*(Sonic the Hedgehog - Were The Tone/Atmosphere/Demographic Changes Necessary?)*

[RappedinBlacX]

But games can have just as much tension in just one entry than a comic can in multiple issues, thanks to it's interactive nature. Sonic has proven capable of just that in SA1, SA2, and Unleashed, primary examples being Boss fights that carry even more risk/reward since it's the player actually taking action in the work rather than just watching the characters do it in a comic, so I don't see how this difference in storytelling favors that of the comics.

And really, stories in games are generally cutscenes that flow and connect to each other no different from a comic, the only difference being that it's a lot more interactive as the audience controls the character to get from one place to another in transition to those scenes. And while there are more elements at play in a game than there are in a comic, that's doesn't exactly make the storytelling that difficult to keep from being disjointed. That last part being the problem people have with games like LW.

Was the priority to tell a story on the level of those game? A few post up, we have a few users that just cant wait for Flynn to in a sense, show up Sonic Team up, but it should be expected because his main and only priority is writing/Narrative. Starting with Colors Sonic Team has adopted a minimalist approach. In SA1 - Unleashed we had cutscence before and after each level, while in LW we can blow through many levels without any strory advancement all resulting in just abruptness of everything. Creating a quality game definitely took the front seat here. 

It's like I said, Lost World is all of the characters on some sort of menopause. End of story, because that is the story.

And Ryannumber1gamer, there is no canon anymore. Generations created an eternal loop of the canon we had then we were thrown into whatever the bleep Lost World was after that which was like the aftermath of Generations, the world completely clucked up.

Man, I dont think that Sonic Generations is suppose to be considered canon. Its anniversary/Crossover game with a story that just sets why its happening. Think about the Marvel vs CAPCOM series; They have a story but the story isnt actually canon to any of the respective series. Im sure ST Intends LW to happen after Colors.  

 

[Bowbowis]

Was the priority to tell a story on the level of those game? A few post up, we have a few users that just cant wait for Flynn to in a sense, show up Sonic Team up, but it should be expected because his main and only priority is writing/Narrative. Starting with Colors Sonic Team has adopted a minimalist approach. In SA1 - Unleashed we had cutscence before and after each level, while in LW we can blow through many levels without any strory advancement all resulting in just abruptness of everything. Creating a quality game definitely took the front seat here. 

This line of thought always baffles me because it seems to assume that the writing staff, animators, programmers, level designers, etc. are one and the same, which, while not unheard of, especially with older titles and indie/fan games, is not the case with modern Sonic. Pontac and Graff's one and only role in the creation of the games is writing, no matter what the dev team as a whole decides to focus on those two will be allowed to give their undivided attention to writing the story. If they are either unwilling or unable to turn out a decent story, despite never be called upon to focus on anything else, then there is nobody to blame for it but them and the people who hired them.

[RappedinBlacX]

This line of thought always baffles me because it seems to assume that the writing staff, animators, programmers, level designers, etc. are one and the same, which, while not unheard of, especially with older titles and indie/fan games, is not the case with modern Sonic. Pontac and Graff's one and only role in the creation of the games is writing, no matter what the dev team as a whole decides to focus on those two will be allowed to give their undivided attention to writing the story. If they are either unwilling or unable to turn out a decent story, despite never be called upon to focus on anything else, then there is nobody to blame for it but them and the people who hired them.

Just because they're are the main writers doesn't mean they can go ham and do whatever they want. They're still writing under conditions. If SEGA request a minimalist, lighthearted story then thats the box they're stuck writing in.

Edited December 29, 2015 by RappedinBlacX

[Wraith]

This line of thought always baffles me because it seems to assume that the writing staff, animators, programmers, level designers, etc. are one and the same, which, while not unheard of, especially with older titles and indie/fan games, is not the case with modern Sonic. Pontac and Graff's one and only role in the creation of the games is writing, no matter what the dev team as a whole decides to focus on those two will be allowed to give their undivided attention to writing the story. If they are either unwilling or unable to turn out a decent story, despite never be called upon to focus on anything else, then there is nobody to blame for it but them and the people who hired them.

It should be noted that the types of story that Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 had came from the writers and the game designers working together to make sure each level had a place in the world and the heroes have a reason to go there. Everyone with a significant role on the game  has to give a shit about the story you're trying to tell for it to work. It's not out there for Sonic Team as a whole to be held responsible.

[Idon'tcare]

Glares at Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 with hatred. "Yes, yes they were."

[Chris Knopps]

Glares at Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 with hatred. "Yes, yes they were."

I personally love most of Shadow the Hedgehog and 06, but that's just me, especially compared to BOOM.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Was the priority to tell a story on the level of those game? A few post up, we have a few users that just cant wait for Flynn to in a sense, show up Sonic Team up, but it should be expected because his main and only priority is writing/Narrative. Starting with Colors Sonic Team has adopted a minimalist approach. In SA1 - Unleashed we had cutscence before and after each level, while in LW we can blow through many levels without any strory advancement all resulting in just abruptness of everything. Creating a quality game definitely took the front seat here.

Whether the priority to tell a story on the level of those games is completely besides the point being made. And frankly, anyone who says that probably doesn't know how basic storytelling or game design works, much less how these two are developed and how the two can work together.

You brought up how the comics can build tension throughout multiple issues while games like Lost World were only one game, but previous games have shown that they themselves can build just as much tension in themselves despite being one game due to the audience having control, one example being boss fights where there's an actual chance the character can lose and die, even more if the game puts something at risk that they need to beat the boss fight for. Creating a quality game does not excuse abrupt and disjointed storytelling like LW had, regardless of whether you going a minimalist approach or the approach done in games like SA1, SA2, and Unleashed. Heck, even Colors and Generations proved just that, and those had equally small, if not smaller plots than Lost World. And basic storytelling in the way people are wanting to be coherent at the very least doesn't require the same amount of resources as other parts of the game, like level design, programming, control mapping, quality assurance and beta testing, and so forth. So even if it a quality game took the front seat they can still deliver quite a story for an audience that seeks it.

Edited December 29, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[RappedinBlacX]

Whether the priority to tell a story on the level of those games is completely besides the point being made. And frankly, anyone who says that probably doesn't know how basic storytelling or game design works, much less how these two are developed and how the two can work together.

You brought up how the comics can build tension throughout multiple issues while games like Lost World were only one game, but previous games have shown that they themselves can build just as much tension in themselves despite being one game due to the audience having control, one example being boss fights where there's an actual chance the character can lose and die, even more if the game puts something at risk that they need to beat the boss fight for. Creating a quality game does not excuse abrupt and disjointed storytelling like LW had, regardless of whether you going a minimalist approach or the approach done in games like SA1, SA2, and Unleashed. Heck, even Colors and Generations proved just that, and those had equally small, if not smaller plots than Lost World. And basic storytelling in the way people are wanting to be coherent at the very least doesn't require the same amount of resources as other parts of the game, like level design, programming, control mapping, quality assurance and beta testing, and so forth. So even if it a quality game took the front seat they can still deliver quite a story for an audience that seeks it.

Priorities was the point I was attempting to make though. My first response was directed at users who would bet their money on Flynn outdoing Sonic Team. Well yeah. His main priority is writing and Narative. Ken and Pontac are freelance writers, who are contracted by SEGA to write a script in whatever box SEGA puts them in, " We want something lighthearted, dash of comedy and alittle bit of melodrama, but nothing  unfixable by end of game". Flynn is in a box too but the writers of comic definitely have more freedom to expand on concepts Sonic Team introduces. Im not defending the choice of storytelling, but pointing out differences in priorities that definitely falls in favor of Flynn. I was also not infering SEGA could not do both High quality game and storytelling but they "choose" to do only one. Hell, look at the art direction to LW! They gave off a bunch cheesy answers that amount to "Generations took alot of work and we didnt want to replicate that here" again priorities, choice. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Priorities was the point I was attempting to make though. My first response was directed at users who would bet their money on Flynn outdoing Sonic Team. Well yeah. His main priority is writing and Narative. Ken and Pontac are freelance writers, who are contracted by SEGA to write a script in whatever box SEGA puts them in, " We want something lighthearted, dash of comedy and alittle bit of melodrama, but nothing  unfixable by end of game". Flynn is in a box too but the writers of comic definitely have more freedom to expand on concepts Sonic Team introduces. Im not defending the choice of storytelling, but pointing out differences in priorities that definitely falls in favor of Flynn. I was also not infering SEGA could not do both High quality game and storytelling but they "choose" to do only one. Hell, look at the art direction to LW! They gave off a bunch cheesy answers that amount to "Generations took alot of work and we didnt want to replicate that here" again priorities, choice. 

Yet that's not really how it works in game design. You don't set priorities over what is more important to put in the development of the game in parameters of "game" or "story/narrative", you set a vision and make a game design document, and gain and utilize the resources to create it by setting up the teams (Concept Artist, 3D Modelers, Music/Sound, Screenplay, Engineering and Programming, Marketing, etc.) and giving them their assignments in order to see it to life while the one in charge of the project, the Game Producer, contributes in having the team work together in combining their talents into that vision.

And yes, the story is actually part of that vision (i.e. Screenplay), decided like everything else when it goes into making that game - when the one in charge wants to take things in a lighter direction, it'll say so in the Game Design Doc; if they want to take things a bit darker and intense, it'll say so in the Game Design Doc. You'll notice that ever since we went 3D, no matter how big or small, Sonic games have always had a story. And they don't have big or small one because they were making priorities, it was because they decided to have a big or small one from the get go - notice how, for all it's flaws, Lost World has way more story than Generations?

The main reason Flynn has more freedom is because he's in charge of the direction of the comics, and makes a lot of the decisions as the comic equivalent of the Game Producer. At least for the most part - he still answers to his bosses and Sonic Team who can veto his ideas or tell him what to do, but he has more authority than the likes of Pontac and Graff who have to go along with whatever direction the Game Producer decides to go in the Game Design Doc. Heck, as much as I would want him to, it's often for that very reason I don't recommend Flynn writing for the games, because he wouldn't have that control he does for the comics and might end up frustrated as a result.

Edited December 30, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[RappedinBlacX]

Yet that's not really how it works in game design. You don't set priorities over what is more important to put in the development of the game in parameters of "game" or "story/narrative", you set a vision and make a game design document, and gain and utilize the resources to create it by setting up the teams (Concept Artist, 3D Modelers, Music/Sound, Screenplay, Tech and Programming, Marketing, etc.) and giving them their assignments in order to see it to life while the one in charge of the project, the Game Producer, contributes in having the team work together in combining their talents into that vision.

And yes, the story is actually part of that vision, decided like everything else when it goes into making that game - when the one in charge wants to take things in a lighter direction, it'll say so in the Game Design Doc; if they want to take things a bit darker and intense, it'll say so in the Game Design Doc. You'll notice that ever since we went 3D, no matter how big or small, Sonic games have always had a story. And they don't have big or small one because they were making priorities, it was because they decided to have a big or small one from the get go - notice how, for all it's flaws, Lost World has way more story than Generations?

The main reason Flynn has more freedom is because he's in charge of the direction of the comics, and makes a lot of the decisions as the comic equivalent of the Game Producer. At least for the most part - he still answers to his bosses and Sonic Team who can veto his ideas or tell him what to do, but he has more authority than the likes of Pontac and Graff who have to go along with whatever direction the Game Producer decides to go in the Game Design Doc. Heck, as much as I would want him to, it's often for that very reason I don't recommend Flynn writing for the games, because he wouldn't have that control he does for the comics and might end up frustrated as a result.

Im giving you a thumbs up. You have grealty expanded on what Ive been saying. Im being overly general so that we move into "this" area, because thats not the point of my post. Your third paragraph is exactly what Im taking about in regards to Flynn vs Ken and Pontac but with more depth than whats necessary to get my point across. As for Generations I actually answered that in the first post you qouted. Generations is an Anniversary/Crossover that has plot not intended to advance the mythos in any way, but just to set up why its happening.Its 100% throway. Have you played Marvel vs CAPCOM 3? Remember the preview comic thats sets the events of the game up but in the actual game it plays no real relevance at. Thats Generations styoryline. Im sure Sonic Teams intends LW to come after Colors and LW is definitely a step down froms colors in regards to plot.

[Miles Storzillo]

(Sheesh, will we ever hear of the next Sonic game?  I’m getting kinda tired of bumping these topics just so I have something to talk about)

To answer your question, I don’t think it was necessary.  Granted, Sonic Colors is the only post Unleashed game I hold any kind of animosity towards.  Lost World and Forces were fine in my eyes.  Still, I long for the day when stories were more serious like Unleashed.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

I agree there should be a plot/cutscene heavy 3D series and a 2D less plot oriented series.