Is there any merit to a "mature" Sonic story?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

20 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The fact that Megaman practically an entirely new series to push more serious stories is not a thing that should be overlooked. That is kind of the whole point; the characters and setting of the classic Megaman games could not support the kind of stories that MMX and later variants tell. It's like Sonic Boom, but a tonal shift in the opposite direction, and with a couple of breadcrumbs linking them canonically.

And I don't mean to say that every Sonic game has to be tonally identical to Sonic 1, but that it established a sort of baseline, and there's a limited range away from that that it can reasonably cover. SA pushes towards the darker edge. Most people seem to agree that it's still within a reasonable distance, but that's not proof that we can take the ball and run it arbitrarily further and still have things work.

That depends on what you're talking about running further.

It says alot that SA was able to get off with ancient, bloodthirsty monsters, military conspiracies, and themes of revenge, things that weren't present prior to the jump to 3D.

Meanwhile, ShTH brought in realistic projectile weapons, aliens and swearing, which tanked everything about the franchise. And then STH'06, would try to redo what SA1 did and fail spectacularly (and then some).

I wouldn't say that Sonic 1 established a baseline that sets things so rigidly tho, as that baseline has been stretched pretty far with the more well recieved entries of games. I mean, I actually find it amazing how out of all the dark and edgily stuff people call out, I've seen only ONE person on these forums complain about Dark Gaia bleeding to death when Sonic shot through its eye. Oh yeah, remember that gruesome scene? ShTH ain't got shit on that.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, JohnTheDreamer said:

Ooh, great points. Really great. I actually overlooked the fact that the series itself branched off to fit the new stories. So I wonder. Sonic has been a thing for so long, and gone through so many of his own evolutions. Could individual Sonic games have their own atmospheres? Like, could Dark Knight be a Mega Man X?

Well Megaman was able to make a clean break between Classic and X. Different characters, different setting, both running in parallel (at least for a while). Fans of only one Megaman could be assured that their Megaman would still be around and wouldn't be "polluted" by the other. If the Sonic series were to have similarly divergent tones, I would imagine it'd have to have a similarly clean break. Arguably that sort of thing already exists between different mediums; the Archie Sonic universe can go off doing its own thing without it influencing how the game-Sonic universe is doing (though there's clear influence in the other direction).

I feel like it's not that likely to happen with the games, though. For one thing the games are already doing something similar with Boom, and a third game universe is probably too much to handle. Even if Boom withers up and dies, given Sega's and the series' condition it might not be the smartest move to rush into another 'verse right afterwards.

And frankly I think the idea of "Serious Sonic" has been too poisoned by its failures at this point. The poor attempts have put a lot of people against it, and I don't think even a new universe is going to change their minds.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

In theory, I think mature stories can be written about virtually anything if done right. In practice...ehh. I guess I've personally given up on the idea of Sonic telling "mature" stories - in the games, at least. I agree that the comics (as they are now, anyway) have done a pretty good job at being serious when they have to be. I'm not saying I don't want conflict or I only want constant jokes, but when it comes to being serious, mature, deep, etc...well, I just plain don't believe in the Sonic series' ability to tell such stories, considering how problematic-at-best and embarrassing-at-worst their past attempts have been.

If it were able to tell stories like that while feeling faithful to its own basic premise, I think it could work. Maybe that's why Sonic Adventure's story felt so good to me. A lot of the game felt so consistent with what had come before - a mystical monster connected with the mystical emeralds present from the very first game, all the characters, themes, and settings being pretty faithful to what they'd always done, even if they "took it up a notch" in some ways, etc. While I certainly don't hate Sonic Adventure 2's story, it definitely doesn't resonate with me in the same way.

If you can tell a mature story that doesn't conflict with the basic ideas and feel of Sonic, fantastic. Go for it. Personally, I honestly don't trust Sega or Sonic Team to do that.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Being fair though, Classic Mega Man can have serious stories, and it can be done well. Again, Archie Mega Man has taken plots which is basically...well...

But Archie Mega Man made it into a really great story about the morality of robot masters, if they can disobey their programming, and if it's truly right to destroy or deactivate robots that are clearly alive, and even that took the characters and really made them better. Proto-Man in the games is just a guy with no real reason for being a douche in MM3. Archie Mega Man builds him up and builds his motivations up from at least Issue 2 onwards, and it's clearly explained very well and very sympathetically that Proto-Man was afraid his personality would be altered, and decided he'd prefer to go on his own terms rather than not being himself anymore, and then got caught up in a tragic tale of betrayal, trickery, and sibling rivalry. Issue #54 of Mega Man is honestly one of my all time favourite stories for how good of a conclusion it was to Proto-Man's first character arc, and his transition from Break Man to Proto-Man.

21 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

obvious gore

Trust me, if you've ever seen Modern Spongebob, or basically most recent Nick shows, you would realize just how much they've thrown that rule out.

[azoo]

I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is that Sonic doesn't even need to be super serious to make you care.

And I think that's all most people who are dismayed with the new stuff really want. Like said, nothing about the classics or Adventures (or even Unleashed or the Rush games or the Storybook titles even) were all that deep or too serious (even SA2 is hammy and borderline-self-aware at times). BUT things were developed in a way that you could learn to care about the characters, their world, and the events happening to the story, and there were underlying morals that held it together.

And in turn, that makes you want to know more about what Sonic's world is like, how characters interact and feel about each other, just how far down the rabbit hole the Chaos Emeralds and general world mythos goes, and it really goes on. The genuinity really captures the interest of the players, and when done right is nothing but a good thing for the series.

That's what the series needs. A reason to care again!

[Kuzu]

At this point, the fans and public are so ingrained that Sonic should always be super kiddy happy fun time adventures because of a previous failure at trying to be more mature, I doubt the series will ever touch anything more complicated than "Sonic fights Eggman while cracking one-liners" ever again. There's no reason why they can't, but nobody is willing to entertain that idea cuz we have to constantly be reminded how bad his games got 10 years ago, and will continuously be reminded until the end of time probably :V

The comics don't get put under as much fire because its a branch of the main games, even at their absolute worst, they have never received the amount of bile that the game series still receives to this day for its past failures. Combine that with author and editors that regularly interact with fans on a public forum, and they have all of the ingredients they need to bounce back and get people interested again.

So in short; Could the video game series explore things more complex than what's currently being written? Yea, there's absolutely no reason why Sonic can't explore certain themes and whatnot. That doesn't mean they're actually going to though because the people have spoken and because of the constant parroting of "Sonic is a cartoon, and therefore for kids", it has ensured that Sega will continue to cater to this crowd and the games will just keep going as is. 

But hey, at least we'll never get another game like the ones from the early 2000's amirite.

[Diogenes]

 

11 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

But Archie Mega Man made it into a really great story about the morality of robot masters, if they can disobey their programming, and if it's truly right to destroy or deactivate robots that are clearly alive, and even that took the characters and really made them better. Proto-Man in the games is just a guy with no real reason for being a douche in MM3. Archie Mega Man builds him up and builds his motivations up from at least Issue 2 onwards, and it's clearly explained very well and very sympathetically that Proto-Man was afraid his personality would be altered, and decided he'd prefer to go on his own terms rather than not being himself anymore, and then got caught up in a tragic tale of betrayal, trickery, and sibling rivalry. Issue #54 of Mega Man is honestly one of my all time favourite stories for how good of a conclusion it was to Proto-Man's first character arc, and his transition from Break Man to Proto-Man.

"Build up" is a pretty important phrase, there. Archie Megaman has worked as well as it has in part because it was able to start at the beginning, to take bits and pieces that may have been hinted at in the games, as well as some new ideas, and integrate them into their versions of the characters and events naturally. It's basically a reboot, which is more than a little different than taking this 25 year old series and deciding that now, right now, we're going to start being serious with it.

And even then, when Megaman gets serious it's of a different tone than X.

Also worth noting, the structure and needs of a comic are also a lot different from those of games. If I was playing a Megaman game and had to read through a fairly long conversation about the ethics of murdering robots before each boss fight, I probably wouldn't enjoy it as much as I do reading about it in the comics.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

 

"Build up" is a pretty important phrase, there. Archie Megaman has worked as well as it has in part because it was able to start at the beginning, to take bits and pieces that may have been hinted at in the games, as well as some new ideas, and integrate them into their versions of the characters and events naturally. It's basically a reboot, which is more than a little different than taking this 25 year old series and deciding that now, right now, we're going to start being serious with it.

And even then, when Megaman gets serious it's of a different tone than X.

Also worth noting, the structure and needs of a comic are also a lot different from those of games. If I was playing a Megaman game and had to read through a fairly long conversation about the ethics of murdering robots before each boss fight, I probably wouldn't enjoy it as much as I do reading about it in the comics.

I agree with most of your points here. My point wasn't that the original MM series was serious or needed rebooted with seriousness. My point is that it can be done, and it can be done well. Sonic has more of a chance of being serious because those serious plots were done before in the series, even if two or three of them really didn't pan out well at all. Mega Man hasn't really done that, with the only exception being Super Adventure Rockman, and even the creators of MM didn't like that because Capcom just auctioned it off to a random developer who basically fucked up what they were going for with the Classic series, and leaving Inafune to clean up his mess after he bailed on the project.

[Nepenthe]

20 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Trust me, if you've ever seen Modern Spongebob, or basically most recent Nick shows, you would realize just how much they've thrown that rule out.

Bad word usage on my part; I'm talking about torture-porn levels of gore like you'll find in the Saw franchise or Evil Dead, not the exaggerated gross-out stuff Nick is known for, or even the kind of violence found in the classic Looney Tunes or Tom and Jerry.

[Diogenes]

13 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I agree with most of your points here. My point wasn't that the original MM series was serious or needed rebooted with seriousness. My point is that it can be done, and it can be done well. Sonic has more of a chance of being serious because those serious plots were done before in the series, even if two or three of them really didn't pan out well at all.

I don't think Sonic's previous attempts at being serious are really all that much help, because they're not really woven into the fabric of the series, they've just sort of been plastered around it. With Megaman, the Archie comics were able to take some bits from the games and build some complex issues into Megaman the character, and explore things like how he's not violent by nature (or by...base programming, I guess), how he doesn't want to destroy other robots, but how he still chooses to take on that burden anyway.

But what issues are there to explore with Sonic himself? Or Tails, or Eggman, or Amy. Knuckles kinda had some stuff with being the last of his kind, but SA pretty much settled that stuff. The Sonic series' attempt at being serious have largely been in the form of "here's a new character, here's their issue, throw Sonic at it until solved". It leaves the main characters feeling like outsiders relative to the supposed "meat" of the story.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Diogenes said:

I don't think Sonic's previous attempts at being serious are really all that much help, because they're not really woven into the fabric of the series, they've just sort of been plastered around it. With Megaman, the Archie comics were able to take some bits from the games and build some complex issues into Megaman the character, and explore things like how he's not violent by nature (or by...base programming, I guess), how he doesn't want to destroy other robots, but how he still chooses to take on that burden anyway.

But what issues are there to explore with Sonic himself? Or Tails, or Eggman, or Amy. Knuckles kinda had some stuff with being the last of his kind, but SA pretty much settled that stuff. The Sonic series' attempt at being serious have largely been in the form of "here's a new character, here's their issue, throw Sonic at it until solved". It leaves the main characters feeling like outsiders relative to the supposed "meat" of the story.

Well, at the risk of sparking a Lost World debate. As much as I hate Lost World's story, I won't lie when I said they did have a good idea with Sonic's development. He is brash, and impulsive, and a bit too snarky for his own good. He has character flaws, and those can easily tie into a good character driven story for him, but the problem is in my own personal opinion, I just don't think Lost World did much of a good job with that idea, as interesting as it is. Not to drone on about Archie Sonic again, but Archie Sonic really did a good job of creating plots that hinged on the main characters. Eggman's complete breakdown at the end of Worlds Collide is the exact reason why the Shattered World Crisis occurred, as well as Sonic's idea of everything being black and white, when in reality, characters really got forced into a bad situation and had to throw their hat in with Eggman such as Bunnie's uncle. 

Amy's got the character flaws of not giving a shit about Sonic's feelings, and honestly acting like Hyper Fangirl from the NC videos where Amy's ready to kidnap him in order to force him into marriage, and on top of that, just really being far too angry, and being too much of a control freak for her own good. A good plot would be based on resolving those issues for Amy and in general making her less of a nutcase character.

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 

But what issues are there to explore with Sonic himself? Or Tails, or Eggman, or Amy. Knuckles kinda had some stuff with being the last of his kind, but SA pretty much settled that stuff. The Sonic series' attempt at being serious have largely been in the form of "here's a new character, here's their issue, throw Sonic at it until solved". It leaves the main characters feeling like outsiders relative to the supposed "meat" of the story.

Sonic's a drifter who's seen probably every inch of the world, Tails is an orphan who was ostracized, Eggman seemingly looked up to his grandfather in the past, etc etc. You mean to tell me you can't explore anything about that?

[Nepenthe]

Yeah, SA1 did pretty well in using the characters' motivations as actual fodder for internal development and interaction with old and new characters. Even if you want to make the argument that those arcs are completely exhausted, it doesn't prevent any writer from making narratives that ask for audience investment by merely asking how the characters would react to new situations or weird character team-ups. As much as I rag Lost World's end results, its goals were going in the right direction in this regard. Seriously, people aren't asking for Scorsese to write the scripts from now on. We just want a reason to be invested.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Sonic's a drifter who's seen probably every inch of the world, Tails is an orphan who was ostracized, Eggman seemingly looked up to his grandfather in the past, etc etc. You mean to tell me you can't explore anything about that?

I'm sure any decent writer could come up with some things, but how many ideas are there that are actually properly rooted in the characters as they exist now, and wouldn't feel like they came out of left field? We've all seen how some people felt about what Lost World tried to add to the characters. 25 years into canon is a pretty long time to wait before adding to/exploring a character's depth.

Also I don't think Tails is canonically an orphan? No more than any other character in the series without known parents, at least.

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

I'm sure any decent writer could come up with some things, but how many ideas are there that are actually properly rooted in the characters as they exist now, and wouldn't feel like they came out of left field? We've all seen how some people felt about what Lost World tried to add to the characters. 25 years into canon is a pretty long time to wait before adding to/exploring a character's depth.

Also I don't think Tails is canonically an orphan? No more than any other character in the series without known parents, at least.

Lost World gets flak because of its execution, but it had the right idea.I mean, these characters have been around for over two decades, I've seen fanfic writers come up with depth that explores more than what the games do, and no it never feels out of left field. I'd question the quality of a writing staff if they can't find anything to explore out of a cast that's been established for 25 years :\

[shdowhunt60]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Undertale was designed for it from the start. Everything within it was built with the expectation of fitting into that structure. Sonic was not.

Right, just like how Captain America was designed to be a post-modernist, idealist, that was alienated by a morally grey world. That was totally planned at the start.

Designs change. That's how ideas stay relevant, they evolve. They adapt.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'd question the quality of a writing staff if they can't find anything to explore out of a cast that's been established for 25 years :\

Doesn’t help they limit themselves with strange unnecessary rules... like from what I heard how SEGA won't deal with families of the main reoccurring character cast who don’t already have them. Unless I’m mistaken about that, but seems like I’ve read that somewhere… I’m not sure how much it matters tho, as I could easily see Sonic-Team breaking any of their own secret rules if they felt like it.

[Diogenes]

And every change risks alienating fans of the current direction.

And I wouldn't doubt that the Cap'n has gone through a number of reboots to reach that point, not just tacking it onto an eternally growing continuity.

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

And every change risks alienating fans of the current direction.

And I wouldn't doubt that the Cap'n has gone through a number of reboots to reach that point, not just tacking it onto an eternally growing continuity.

Not changing at all can also alienate fans if you wanna look at Sonic, so that's pointless. So really, it shouldn't matter either way.

[Jhreamer]

So.

Tension and tragedy is satisfying, as long as it is balanced with fitting humor and joy, and doesn't descend into melodrama.

Mature content is extremely achievable without elements like blood and swearing; such things would only dig a Sonic story into a hole.

Instead, high-dimension characters, whose complex emotions, motives, and actions are sufficiently explained; do wonders for the maturity of a story such as this.

There are many more gathered summaries in my mind, but I'm currently stationary biking and I'm a slow-ass mobile typer.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Yeah, considering most fans don't like Potac and Graff's writing (In fact, the majority of them seem to hate what they've done to the characters in general), not changing can serious risk making things worse and causing more fans to leave. Most people were extremely disappointed with Generations' lack of story despite a really interesting premise for example.

[Nepenthe]

While people can have completely unsubstantiated criticisms against Lost World, that should not be construed as actual validity of its story. It also rightfully gets shit on because it fucked up the moral implications of the characters' thoughts and actions. This isn't a condemnation of adding to the characters anymore than the dissatisfaction with the current direction is a thumbs up for Sonic 06 2.

[Jhreamer]

I'd like this NOT to turn into a Lost World exclusive discussion, but...I'm also compelled to add:

I actually felt satisfaction from the Lost World story for the sole reason that Tails actually DID SOMETHING. But they invalidated it through introducing Knuckles and Amy right off the bat and giving them 2 minutes of helpless screen time. Utilization of characters, in a sensible and appropriate way, is so key.

[Wraith]

22 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Right, just like how Captain America was designed to be a post-modernist, idealist, that was alienated by a morally grey world. That was totally planned at the start.

Designs change. That's how ideas stay relevant, they evolve. They adapt.

That was part of an attempt to completely reinvent the character at the outset. Literally and figuratively dragging him into the 21st century. It was a pretty drastic change and I don't think Sonic's tone or main cast needs any huge shakeup like that. They're fine as they are. It literally comes down to just writing it better

[Nepenthe]

I think the point is moreso that a series doesn't have to stick with the tone and storytelling conventions it started out with just because they were the foundation. Archie Sonic is the prime example of this happening within a much shorter time period to warrant arguing that it could have stayed within its wacky roots at the comic's beginning versus reinventing itself. Teen Titans is another.