Tails, but Sonic all but admits that he did at the end.

Welp, I will admit defeat and hop off the Lost World express. Its been nice having a debate with you and good luck man.

 

[PandoloFox]

I mean...how much more does he have to say? If Sonic had said, "Yes Tails I doubted you" would people still deny that he had doubted him?

Sonic isn't talking nonsense. People are refusing to accept what the story is presenting as fact. You may have felt that Sonic wasn't doubting Tails, but Sonic all but admits that he did at the end.

How to explain this. Actions speaks louder than words, what sonic is saying and what he is actualy doing doesnt add up. I ( the viewer ) dont buy that  sonic is actualy doubting tails despite the writers attempt to make me believe so. 

[shdowhunt60]

 They do. That point is, bringing along their enemy to do a job that is within Tails' range of skill. There's a reason why they reinforced near the start of the game that Tails is a genius when it comes to machines and computers and that Sonic is well aware of it.

... Which again, isn't so much a "bringing along" as so much as a "reluctantly letting them follow". Again, not a compelling statement of trust.

 Then you'll be arguing that Sonic has always been stupid, since those are pretty integral parts of his personality. He's a high-energy rebel, a guy who always follows his heart.

There's a difference between following gut instinct, and rushing into things head first. Sonic has always done the former, and not as much the latter.Sorry, I just don't agree.

 

 

In my eyes Tails is doing nothing more than some lightweight, friendly bragging

 ... Sure whatever. That's not how I see it. And we're not going anywhere with this.

What does it matter if they knew it or not? Something doesn't stop being in-character just because the writers lucked into it, if that's even how it happened.

I... What is this?

And they bullshitted some accomplishments because it's a joke. The absurdity of building a TV out of paperclips is supposed to be funny.

Too bad it's not funny in the slightest.

"Simple and innocent" like replicating a legendary magic rock, a source of infinite power, right. Seriously the fake emerald was some serious asspull bullshit, if people were half as critical of SA2 as they are of more recent games that'd be called out as contrived, plothole-y, and Mary Sueish. I can't understand how people have let that slide, but get so hung up on some cartoonishly silly kid genius stuff.

Because I'm more willing to forgive plot contrivances than I am blatantly out of character behavior, a lack of narrative focus, and outright stupidity. I have my share of criticisms  for SA2 as well, but I'm willing to overlook them because SA2 as a whole works. Lost World does not.

And I still don't understand why so many people don't. He's been sidelined by his best friend, in favor of their worst enemy. Even if it could've benefited from a better buildup, even if Tails isn't entirely justified in the way he acts, I don't think it should be hard to understand how that hurt him.

Again, WHEN DID ANY OF THIS HAPPEN?!

And again, that's a statement of regret, not the end of his arc.

You're right, it's not the end of the arc. It just suddenly stops and they do absolutely nothing else with it.

And being fast isn't the same as being impulsive or cocky anyway.

I'm going to leave this one alone

He lied, dude. Not everything a character says is meant to be taken as absolute, objective fact. Especially not from characters who are and always will be the bad guy.

Then why all the buildup to portray Eggman as this super complex character then? They had this nice little character arc going for him, before they threw it out the window to make him the obligatory end boss. It's a damn shame too, because it was the most interesting thing they've done with the character in a decade.

At this point you're just outright refusing to accept the story of the game. When Sonic says "I'll never doubt you again", what do you think he's talking about?

I'm not. Because it never happened. At no point does Sonic ever doubt Tails. This is the story basically lying by saying a thing happened, when it didn't. I don't like being lied too.

Literally the opposite of what the game says.

No it doesn't. At no point is Sonic's recklessness actually addressed beyond the scene where Sonic decides that the solution to him being reckless and impulsive is to be reckless and impulsive..

...I don't have the slightest clue what you're referring to here.

Half of the deadly six aren't even interested in engaging Sonic. They're too busy being self-absorbed to even care. Regardless, Sonic goes and picks a fight with them.

Responses in bold, because the reply system is a glitchy mess.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

They do. That point is, bringing along their enemy to do a job that is within Tails' range of skill. There's a reason why they reinforced near the start of the game that Tails is a genius when it comes to machines and computers and that Sonic is well aware of it.

...Except it was very clear that they were extremely pressed for time. As in their friends lives were literally draining away every second they wasted, and Tails hadn't seen Eggman's machine before. It wasn't a case of doubting his skills, it was a case of wasting more time that could end up killing your friends to figure out how the machine works, or work with the enemy of my enemy who already knows everything about the machine. It's like if you had two rival game developers helping you fix a game glitch, but one of the developers already worked on the game previously, and therefore already knows the code and such, and would be able to quickly fix the glitch, while the other developer would need time to learn how it's been coded.

Sorry, I just don't agree. In my eyes Tails is doing nothing more than some lightweight, friendly bragging.

 

Except bragging has never been a part of Tails' character, and it quickly gets annoying to the player as well because the inventions he creates don't make any logical sense. I mean obviously, you need to have suspension of disbelief that a 8 year old fox can build this kind of stuff, but when you start claiming he's so smart that he can do it out of impossible materials, you push it too far, and break that suspension. Eggman was always the character who would brag about his ego and how much of a genius he was, while Tails was the humble inventor who cared more about actually creating, rather than getting recognition for it. That's meant to be one of the main contrasts between the two.

What does it matter if they knew it or not? Something doesn't stop being in-character just because the writers lucked into it, if that's even how it happened.

And they bullshitted some accomplishments because it's a joke. The absurdity of building a TV out of paperclips is supposed to be funny.

Because the joke is played completely straight and has no punchline. It's like someone who walks up to you and just says something completely random, and nonsensical. It doesn't make you laugh, but instead makes you wonder "what the fuck is this guy talking about". Maybe if we saw Sonic call Tails out and say he's exaggerating, or even a facepalm, or sigh or something, that would be at least finishing off the joke because the punchline would be Tails over-hyping himself to Sonic's annoyance. 

"Simple and innocent" like replicating a legendary magic rock, a source of infinite power, right. Seriously the fake emerald was some serious asspull bullshit, if people were half as critical of SA2 as they are of more recent games that'd be called out as contrived, plothole-y, and Mary Sueish. I can't understand how people have let that slide, but get so hung up on some cartoonishly silly kid genius stuff.

I'm not going to argue that it was a asspull move, but it's at least a little more believable because we know Tails actually had an emerald to work with, because he had one for the entirety of Adventure, so being a inventor, it's not hard to believe he would research the properties of it, and be able to at least replicate something like it. On top of that, it isn't a source of infinite energy. It's got the same wavelength so it can pass as a real one, but Tails made it very clear it wasn't anywhere near as powerful as a real emerald, and considering what it did to Sonic when he had to use it, and the fact it would have caused the eclipse cannon to blow up, my guess is it allows access to some of the abilities due to the wavelength, but actively drains the users' energy to power itself in order to allow it to work, so when Sonic used Chao Control, that's why he feel so weird and needed Knux's help to stand up.

And I still don't understand why so many people don't. He's been sidelined by his best friend, in favor of their worst enemy. Even if it could've benefited from a better buildup, even if Tails isn't entirely justified in the way he acts, I don't think it should be hard to understand how that hurt him.

 Tails hasn't really been sidelined by his best friend, and Sonic actively shows dislike at working with Eggman, but considering the race against time, and the fact that Eggman already knows the machine inside and out, it's honestly just common sense when he's offering to help you. Sonic doesn't show doubt against Tails' abilities, but he knows realistically that Tails would need to study out the machine, and that requires more borrowed time than they already have. 

He lied, dude. Not everything a character says is meant to be taken as absolute, objective fact. Especially not from characters who are and always will be the bad guy.

Yes, Eggman did lie, but as Uncharted 2 put it. Desperate Times. The entire world was in the process of being drained of it's life source in order to feed six already powerful enemies to make them even more powerful. Eggman helped them in the past without backstabbing them as well. They didn't like working together obviously, but in this situation, you put your differences aside to ensure the survival of as many people as possible. 

At this point you're just outright refusing to accept the story of the game. When Sonic says "I'll never doubt you again", what do you think he's talking about?

 

I mean...how much more does he have to say? If Sonic had said, "Yes Tails I doubted you" would people still deny that he had doubted him?

Sonic isn't talking nonsense. People are refusing to accept what the story is presenting as fact. You may have felt that Sonic wasn't doubting Tails, but Sonic all but admits that he did at the end.

No, that's actually bad story writing because they didn't make it clear that Sonic did doubt Tails' abilities. There was never a scene where he did do it, and in fact, there's a cutscene where he explains they both need Eggman to shut it down due to him having knowledge about the machine. Sonic never once tells Tails that he can't do it, or he doesn't have the skills. He simply thought getting the actual inventor of the machine would allow them to shut it down quicker, because in the story of the game, every second counted. So it isn't people refusing to accept the story, it's the writers not placing in any kind of scene to show that. In that context, it instead makes Tails look like a egotistical brat who won't stop crying about himself and his genius, instead of worrying about the millions of people who are currently being drained of their life to feed six angry zeti. 

 

Edited December 28, 2015 by Ryannumber1gamer

[Diogenes]

The only thing Sonic does is to take precautions by letting eggman tagging along to deactivate the machine. Eggman built it so logicaly he should be able to fix the problem. Its not Sonic doubting tails, its sonic thinking about whats the best course of action to handle the situation as fast as possible ( they are in a hurry after all ). Tails is displaying a serious lack of empathy by making this a thing about trust when sonic just wants to save lives. Its not like Sonic is actualy saying that tails wont be able to do it, he is just bringing in a secondary option.

And that's a fair reading from Sonic's point of view. It's why Sonic doesn't deserve to be demonized for trusting Eggman. He genuinely didn't mean any harm to Tails, and genuinely tried to do the right thing.

But let me make up an analogy.

Say you know two guys, Dave and Phil. They both work as car mechanics for a living, and they're both pretty great at it. Dave, he's been your friend practically forever. You grew up together, he was the best man at your wedding, you've both slurred "I love you man!!!" at each other while drunk more times than you could count. You'd take a bullet for him, and he for you. Phil, on the other hand, is an asshole, and everyone knows it. He stole your and Dave's lunch money all throughout grade school. He egged your house and TP'd Dave's last Halloween. He grabbed your wife's ass at the Christmas party. Anytime someone brings up Phil, the first words out of your mouth are "Fuck Phil, he's an asshole" and Dave follows with an "amen!".

And then you're driving to work one day and the "check engine" light comes on, and that clanking noise you've been ignoring gets worse, and is that smoke coming from under the hood? So you fucked up and drove it too hard and now you need to get it repaired. And so you're talking to Dave, and he's like "hey man don't worry, I've got your back, hell I won't even charge you for it".

And then you say to him "well I want to be sure it gets fixed, so I'm gonna call Phil and have him take a look at it".

...so does Dave not have grounds to say "what the fuck man, why are you bothering with that asshole? I told you I'd take care of it!"

I guess I'm stepping out of the discussion at this point. If this doesn't change anyone's minds (and at this point I doubt it), I can't imagine anything I could say will.

[Briraka]

I think that while Sonic didn't actively doubt Tails, his choices could've been interpreted as otherwise. Sonic enlisted Eggman's assistance in shutting down his machine because it's Eggman's, therefore he has more knowledge about it. Tails however, views this as Sonic letting Eggman, y'know, the bad guy, take charge as the tech guy. So being the child he is, gets all fussy and throws fits about it.

Thing is though, throughout the story, Tails never has any moment of reflection and never realizes what a tool he's been. Not to mention the problems with the way the plot progresses and how almost every scene changes tone on a dime really screw over what could've been a really good character arc for Tails.

[PandoloFox]

I think that while Sonic didn't actively doubt Tails, his choices could've been interpreted as otherwise. Sonic enlisted Eggman's assistance in shutting down his machine because it's Eggman's, therefore he has more knowledge about it. Tails however, views this as Sonic letting Eggman, y'know, the bad guy, take charge as the tech guy. So being the child he is, gets all fussy and throws fits about it.

Thing is though, throughout the story, Tails never has any moment of reflection and never realizes what a tool he's been. Not to mention the problems with the way the plot progresses and how almost every scene changes tone on a dime really screw over what could've been a really good character arc for Tails.

Exactly, had they gone that route it would have been a nice character arc for tails. Learning to think about whats best for others as a whole and understand why certain actions might be taken.

[Chris Knopps]

I think that while Sonic didn't actively doubt Tails, his choices could've been interpreted as otherwise. Sonic enlisted Eggman's assistance in shutting down his machine because it's Eggman's, therefore he has more knowledge about it. Tails however, views this as Sonic letting Eggman, y'know, the bad guy, take charge as the tech guy. So being the child he is, gets all fussy and throws fits about it.

Thing is though, throughout the story, Tails never has any moment of reflection and never realizes what a tool he's been. Not to mention the problems with the way the plot progresses and how almost every scene changes tone on a dime really screw over what could've been a really good character arc for Tails.

Why don't we all just agree everyone was out of character and going through the male equivalent of menopause in Lost World...?