Is there any merit to a "mature" Sonic story?

[Nepenthe]

I played the first Ratchet and Clank game many years ago and there were instances of conflict where Ratchet was feeling betrayed by Clank that were meant to be taken at face value. I've further read there's drama with other lombaxes existing in other games that is also meant to be taken at face value. And this is in a series that utilizes comedy. There are points in these games that are supposed to be "taken seriously." How else is investment in any outcome of conflict going to be attained otherwise?

Really, all people want is for the series to have a wider spectrum of tones, like a Disney film. Can we at least have Disney film writing? Please?

[davethesodaguy]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

I played the first Ratchet and Clank game many years ago and there were instances of conflict where Ratchet was feeling betrayed by Clank that were meant to be taken at face value. I've further read there's drama with other lombaxes existing in other games that is also meant to be taken at face value. And this is in a series that utilizes comedy. There are points in these games that are supposed to be "taken seriously." How else is investment in any outcome of conflict going to be attained otherwise.

Really, all people want is for the series to have a wider spectrum of tones, like a Disney film. Can we at least have Disney film writing? Please?

you got my point entirely

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, davethesodaguy said:

I'm gonna be honest with you and the people of this forum.

As much as I said I don't care about story in Sonic games, of course I do.

But I do care about a story that doesn't take itself seriously and there's plenty of room for that in the Sonic series, I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible.

Look at the Ratchet and Clank and Jak and Daxter series.

They're gaming series with kind of complex but funny stories that don't take themselves seriously and they rule. Why not do the same with Sonic.

Sure all the other aspects of the game would have to be worked out as well (including the design which in my opinion needs to go back to the simpler stuff from Lost World, plus I sincerely couldn't care less about Lost World's story, I jumped through every single cutscene on that game.)

But anyways, here are my thoughts on it. I know I said before that noone should care about Story in a Sonic game, but sure, in my opinion a story that would fit the character is a story that would actually be funny and witty, just like the stuff we see in the Sonic Boom show....

If they hire the Boom writers to write the next game, I'd be happy.

I mean, I remember playing Sonic And Knuckles and being eager to find out what was going to happen at the end of it, so yeah, the genesis games may have simple stories but you can still tell they're trying to tell you something, just like every video game is.

 

Sonic Boom has similar aspects to the current games, albeit its much more tolerable. The main thing, there's no sense of scale, urgency, or purpose. But that works for Sonic Boom because of its more constrained and sitcom like setting. Its pretty much "Friends" but with Sonic characters.

 

That is not a direction I don't really feel is appropriate for the main series, if only because it invalidates Boom's entire existence if its going to be a carbon copy (which it arguably is at this point...) and secondly, the entire premise of the series is built upon what's essentially an Action-Adventure genre, so I kind of expect something along those lines rather than this lackadaisical, nobody cares about anything feeling that's been going on ever since Sonic Colors. :\

And you do realize, Ratchet & Clank and Jak & Daxter actually do get more dramatic and plot driven in their later games right? It doesn't come at the expense of its humor, but the issues that are presented in those games are pretty clearly meant to be taken seriously by the narrative and characters. Soooooo...yea?

[FriendBot]

The main series should still have a light hearted aspect to it but when shit goes down, it goes down hard.

I love Boom for what it is but I don't think the main series should follow the same way (even though it kind of already is at this point though Lost World was a step in the right direction atleast).

Just keep the main series in a balanced tone, when things are pretty silly, let it be silly but don't forget that the life of Sonic the Hedgehog isn't all sunshine and rainbows, bad times will be made.

[Singapore Sling]

On 1/3/2016 at 10:50 AM, JohnTheDreamer said:

I, personally, see a great deal of potential in the exploration of adult-level theming with this plethora of characters.

What does "adult-level theming" mean in this context?

[davethesodaguy]

6 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

And you do realize, Ratchet & Clank and Jak & Daxter actually do get more dramatic and plot driven in their later games right? It doesn't come at the expense of its humor, but the issues that are presented in those games are pretty clearly meant to be taken seriously by the narrative and characters. Soooooo...yea?

Exactly, I wouldn't mind if they did that, I mean, look at Sonic 1, 2, 3 and knuckles it's like all part of a series of games that grows more and more intense as you progress. I always imagined it like a star wars trilogy (series, sorry) of sorts where alliances are made and broken all the time, In fact I always dreamed of seeing an animation made specifically based on it (with more characters perhaps like the freedom fighters or something)

It would be a great adventure with cartoony characters that spew silly jokes all the time... I'd buy that...

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, davethesodaguy said:

Exactly, I wouldn't mind if they did that, I mean, look at Sonic 1, 2, 3 and knuckles it's like all part of a series of games that grows more and more intense as you progress. I always imagined it like a star wars trilogy (series, sorry) of sorts where alliances are made and broken all the time, In fact I always dreamed of seeing an animation made specifically based on it (with more characters perhaps like the freedom fighters or something)

It would be a great adventure with cartoony characters that spew silly jokes all the time... I'd buy that...

Well, yea I agree with that. But this isn't something exclusive to just the classic games lol. The series has a myriad of examples of what you're describing. Its like, there are only two games I can think of that were deadly serious for the most part and you probably know the ones I'm talking about. The terrible twosome :V

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I just would like to have a Sonic game (and movie) as "mature" as the Kung Fu Panda movies. I think Archie Sonic has a rather good balance.

[Jhreamer]

1 hour ago, davethesodaguy said:

I'm gonna be honest with you and the people of this forum.

...

Like pixar's leader once said, you shouldn't underestimate a child's intelligence. That's why Pixar movies are appealing to both kids and adults, because they know how to mix things up

I had a feeling you just came off the wrong way in your other topic. This is a great post.

And a lovely point with the Pixar quote. I've actually just realized that I've been moving toward somewhat abandoning the child demographic, and that's completely absurd. Even if a story is targeting teens, providing it as material accessible to children can actually do wonders for any story. This is what I believe was the case for The Legend of Korra, and I consider it to be the ultimate all-ages bridge.

1 hour ago, Singapore Sling said:

What does "adult-level theming" mean in this context?

Just highly challenging and thought-provoking themes. Things that have many facets of complexity, so that almost no one person might see it the same way.

[Singapore Sling]

3 hours ago, JohnTheDreamer said:

Just highly challenging and thought-provoking themes. Things that have many facets of complexity, so that almost no one person might see it the same way.

Mm. That's the rub.

Here's the thing. If I may propose a counterargument? It's an argument I've made before, many times, because this comes up in every discussion about kid's franchises by the adults who love them. And I think it's an important argument to make. 

Is there anything actually adult about insisting on adult level themes, but also making a point for it to remain in the boundaries of children's censorship? When I want adult writing for adult consumption, I watch or read works intended for adults. I don't sit and look at my childhood loves and wish they'd expand and grow in their scope. Why would someone hunger for Sonic to play up an adult complexity to its animal-versus-man liberation themes when you could just read Animal Farm?

It's the difference between Caprica and Beast Machines, a comparison I enjoy using for this sort of thing. Both shows addressing similar themes, but clearly written for different audiences. Beast Machines introduces you to those concepts. Caprica explores those concepts under the pretense that you have, at the very least, an understanding of the existence of those concepts and the implications of those concepts in the post-9/11 world it's written in. I enjoy both shows greatly and don't really feel a need to pick a favorite...but if you asked me, "Hey, I'm an adult man/woman, what show would you recommend I watch if I want to watch a science-fiction show exploring the repercussions of reincarnation amidst a theological feud." well, dude, I'm sorry, but I ain't recommending you Beast Machines.

I also hate to break it to you, and I mean no real disrespect, but if Legend of Korra is thought-provoking to you, I have to broach the question of what sort of frame of reference do you HAVE for thought provoking? Legend of Korra, I'll agree, is a very well done show that I greatly enjoy, but it has INCREDIBLY simple themes (balance is good, fascism in any facet is bad, rising against adversity is challenging but ultimately rewarding, a woman's coming of age, etc.). It has some really fun, distinct villains, but their various fascist and anarchist philosophies are INTRODUCTORY, AT BEST in comparison to the full breadth of their equivalent belief systems. Legend of Korra isn't an adult examination of its various social, political, and theological ideas: it is a basic overview of those ideas, largely presented at their surface, as the icing on the cake that's a fun adventure story made for eight year olds. Introducing ideas to them in a context they can understand.

The idea of being an adult man demanding maturity in a context specifically censored for children is odd to me. I would think that even Ben Hurst, may he rest in peace, and his writing staff would figure SatAM was just a logical first step in people being introduced to George Orwell and his ilk. I don't think ANYONE working on SatAM would think it was a REPLACEMENT for Orwell, or an equal facsimile. Yet the idea of a Sonic fan not moving onto Animal Farm, instead fixating on his childhood love to rise to that Animal Farm level (but not be harsh, of course). Asking your child franchise to present interesting ideas to your adult self, rather than just seeking out things with those interesting ideas, is not an adult's instinct. Adding to the fact that you call Legend of Korra and Archie Sonic, of all things, "thought-provoking" when they're introductory, surface level presentations of their ideas makes the urge even more suspect.

And for the record, I adore Sonic. But I get the impression I love it for different reasons than you do.

[Jhreamer]

21 minutes ago, Singapore Sling said:

Mm. That's the rub.

Here's the thing. If I may propose a counterargument? It's an argument I've made before, many times, because this comes up in every discussion about kid's franchises by the adults who love them. And I think it's an important argument to make. 

Is there anything actually adult about insisting on adult level themes, but also making a point for it to remain in the boundaries of children's censorship? When I want adult writing for adult consumption, I watch or read works intended for adults. I don't sit and look at my childhood loves and wish they'd expand and grow in their scope. Why would someone hunger for Sonic to play up an adult complexity to its animal-versus-man liberation themes when you could just read Animal Farm?

It's the difference between Caprica and Beast Machines, a comparison I enjoy using for this sort of thing. Both shows addressing similar themes, but clearly written for different audiences. Beast Machines introduces you to those concepts. Caprica explores those concepts under the pretense that you have, at the very least, an understanding of the existence of those concepts and the implications of those concepts in the post-9/11 world it's written in. I enjoy both shows greatly and don't really feel a need to pick a favorite...but if you asked me, "Hey, I'm an adult man/woman, what show would you recommend I watch if I want to watch a science-fiction show exploring the repercussions of reincarnation amidst a theological feud." well, dude, I'm sorry, but I ain't recommending you Beast Machines.

I also hate to break it to you, and I mean no real disrespect, but if Legend of Korra is thought-provoking to you, I have to broach the question of what sort of frame of reference do you HAVE for thought provoking? Legend of Korra, I'll agree, is a very well done show that I greatly enjoy, but it has INCREDIBLY simple themes (balance is good, fascism in any facet is bad, rising against adversity is challenging but ultimately rewarding, a woman's coming of age, etc.). It has some really fun, distinct villains, but their various fascist and anarchist philosophies are INTRODUCTORY, AT BEST in comparison to the full breadth of their equivalent belief systems. Legend of Korra isn't an adult examination of its various social, political, and theological ideas: it is a basic overview of those ideas, largely presented at their surface, as the icing on the cake that's a fun adventure story made for eight year olds. Introducing ideas to them in a context they can understand.

The idea of being an adult man demanding maturity in a context specifically censored for children is odd to me. I would think that even Ben Hurst, may he rest in peace, and his writing staff would figure SatAM was just a logical first step in people being introduced to George Orwell and his ilk. I don't think ANYONE working on SatAM would think it was a REPLACEMENT for Orwell, or an equal facsimile. Yet the idea of a Sonic fan not moving onto Animal Farm, instead fixating on his childhood love to rise to that Animal Farm level (but not be harsh, of course). Asking your child franchise to present interesting ideas to your adult self, rather than just seeking out things with those interesting ideas, is not an adult's instinct. Adding to the fact that you call Legend of Korra and Archie Sonic, of all things, "thought-provoking" when they're introductory, surface level presentations of their ideas makes the urge even more suspect.

And for the record, I adore Sonic. But I get the impression I love it for different reasons than you do.

Wow. Pretty impossible to adequately argue against any of that.

Actually, in my previous post addressing dave, I realized that Korra HAD been presented in a simple way meant to appeal to any age group. Before then, I had been floundering on that thought. But now my image of the complexity of theme, and story itself, is sharper.

I do not intend for Sonic to be anywhere near the vibrato of a story like Time Enough for Love. That'd be weird. This whole time, I've actually been seeking a story done with simple themes in a very deft, robust way -- but still simple. The proficiency with which a story is told changes a lot about how it is digested. Minimalism can be made to feel complex if desired.

These past few days have been monumental in sorting this out in my mind.

So I'm incredibly grateful for that counterargument.

[Singapore Sling]

I see things both ways. I don't feel like something I like that's aimed at children needs to be at a complexity where it can challenge me; I like Sonic for different reasons that don't involve being challenged. 

But as someone who also adores dark (and I mean real dark, not "I watch mostly pop adventure cartoons and this fucks me up" dark), I don't relate to a lot of "I only like comedy and nothing else" cuddlebox types...but they have the more meaningful stake here. I DO tend to prefer a more comedic Sonic overall, even if my favorite era of Sonic is the Adventure-and-adjacent games. 

[Nepenthe]

The thing about all of this is that the "adult" argument is actually irrelevant, or perhaps more accurately preaching to the choir. Because there isn't a large contingent of people asking for Sonic to start exploring adult themes in a way that would exclude his intended audiences, but rather simply be more inclusive to the sensibilities of adults. Granted, I again think all of this talking past people is the result of everyone simply operating on different scales and contexts of "appropriateness", as well as different definitions of what "darkness" even means in terms of working examples, and thus the same scene of violence or death within a Disney movie would have such radically different connotations within a Sonic game that it makes people confused on just what the actual cut-off age for this franchise even is anymore. Basically, what I feel is happening is this:

[PandoloFox]

3 hours ago, Singapore Sling said:

Mm. That's the rub.

Here's the thing. If I may propose a counterargument? It's an argument I've made before, many times, because this comes up in every discussion about kid's franchises by the adults who love them. And I think it's an important argument to make. 

Is there anything actually adult about insisting on adult level themes, but also making a point for it to remain in the boundaries of children's censorship? When I want adult writing for adult consumption, I watch or read works intended for adults. I don't sit and look at my childhood loves and wish they'd expand and grow in their scope. Why would someone hunger for Sonic to play up an adult complexity to its animal-versus-man liberation themes when you could just read Animal Farm?

It's the difference between Caprica and Beast Machines, a comparison I enjoy using for this sort of thing. Both shows addressing similar themes, but clearly written for different audiences. Beast Machines introduces you to those concepts. Caprica explores those concepts under the pretense that you have, at the very least, an understanding of the existence of those concepts and the implications of those concepts in the post-9/11 world it's written in. I enjoy both shows greatly and don't really feel a need to pick a favorite...but if you asked me, "Hey, I'm an adult man/woman, what show would you recommend I watch if I want to watch a science-fiction show exploring the repercussions of reincarnation amidst a theological feud." well, dude, I'm sorry, but I ain't recommending you Beast Machines.

I also hate to break it to you, and I mean no real disrespect, but if Legend of Korra is thought-provoking to you, I have to broach the question of what sort of frame of reference do you HAVE for thought provoking? Legend of Korra, I'll agree, is a very well done show that I greatly enjoy, but it has INCREDIBLY simple themes (balance is good, fascism in any facet is bad, rising against adversity is challenging but ultimately rewarding, a woman's coming of age, etc.). It has some really fun, distinct villains, but their various fascist and anarchist philosophies are INTRODUCTORY, AT BEST in comparison to the full breadth of their equivalent belief systems. Legend of Korra isn't an adult examination of its various social, political, and theological ideas: it is a basic overview of those ideas, largely presented at their surface, as the icing on the cake that's a fun adventure story made for eight year olds. Introducing ideas to them in a context they can understand.

The idea of being an adult man demanding maturity in a context specifically censored for children is odd to me. I would think that even Ben Hurst, may he rest in peace, and his writing staff would figure SatAM was just a logical first step in people being introduced to George Orwell and his ilk. I don't think ANYONE working on SatAM would think it was a REPLACEMENT for Orwell, or an equal facsimile. Yet the idea of a Sonic fan not moving onto Animal Farm, instead fixating on his childhood love to rise to that Animal Farm level (but not be harsh, of course). Asking your child franchise to present interesting ideas to your adult self, rather than just seeking out things with those interesting ideas, is not an adult's instinct. Adding to the fact that you call Legend of Korra and Archie Sonic, of all things, "thought-provoking" when they're introductory, surface level presentations of their ideas makes the urge even more suspect.

And for the record, I adore Sonic. But I get the impression I love it for different reasons than you do.

Well, im not sure anyone is actualy asking for adult themes to begin with. The actual sentence you quoted even stated "more thought provoking themes" and not "adult" per se. I could make the same argument against people saying that something is supposed to be for kids and be more simple, when they themselves are adults enjoing that very media? Why would you not want media for children to be more thought provoking even if you as an adult wont be that impressed by it.? The thing is, I have never even heard anyone mention wanting sonic to be like animal farm before you brought it up. Im not saying that there arnt those kind of people, but from what i have seen, most just wants the complexity to be at the level of old disney movies. I see no reason why children cant learn stuff by watching cartoons, its actualy more beneficial if they do.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Ya know, if we're talking about Disney level of writing and tone, we should keep in mind how incredibly flexible it is in just a single movie, going from as lighthearted as Colors to even darker than SA2. Remember that we had things like electrocution and paramilitary mooks trying to gun down superpowered children and their parents in the Incredibles (which was treated as both tense and shocking to funny and exhilarating), or how incredibly silly Lilo and Stitch got before the next scene shifted to something serious.

So I doubt people with more rigid preferences in writing and tone accepting that would actually be okay with that kinda mood whiplash.

[Singapore Sling]

11 hours ago, PandoloFox said:

Well, im not sure anyone is actualy asking for adult themes to begin with. The actual sentence you quoted even stated "more thought provoking themes" and not "adult" per se. I could make the same argument against people saying that something is supposed to be for kids and be more simple, when they themselves are adults enjoing that very media? Why would you not want media for children to be more thought provoking even if you as an adult wont be that impressed by it.? The thing is, I have never even heard anyone mention wanting sonic to be like animal farm before you brought it up. Im not saying that there arnt those kind of people, but from what i have seen, most just wants the complexity to be at the level of old disney movies. I see no reason why children cant learn stuff by watching cartoons, its actualy more beneficial if they do.

Right, but the issue of "Sonic should be a certain par of quality because we owe it to children" has some flaws. I agree that children should have access to intelligent entertainment, but...it's not like there's any major absence of it. They can get it pretty easily, either with a lot of the current crop of TV or with streaming providing access to a lot of classics. There's not really any epidemic of a lack of intelligence in all ages programming or fiction.

So I've never been convinced by the argument of Sonic owing it to children to be a certain level of quality when it's anywhere for kids to easily find. Sonic being good FOR THE CHILDREN has always seemed like a way to doll up "Sonic should be what I consider good so I personally can still like it." 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

51 minutes ago, Singapore Sling said:

Right, but the issue of "Sonic should be a certain par of quality because we owe it to children" has some flaws. I agree that children should have access to intelligent entertainment, but...it's not like there's any major absence of it. They can get it pretty easily, either with a lot of the current crop of TV or with streaming providing access to a lot of classics. There's not really any epidemic of a lack of intelligence in all ages programming or fiction.

So I've never been convinced by the argument of Sonic owing it to children to be a certain level of quality when it's anywhere for kids to easily find. Sonic being good FOR THE CHILDREN has always seemed like a way to doll up "Sonic should be what I consider good so I personally can still like it." 

You could just as easily use turn that around into how people always claim Sonic is "for kids" to justify abysmal writing, nonexistent plots and terrible humor despite it being capable of better.

[Singapore Sling]

3 hours ago, SenEDtor Missile said:

You could just as easily use turn that around into how people always claim Sonic is "for kids" to justify abysmal writing, nonexistent plots and terrible humor despite it being capable of better.

Sure you could, and they would also be wrong.

There can be more than one wrong argument. 

[PandoloFox]

3 hours ago, Singapore Sling said:

Right, but the issue of "Sonic should be a certain par of quality because we owe it to children" has some flaws. I agree that children should have access to intelligent entertainment, but...it's not like there's any major absence of it. They can get it pretty easily, either with a lot of the current crop of TV or with streaming providing access to a lot of classics. There's not really any epidemic of a lack of intelligence in all ages programming or fiction.

So I've never been convinced by the argument of Sonic owing it to children to be a certain level of quality when it's anywhere for kids to easily find. Sonic being good FOR THE CHILDREN has always seemed like a way to doll up "Sonic should be what I consider good so I personally can still like it." 

Owing it, no. But i see no wrong to ask for it. Partly because it will make the young think a bit, but also because it will make the cartoon a bit more interesting.

[Nepenthe]

This is yet another strawman. The perceived duty to make a work of art that is "intelligent" isn't predicated on a perceived or objective dearth of that kind of media. It is simply a personal goal to strive for. That's why people continue to make good shows for children at all even though you can probably subsist a child on good media that has already been created.

[Singapore Sling]

11 hours ago, PandoloFox said:

Owing it, no. But i see no wrong to ask for it. Partly because it will make the young think a bit, but also because it will make the cartoon a bit more interesting.

But shouldn't we be happy if there IS stupid media and a child is discerning enough to change the channel? I'd argue choice and variety technically present MORE learning opportunity than if everything's perfectly calibrated and of top quality. 

Or at least acknowledge that whether or not a kid's show is smart or stupid probably isn't that drastic an influence? People can have intelligent, thoughtful reasons for why they personally like terrible things and people can appropriate ANY work into something meaningful to them based on their own intelligence.

(I happen to think the Boom cartoon's fairly smart, though. Or at least delightfully cynical.)

[PandoloFox]

3 minutes ago, Singapore Sling said:

But shouldn't we be happy if there IS stupid media and a child is discerning enough to change the channel? I'd argue choice and variety technically present MORE learning opportunity than if everything's perfectly calibrated and of top quality. 

Or at least acknowledge that whether or not a kid's show is smart or stupid probably isn't that drastic an influence? People can have intelligent, thoughtful reasons for why they personally like terrible things and people can appropriate ANY work into something meaningful to them based on their own intelligence.

(I happen to think the Boom cartoon's fairly smart, though. Or at least delightfully cynical.)

Dont know how to respond to that realy, stupid media makes me appreciate the good stuff even more but its not something i would say i desire. And in the end if the writers want to make something "different" they can. There is no straight guide line to quality. But i still dont see this as a good reason to not ask for quality goods or more depth in our stories. Its not like anyone is obligated to follow what we ask for anyway. If they think they have a greater vision then they only need to prove us wrong by making us like it.

Appreciating bad movies for its good qualities is a good thing, but if you are already reasoning on the logic that the media is bad. then maybe it should improve.

[Badnik Mechanic]

21 hours ago, PandoloFox said:

Why would you not want media for children to be more thought provoking even if you as an adult wont be that impressed by it?

You mean like how you want Sonic to have scenes like the flooding of station square and mass death because that somehow prepares kids for real life?

[Singapore Sling]

At the same time, if there's no real straight guideline to quality, then why should we dictate what's good and bad for children? When we want kid's media to be good so we can watch it, we like to talk about how kids are smart and can handle it. But when we think it's bad, we think it needs to be improved for the sake of children (who suddenly aren't smart enough to change the channel)?

[PandoloFox]

4 minutes ago, Hogfather said:

You mean like how you want Sonic to have scenes like the flooding of station square and mass death because that somehow prepares kids for real life?

Are we going back to that kids game discussion we had a long time ago? Cause im pretty sure you still didnt quite catch the context of what i was saying. And im starting to believe that you genuinly think i meant that monsters destroying citys happens in real life.