Is there any merit to a "mature" Sonic story?

[Jhreamer]

That reminds me of something.

Harry Potter.

Extremely gradual shift in tone. 

It occurred in a very jointed, deliberately paced series. How would a switch of tone such as that translate to a more segmented placing of scenarios like Sonic games?

[Toa Axis]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Look back at the start of the series. Here's what we had at the beginning: Our protagonist, a Mickey Mouse-esque talking animal, he's a bit of a punk, but still cute. Our antagonist, a rotund man named "Eggman", an archetypical mad scientist who kidnaps animals and uses them to power animal-based robots. Our setting, a stylized Earth-like planet, a place that's a little bit sci-fi and a little bit magical fantasy. Our story, a cool dude bops robots and collects magic rocks to save his friends and protect the planet from the greedy, self-absorbed mad scientist, who always gets away to cause trouble again.

This...is kid's stuff. This is not something designed for mature, challenging themes. 

That really isn't true, though.

At the time, Sonic's creators claimed that discussing environmental issues was a sensitive subject. Cool. So how did they express their opinion on environmental issues? Our favorite Blue Blur!

Sonic's entire premise is based around the theme that man's excessive use of technology can and will be a detriment to the world we live in. Robotnik, the only human in the game, enslaves and uses animals to power his machines. Mechanical things in Sonic were, for the most part, being presented as Bad Things, something that paralleled what the creators thought: that man's technology, taken to its extreme, would be at the expense of the world we live in.

Sonic CD went even further with this with the time traveling mechanic. Go into the past, everything was calm, beautiful, and tranquil. The present was still nice, but Robotnik's machines were starting to become more prevalent. Travel to the future, everything that was nice and pretty and natural before is now replaced with dark, cold machinery. The game encourages the player to prevent such futures from occurring.

Sonic, from the beginning, was designed to communicate a challenging, relevant, and mature theme. Now on paper, what you describe is kiddy. But if you pierce through the surface, you'll find what you claim was not possible within Sonic's world.

(I apologize for any typos, I did this all on my phone)

[Kuzu]

Its not like this series hasn't tackled specific themes beyond the "grimdark" games; Sonic Rush is about learning to deal with loneliness and opening up to people, Sonic Unleashed is about duality and discovering yourself, Sonic & Black Knight explores the concept finality and the fact that something we love will one day come to an end, etc. etc. Like come on, I'm kind of incredulous at how some people can only look at the "serious" games and believe that the series never tries to explore some actual complex themes. :\

[Jhreamer]

On 1/3/2016 at 6:03 PM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Its not like this series hasn't tackled specific themes beyond the "grimdark" games; Sonic Rush is about learning to deal with loneliness and opening up to people, Sonic Unleashed is about duality and discovering yourself, Sonic & Black Knight explores the concept finality and the fact that something we love will one day come to an end, etc. etc. Like come on, I'm kind of incredulous at how some people can only look at the "serious" games and believe that the series never tries to explore some actual complex themes. :\

It's not that they didn't try; it's that they did so in a manner that betrayed questionable storytelling, and was difficult for most people to digest. Thus, the good intentions were overlooked because "it doesn't make sense. It's just stupid." [\overgeneralization of panners

That's my take, anyway. I don't dislike Black Knight's story.

Edited February 13, 2016 by JohnTheDreamer
The only time I've ever missed a "thats" typo....

[LATER BUDDY]

IDK.

Honestly and I might get flack for this, but I think it's inherently the character designs themselves paired with their history that prevent the Sonic series from being anything  "mature" for future titles. In a quote on quote mature description you're asking your audience to immerse themselves into a compelling story with either darker or mature themes, many of which are characters with real interactions with each other on a semi serious level. I mean of course not every mature thing under the sun is this, but the thing however is I feel people want a more "mature" Sonic game in the sense that it's not dumbed down to only jokes and plot someone 12 and under will bust a gut at. I almost feel like most people would want a true family level rating not unlike a Pixar film. Like Azoo stated, we just want to care about what's happening to the world and the characters, and it's hard to do that if you're being to bubbly or too edgy.

But if we're talking solely on "can we go back to something like Shadow or 06 or something but try and rework it to make it good?" I think the answer is no, unless we're going to completely remove the idea of humans being involved. I think most people just can't have the two side by side and have a plot that's pretty serious and well, taken seriously. They're super cartoon ass creatures and their established personalities and characteristics hardly match "our" world. While I haven't read any Archie stuffs, from what I've seen around it doesn't seem like humans are a dealeo in it and it's mostly just other critters like the rest of the Sonic cast, and that helps put you in a suspense of disbelief if you're asking the audience to immerse themselves in a world full of these things instead of shoehorning them into ours.

I think there is totally a way to have a more immersive story with these characters and world without having to resort to doomsdays or death or humans or what have you. As many poo-poos as Boom gets I think it has the right idea at heart anyway, it was just executed pretty dang poorly. It is exactly trying to make Sonic in its own fantasy world with a little more depth and interaction with the characters and world while retaining their current personalities and characteristics. It's just the writing and execution that falls flat (gameplay atrocities aside). If the main series could have the same blueprint yet be executed in a way where we actually care linked with a stellar game, I'm sure many of us would be foaming at the mouth that we have a well played Sonic game thats more than just "HEH I'M SANIC AND I'M RUNNIN X LEVEL AND KICKIN EGGMANS BUTT YO." Granted theres nothing wrong with that formula either depending on the game and goal, but you get my point lmao.

Anyway I don't expect everyone to agree of course but just my thoughts on the matter

[shdowhunt60]

13 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I think the point is moreso that a series doesn't have to stick with the tone and storytelling conventions it started out with just because they were the foundation. Archie Sonic is the prime example of this happening within a much shorter time period to warrant arguing that it could have stayed within its wacky roots at the comic's beginning versus reinventing itself. Teen Titans is another. 

Heh. The comics are a really good example of that. From Mike Gallagher, to Penders/Bollers, to Ian Flynn. Hell, there's almost a night and day difference from what Ian was doing early on to what he is doing now.

[Jhreamer]

2 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Heh. The comics are a really good example of that. From Mike Gallagher, to Penders/Bollers, to Ian Flynn. Hell, there's almost a night and day difference from what Ian was doing early on to what he is doing now.

Indeed, but that can be partially due to the restrictions that have been locked around him in the past few years. I think most of us agree he's worked around those restrictions with incredible deftness.

Then again, if you're talking tone/theme, he likely hasn't been as choked in that regard.

[Kuzu]

34 minutes ago, Wolfy said:

IDK.

Honestly and I might get flack for this, but I think it's inherently the character designs themselves paired with their history that prevent the Sonic series from being anything  "mature" for future titles. In a quote on quote mature description you're asking your audience to immerse themselves into a compelling story with either darker or mature themes, many of which are characters with real interactions with each other on a semi serious level. I mean of course not every mature thing under the sun is this, but the thing however is I feel people want a more "mature" Sonic game in the sense that it's not dumbed down to only jokes and plot someone 12 and under will bust a gut at. I almost feel like most people would want a true family level rating not unlike a Pixar film. Like Azoo stated, we just want to care about what's happening to the world and the characters, and it's hard to do that if you're being to bubbly or too edgy.

But if we're talking solely on "can we go back to something like Shadow or 06 or something but try and rework it to make it good?" I think the answer is no, unless we're going to completely remove the idea of humans being involved. I think most people just can't have the two side by side and have a plot that's pretty serious and well, taken seriously. They're super cartoon ass creatures and their established personalities and characteristics hardly match "our" world. While I haven't read any Archie stuffs, from what I've seen around it doesn't seem like humans are a dealeo in it and it's mostly just other critters like the rest of the Sonic cast, and that helps put you in a suspense of disbelief if you're asking the audience to immerse themselves in a world full of these things instead of shoehorning them into ours.

I think there is totally a way to have a more immersive story with these characters and world without having to resort to doomsdays or death or humans or what have you. As many poo-poos as Boom gets I think it has the right idea at heart anyway, it was just executed pretty dang poorly. It is exactly trying to make Sonic in its own fantasy world with a little more depth and interaction with the characters and world while retaining their current personalities and characteristics. It's just the writing and execution that falls flat (gameplay atrocities aside). If the main series could have the same blueprint yet be executed in a way where we actually care linked with a stellar game, I'm sure many of us would be foaming at the mouth that we have a well played Sonic game thats more than just "HEH I'M SANIC AND I'M RUNNIN X LEVEL AND KICKIN EGGMANS BUTT YO." Granted theres nothing wrong with that formula either depending on the game and goal, but you get my point lmao.

Anyway I don't expect everyone to agree of course but just my thoughts on the matter

I want to start by saying that I'm not directly addressing your words Wolfy, just the bolded statement in particular.

Now you see, and this grinds my gears so fucking much. This isn't what anybody wants, like not even remotely close. Nobody I have heard that wants something more complex and mature than what we've been currently getting within the series has ever said anything along the lines of "I want something like Shadow the Hedgehog or Sonic 06". It is generally considered those games are extremely poor examples of the series trying to add depth, so why would anyone want to go back to that?

This is what bothers me so much about the reception of those games and something I touched upon in my first post. For some reason, those two games have such a stranglehold on the public perception of this series that whenever anybody that tries to suggest Sonic should try to be complex, its instantly met with some variation of "lol dumbass, u just want more Bestiality and Ow the Edge". And those people only get more validated when the series is actively putting down and removing any sort of elements from those games, as if to say "Yea, those games were completely dumb and you're completely justified in shitting on them" .

I'm just really sick of being treated like wanting something more out of the series beyond what we've been getting is automatically labelled as wanting the series to start jumping the shark again and reintroduce elements that weren't very popular. Its unfair, and it only stifles what can actually be done with the series. Woah, can't have Sonic be too complex now, lest we go back to swearing and using SMG's :\

This isn't an attack on you Wolfy, as I do agree that there's a certain nuance that should be approached when dealing with something like this. My issue is mainly is how people aren't willing to explore these nuances out of some primal fear that trying to push the envelope will automatically lead things back to how they were ten years ago, cuz reasons I guess?

[Ether Penguin]

I've often felt like the issue with story in Sonic games isn't so much about tone as it is substance. Whether it goes for a darker angle or continues with the lighter Saturday morning cartoon feel of the recent games is doesn't matter as long as there isn't actual meat to the story and both those tones can hold significant depth and both those tones can tell completely shallow stories.

Lots of action and a few jokes here and there just isn't enough for me to be honest and as the posters above me pointed out, being "for kids" isn't an apt excuse to avoid more substantial story telling. What I would be interested in is how people would welcome more character driven plots. Not to long ago there was some sort of survey that showed more women are interested in Sonic than males. Traditionally, marketing operates under the idea that men prefer action driven plots and women prefer character driven stories. Of course it's more complex than that in reality. I'm male and I prefer character driven storytelling, but nonetheless choosing to decide would officially be considered a marketing choice to target a female audience. I don't see anything wrong with that given the statistics support a strong female audience. Of course there would still be action and traditional vs. eggman conflict, but character development would take center stage. The Xenosaga series was said to be targeting a female audience according to Monolith Soft employees back in 2002, and it still had a plot-twist filled existential sci-fi plot on top of rich enneagram based character development. Balance would be key, but I feel a focus on fleshing out character that have remained nearly paper thin for years could help give Sonic plots that much needed substance.

Notably, Sonic Adventure dabbled in this. Tails' individuation and developing a stronger independent persona that could operate with Sonic's help was the main theme of Tails story for instance. Ultimately these were done in a rather shallow and not so subtle way, but it's a starting point and shows that Sonic Team had at one point tried to inject a little more character growth. Sonic Adventure 2 does a pretty decent enough job with Shadow as well. I honestly liked Adventure 2's story especially at the time when I was younger. It's aged and I don't think it's as great now but it's still a highlight for the series to me. A lot of people like to point at SA2 as the point where Sonic stories got to dark or edgy but I think it's a decent balance it should not be blamed for the tone of Shadow or 06. Shadow doesn't even come off as ow teh edge and emo in SA2 as some people want to believe he was. He was misguided and made idiotic decisions but it works in context. SA2 had two important elements. A theme of coping with losing someone and not pining over them to a point of unhealthiness is the big one and not something that I think is bad for children. I think that's a fine theme for a family targeted game that still holds a decent amount of depth. The other was the sort of subtle pygmalion story. People forget Shadow was an artificial life whose conscious was very young (he was around for 50 years but was only active for like a month). He didn't know how to cope with Maria's death and had to learn appropriate behavior as he gradually learned to assign a personality and a moral system to his empty vessel of an artificial body. It's a story about an A.I. learning what it means to be 'human' in a sense. There's nothing intrinsic about these stories being unable to work with 'kid's stuff', it's just a matter of execution and presentation. Adventure 2 made mistakes but it shouldn't be damned or should it damn the entire notion of more substantial storytelling.

Just some thoughts. I'm new by the way, so hi!

[Sparky]

From my perspective, the series has had the seeds rooted for deep stories from the very beginning, and they were contionuously fleshed out over the course of the series in different ways until about 5-6 years ago, where it was stunted by the direction of Colors, Generations, Lost World, and Boom in favor of comedy and stuff. 

[Jhreamer]

10 minutes ago, Ether Penguin said:

Just some thoughts. I'm new by the way, so hi!

That's one hell of an intro. You are very welcome here, and you have given me a crazy good first impression. Amazing post.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Now you see, and this grinds my gears so fucking much. This isn't what anybody wants, like not even remotely close.

I feel like this happens a lot, in both directions. Like, on a scale of one to ten, everyone is actually somewhere in the 4-7 range, but everyone feels like they're arguing against a 2 or a 9.

[D.H]

3 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Well, at the risk of sparking a Lost World debate. As much as I hate Lost World's story, I won't lie when I said they did have a good idea with Sonic's development. He is brash, and impulsive, and a bit too snarky for his own good. He has character flaws, and those can easily tie into a good character driven story for him, but the problem is in my own personal opinion, I just don't think Lost World did much of a good job with that idea, as interesting as it is. Not to drone on about Archie Sonic again, but Archie Sonic really did a good job of creating plots that hinged on the main characters. Eggman's complete breakdown at the end of Worlds Collide is the exact reason why the Shattered World Crisis occurred, as well as Sonic's idea of everything being black and white, when in reality, characters really got forced into a bad situation and had to throw their hat in with Eggman such as Bunnie's uncle. 

Amy's got the character flaws of not giving a shit about Sonic's feelings, and honestly acting like Hyper Fangirl from the NC videos where Amy's ready to kidnap him in order to force him into marriage, and on top of that, just really being far too angry, and being too much of a control freak for her own good. A good plot would be based on resolving those issues for Amy and in general making her less of a nutcase character.

While I disagree with the part of your post about Amy (about her not really giving a shit about Sonic's feelings), I do agree with the rest of it.

The Sonic characters do have traits that can give good & meaningful development. Like you said, a story can be done where Sonic's cockiness & arrogance could cost him. Lost World had the right idea, but it (as you pointed out) was horribly executed.

With Amy, it seems like they were going to give her character development in SA1, when she became a character that doesn't rely on Sonic all the time, but they just dropped it after SA2, when they started flanderizing her character to hell & back. I think one of the biggest complaints I have with the Sonic series, is how there is so much potential in some of the characters, so many stories that could develop their characters, but it's either badly executed, or when they do get it right, they just drop it. The series can have depth, it can have great & meaningful stories (regardless of the tone), but SEGA/Sonic Team either fucks it up, or they just outright drop it, for no good reason.

[LATER BUDDY]

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I want to start by saying that I'm not directly addressing your words Wolfy, just the bolded statement in particular.

Now you see, and this grinds my gears so fucking much. This isn't what anybody wants, like not even remotely close. Nobody I have heard that wants something more complex and mature than what we've been currently getting within the series has ever said anything along the lines of "I want something like Shadow the Hedgehog or Sonic 06". It is generally considered those games are extremely poor examples of the series trying to add depth, so why would anyone want to go back to that?

This is what bothers me so much about the reception of those games and something I touched upon in my first post. For some reason, those two games have such a stranglehold on the public perception of this series that whenever anybody that tries to suggest Sonic should try to be complex, its instantly met with some variation of "lol dumbass, u just want more Bestiality and Ow the Edge". And those people only get more validated when the series is actively putting down and removing any sort of elements from those games, as if to say "Yea, those games were completely dumb and you're completely justified in shitting on them" .

I'm just really sick of being treated like wanting something more out of the series beyond what we've been getting is automatically labelled as wanting the series to start jumping the shark again and reintroduce elements that weren't very popular. Its unfair, and it only stifles what can actually be done with the series. Woah, can't have Sonic be too complex now, lest we go back to swearing and using SMG's :\

This isn't an attack on you Wolfy, as I do agree that there's a certain nuance that should be approached when dealing with something like this. My issue is mainly is how people aren't willing to explore these nuances out of some primal fear that trying to push the envelope will automatically lead things back to how they were ten years ago, cuz reasons I guess?

Nah that's totally fair haha.

I think it's just because, well, that's the closest example we've had and people will naturally look to any existing example of such when presenting a new idea. Like hell if they made something that was more serious and whatnot that's no where close to any remnant of Shadow or 06 at all and succeed, I'd be fucking ecstatic and we could probably shove those old games well below 6 feet under by now. But sadly that's what we have for history, and when going off something new, that's all we can go on. Sonic's had a track record as of yet that every time it does explore any of this idea, it's been shaky at best, and I just think as more examples get tried out and fail, the less ecstatic people are becoming about running the idea again.

But yeah it's no where saying "we can't do x without retrying our past," it's just looking at what they've tried and seeing we haven't had that much success with it yet. Closest praise I've seen is some story elements of Unleashed and the 50/50 split on the community if Sonic Adventure was a good thing or not. But everything else has been less than stellar and I think it's hard to not ignore them when pushing forward. 'Cause people are passionate about the series of course and they don't yet another 6.1 on IGN or what have you.

Aaaaand a side note, there's a niche community that DOES want Shadow/06 again but worked upon, and yeah those people usually do get scoffed and laughed at relentlessly, and as result anyone bringing forward an idea remotely similar is probably subject to the same unfortunately. Just wanna say my bad for sorta even bringing it up and lumping this together haha. I think there's also just a general lean on "what if Sonic was Mario because look at how well Mario is doing," which is another subject all together and certain aspects can bug the shit out of me, but I feel is related because I think a lot of want for Sonic to go to a "back2rootzdawg" "Genesisdayzhomes" stems a bit from both nostalgia and watching another series follow this path and succeed. Not saying I want Sonic to devolve into a constant release of "SONIC 65: REMEMBER GREEN HILL ZONE?!" either, but just pointing out a mindset that I think has been a thing for a few years now, mostly thanks to Generations and Sonic 4 popping up.

In closing, on a personal level, I'm still more for being a middle road "why can't this be a cutesy bubbly Sonic game with a lot of heart and more meaningful undertones and than flatjokes" going in a Pixar-ish level of "da feelz" thing, but if said Sonic game did come out and was successful at being a more "mature" story and world and whatnot, I definitely wouldn't be apposed to such a thing 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

5 minutes ago, D.H said:

While I disagree with the part of your post about Amy (about her not really giving a shit about Sonic's feelings), I do agree with the rest of it.

The Sonic characters do have traits that can give good & meaningful development. Like you said, a story can be done where Sonic's cockiness & arrogance could cost him. Lost World had the right idea, but it (as you pointed out) was horribly executed.

With Amy, it seems like they were going to give her character development in SA1, when she became a character that doesn't rely on Sonic all the time, but they just dropped it after SA2, when they started flanderizing her character to hell & back. I think one of the biggest complaints I have with the Sonic series, is how there is so much potential in some of the characters, so many stories that could develop their characters, but it's either badly executed, or when they do get it right, they just drop it. The series can have depth, it can have great & meaningful stories (regardless of the tone), but SEGA/Sonic Team either fucks it up, or they just outright drop it, for no good reason.

When I said Sonic's feelings, I meant in terms of relationships. I.E, he doesn't have romantic feelings for Amy, but she still tries to force him into marriage.

[Jhreamer]

13 minutes ago, D.H said:

I think one of the biggest complaints I have with the Sonic series, is how there is so much potential in some of the characters, so many stories that could develop their characters, but it's either badly executed, or when they do get it right, they just drop it. The series can have depth, it can have great & meaningful stories (regardless of the tone), but SEGA/Sonic Team either fucks it up, or they just outright drop it, for no good reason.

YES. This is the crux of my discord that has pushed me to write my own story.

It seems to me, as well (could this be my first controversial assertion?), that people simply don't want to see Sonic displaying un-heroic qualities. That's exactly what I WANT to see in heroes -- I want their demons and inadequacies explored! A perfect hero is a boring hero (we were talking about Captain America -- even he, the impossibly mild man, constantly displays flaws). So far, Sonic has usually been portrayed as a very confident, optimistic, quip-spouting, justice-loving teen. His only personality weakness might be...overconfidence? When it's consistently backed up, people tend to dismiss such a trait, especially when it does others no harm. Maybe he is seen as obnoxious, but only by certain people.

Where is the interest there? I was personally okay with Sonic being callous to others' feelings, as well as impulsive and standoffish, during Ian Flynn's first dozen or so comics. I believe it was natural road for his character to take, ESPECIALLY with the intense tragedy they were undergoing. Let's not forget that almost all of these characters are considerably below adult age. They SHOULD have explosive tendencies and inconsistent moods (puberty, anyone?). Of course, such things, when explored in main storylines, should be very well thought out and justified. But...if you're not planning EVERY PART of your story with the same brevity, problems will CERTAINLY arise.

These are the things I want to get larger scope of opinions on, before I address them in plot.

[Nepenthe]

If we want to be honest, there isn't a 3D Sonic story that has been a raging success. So arguing against certain types of stories on the basis that they've been done badly before implies that other stories have just been freaking amazeballs, when that's not the case. Like, yeah, ShtH was ugly but, you know, Colors and Gens aren't fucking lookers themselves. And if it's come to the point that we're just arguing about different degrees of badness, that yeah the stories aren't great but at least they aren't super awful, then hell I might as well ask for something that's entertainingly awful if we're gonna be defeatist about it. So bring on the mind control...that's actually followed through this time. Seriously, no more narrative cockblocks like that. If Sonic stories have to be bad, then make them awesome bad.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

As bad as Shadow and 06 were, you could at least make the argument they attempted to create a interesting narrative, no matter how absolutely awful they turned out to be. Generations doesn't have that. They give up right after Chemical Plant, and they even knew that Classic Tails needed a cutscene to introduce him to the story, but they just said fuck it, and didn't bother creating it

[Ether Penguin]

9 minutes ago, JohnTheDreamer said:

YES. This is the crux of my discord that has pushed me to write my own story.

It seems to me, as well (could this be my first controversial assertion?), that people simply don't want to see Sonic displaying un-heroic qualities. That's exactly what I WANT to see in heroes -- I want their demons and inadequacies explored! A perfect hero is a boring hero (we were talking about Captain America -- even he, the impossibly mild man, constantly displays flaws). So far, Sonic has usually been portrayed as a very confident, optimistic, quip-spouting, justice-loving teen. His only personality weakness might be...overconfidence? When it's consistently backed up, people tend to dismiss such a trait, especially when it does others no harm. Maybe he is seen as obnoxious, but only by certain people.

Where is the interest there? I was personally okay with Sonic being callous to others' feelings, as well as impulsive and standoffish, during Ian Flynn's first dozen or so comics. I believe it was natural road for his character to take, ESPECIALLY with the intense tragedy they were undergoing. Let's not forget that almost all of these characters are considerably below adult age. They SHOULD have explosive tendencies and inconsistent moods (puberty, anyone?). Of course, such things, when explored in main storylines, should be very well thought out and justified. But...if you're not planning EVERY PART of your story with the same brevity, problems will CERTAINLY arise.

These are the things I want to get larger scope of opinions on, before I address them in plot.

I agree that a hero needs to be seen as less than heroic at times to be more believable but also more likable and easier to relate to. I guess that sounds a bit obvious but I'm also confused as to why people are uncomfortable with the idea. I recently watched an older Jim Sterling (escapist era) where he talked about Sonic's attitude and how is 90s cool kid persona didn't work when played straight in this decade. He suggested playing Sonic's tude and finger wagging in a more ironic way such as someone who thinks he's cool and tries too hard but the outdated way he displays that would have others see him as not that cool. Sterling stresses the need to do this in a subtle way and to an extent and I think this can work. I personally don't have a problem with 90s attitude and finger wagging, and there's probably other ways to do this, but it's still an interesting idea to give the character something more to work with. I hate the words 'Mary Stue' and and 'Gary Stue' especially since they've long lost their connection to self inserts but there is something to be said about making a character too flawless and Sonic's personality can be pretty bland sometimes as a result of Sonic Team making him appear too perfect or good.

[Kuzu]

30 minutes ago, Wolfy said:

Nah that's totally fair haha.

I think it's just because, well, that's the closest example we've had and people will naturally look to any existing example of such when presenting a new idea. Like hell if they made something that was more serious and whatnot that's no where close to any remnant of Shadow or 06 at all and succeed, I'd be fucking ecstatic and we could probably shove those old games well below 6 feet under by now. But sadly that's what we have for history, and when going off something new, that's all we can go on. Sonic's had a track record as of yet that every time it does explore any of this idea, it's been shaky at best, and I just think as more examples get tried out and fail, the less ecstatic people are becoming about running the idea again.

But yeah it's no where saying "we can't do x without retrying our past," it's just looking at what they've tried and seeing we haven't had that much success with it yet. Closest praise I've seen is some story elements of Unleashed and the 50/50 split on the community if Sonic Adventure was a good thing or not. But everything else has been less than stellar and I think it's hard to not ignore them when pushing forward. 'Cause people are passionate about the series of course and they don't yet another 6.1 on IGN or what have you.

Aaaaand a side note, there's a niche community that DOES want Shadow/06 again but worked upon, and yeah those people usually do get scoffed and laughed at relentlessly, and as result anyone bringing forward an idea remotely similar is probably subject to the same unfortunately. Just wanna say my bad for sorta even bringing it up and lumping this together haha. I think there's also just a general lean on "what if Sonic was Mario because look at how well Mario is doing," which is another subject all together and certain aspects can bug the shit out of me, but I feel is related because I think a lot of want for Sonic to go to a "back2rootzdawg" "Genesisdayzhomes" stems a bit from both nostalgia and watching another series follow this path and succeed. Not saying I want Sonic to devolve into a constant release of "SONIC 65: REMEMBER GREEN HILL ZONE?!" either, but just pointing out a mindset that I think has been a thing for a few years now, mostly thanks to Generations and Sonic 4 popping up.

In closing, on a personal level, I'm still more for being a middle road "why can't this be a cutesy bubbly Sonic game with a lot of heart and more meaningful undertones and than flatjokes" going in a Pixar-ish level of "da feelz" thing, but if said Sonic game did come out and was successful at being a more "mature" story and world and whatnot, I definitely wouldn't be apposed to such a thing 

I got you, its natural for people to be against ideas and directions that seemingly failed in the past out of fear of repeating the same mistakes. Its just annoying when it feels like even discussing the very idea of such a change is met with opposition under that assumption. Its like everyone has been burned by this series for so many years and are just tired of being disappointed and just assume absolute worst about things. Its a really shitty situation and its sad that the creators have let it get this bad for so many years with no sign of change in sight.

That's probably why so many people compare Sonic with so many other successful franchises like Mario or Ratchet & Clank and they cling so hard to nostalgia. We know the series is a shell of its former glory, so of course its easy to get caught up in thinking about when the series wasn't as bad as it would become. Sonic starts emulating Mario, so its natural people would latch onto to that, because Mario is a successful series and we'd all love to believe that taking cues from it would lead to similar results for Sonic. Its a wonderful ideal that I'm sure many people thought about when we started going into this current direction with the series ever since Sonic Colors. The nostalgia approach speaks for itself like you said, its pretty much "remembering the good times" .

So on that note, I understand; people do not want to relive the bad parts about the series cuz why would anyone want to relive what was arguably the lowest point of Sonic's entire career. So they'll see ideas and concepts that were similar to the ones from that time period and a red flag goes up in their head and we get extremely defensive because we do not want to be burned like that again. We got our guards up basically and its hard to put them down after so many years of being disappointed.

 

Honestly, when I think about it like that, it just kind of rings home that for all of us, we just want a Sonic game that we can truly enjoy and exemplifies the best parts about the series as a whole. And the most depressing part is that we will probably never get it with how the creators are running things lol. Because of that, its just made discussions like these inherently toxic and un-fun because we're all essentially a bunch of grumpy old citizens who want to relive our glory days. That's just my take on it though.

[D.H]

18 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

When I said Sonic's feelings, I meant in terms of relationships. I.E, he doesn't have romantic feelings for Amy, but she still tries to force him into marriage.

Funny enough, the only games where she tried to force Sonic into marriage, where the ones where she was poorly written (like Rush, Heroes, Battle). Meanwhile, games where she was written fine like Unleashed, SA1, Lost World, etc, never have her mention marriage. Dating? Yeah, but never marriage.

[Kaotic Kanine]

Exactly! The moments where Amy tries to force Sonic into marriage and acts like a "control freak" are blatant instances of crap writing and flanderization that, quite honestly, shouldn't be taken into consideration when judging Amy's entire character, especially since they go against her true character. Amy loves Sonic for who he is (a free spirited, adventurous hero) and the last thing she would want to or even think of doing is stripping him of his deeply cherished freedom, especially since she wants to join his free-spirited lifestyle as clearly seen in her opening in SA1. Amy respects Sonic and only wishes to earn his respect in return. Sure, she would very much like a date with him as well but if Sonic says "no", she ain't gonna argue, as seen in that Prison Cell Scene in SA2 (for the record, Amy asking Sonic to marry her in that scene was a complete fabrication from SoA. In the original Japanese script, Amy asks for a date in return for freeing Sonic and nothing more. And either way, she was clearly joking as she let him out despite his saying "No"). I mean, if we're going to label Amy a "temperamental control freak" over instances of blatant crap writing for her character then perhaps we should all start calling Knuckles a "raging buffoon" due to his own instances of blatant crap writing and flanderization.

[Jhreamer]

I was not expecting such a resounding response in this topic, and yesterday was absolutely incredible for meaningful discussion. I love these forums.

Here's something applicable. I was watching the video game speedrunning charity event, AGDQ, and I saw a Transformers: Devastation speedrun come on. My initial thought, as a non-Transformers fan, was "man, is Transformers really relevant? It's kind of just...stupid." It IMMEDIATELY dawned on me that tons of people feel that exact way about Sonic. I continued to watch the game, and it was quirky, funny, and simultaneously extremely cool with a lovely, urgent atmosphere.

It was such a great juxtaposition for me and my current inner debate with the tone of a Sonic world. And a reminder that I must always endeavor to keep my mind wide open 24/7.

[J&/MA/MC]

I don't think Sonic needs maturity as a narrative base more than as a vehicle for jokes really.

And I think we're all too oblivious to the fact that there's an "age ghetto" that blurs the line between what's mature and childish. Sonic is neither of those. He's a pubescent character dealing with the world around him in a pubescent way. Not asking for some Tarantinoing, but some cold-talk would be nice that didn't resort to meme spewing nor drama bombs. Addressing something as direct as his own looks would be nice and would fit to his character.

[davethesodaguy]

I'm gonna be honest with you and the people of this forum.

As much as I said I don't care about story in Sonic games, of course I do.

But I do care about a story that doesn't take itself seriously and there's plenty of room for that in the Sonic series, I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible.

Look at the Ratchet and Clank and Jak and Daxter series.

They're gaming series with kind of complex but funny stories that don't take themselves seriously and they rule. Why not do the same with Sonic.

Sure all the other aspects of the game would have to be worked out as well (including the character design which in my opinion needs to go back to the simpler stuff from Lost World, plus I sincerely couldn't care less about Lost World's story, I jumped through every single cutscene on that game.)

But anyways, here are my thoughts on it. I know I said before that noone should care about Story in a Sonic game, but sure, in my opinion a story that would fit the character is a story that would actually be funny and witty, just like the stuff we see in the Sonic Boom show....

If they hire the Boom writers to write the next game, I'd be happy.

I mean, I remember playing Sonic And Knuckles and being eager to find out what was going to happen at the end of it, so yeah, the genesis games may have simple stories but you can still tell they're trying to tell you something, just like every video game is.

 

Plus, you can be mature and funny at the same time, you can be mature without being dark, you can be mature and be cartoony.

 

Like pixar's leader once said, you shouldn't underestimate a child's intelligence. That's why Pixar movies are appealing to both kids and adults, because they know how to mix things up