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Is there any merit to a "mature" Sonic story?


Jhreamer

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24 minutes ago, Singapore Sling said:

(I happen to think the Boom cartoon's fairly smart, though. Or at least delightfully cynical.)

The line in bolded bothers me since is there a way to make comedy not cynical?

Like I know people nowadays don't really care or despise Doug Walker but one of the important things he said is that comedy comes from one's suffering. 

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9 minutes ago, Singapore Sling said:

At the same time, if there's no real straight guideline to quality, then why should we dictate what's good and bad for children? When we want kid's media to be good so we can watch it, we like to talk about how kids are smart and can handle it. But when we think it's bad, we think it needs to be improved for the sake of children (who suddenly aren't smart enough to change the channel)?

What? No, I want it improved so that i can enjoy it as well. I dont speak for children.

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8 minutes ago, JohnTheDreamer said:

When I was a kid, I liked the endgame scenario of Station Square's flooding not because it would prepare me for anything. I liked it because it provided a true sense of urgency and meaning in the final battle. It provided me with a concrete reason to be invested in what I was doing.

Any big final scenario can do that provided that the game has built up to a big climax within the context of the rules, look at something like the South Park game (not gonna spoil it for you), it's just kids playing a game but you feel like it's the most vital thing in the world. Even a game like postal 2, the game builds up suspense and the climax of each stage comically so it feels like the most important thing in the world despite the fact the objective in one mission is 'Get Gary Coleman's automgraph' another is 'pick up your laundry' and one of the most tense moments of the game is 'buy some milk'.

The issue here is that some people believe that Sonic needs to have these near earth/city destroying moments because it somehow teaches kids to prepare for life. Yes that was the actual quote.

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6 minutes ago, Hogfather said:

Any big final scenario can do that provided that the game has built up to a big climax within the context of the rules, look at something like the South Park game (not gonna spoil it for you), it's just kids playing a game but you feel like it's the most vital thing in the world. Even a game like postal 2, the game builds up suspense and the climax of each stage comically so it feels like the most important thing in the world despite the fact the objective in one mission is 'Get Gary Coleman's automgraph' another is 'pick up your laundry' and one of the most tense moments of the game is 'buy some milk'.

The issue here is that some people believe that Sonic needs to have these near earth/city destroying moments because it somehow teaches kids to prepare for life. Yes that was the actual quote.

Sigh, prepare for life as in understanding that not everything will be sunshine and rainbows, there will be tough times and if you find yourself in a crisis you will need to act. Its more about being able to relate to the emotions and danger, not what is actualy happening on screen. You take me to litteraly.

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13 minutes ago, PandoloFox said:

Sigh, prepare for life as in understanding that not everything will be sunshine and rainbows, there will be tough times and if you find yourself in a crisis you will need to act. Its more about being able to relate to the emotions and danger, not what is actualy happening on screen. You take me to litteraly.

Any game which has a final boss does this. You have to act or else you can't beat the game, or if you mean the character in question, duh it's basic narrative structure, there has been a disruption to the narrative, the climax is the resolution of the narrative, the character has to act or else they can't resolve the disruption. Show me one Sonic game which has a final boss structure that doesn't do this, heck even Sonic Runner's episodic narrative does this and forces the player to do this. 

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3 minutes ago, Hogfather said:

Any game which has a final boss does this. You have to act or else you can't beat the game, or if you mean the character in question, duh it's basic narrative structure, there has been a disruption to the narrative, the climax is the resolution of the narrative, the character has to act or else they can't resolve the disruption. Show me one Sonic game which has a final boss structure that doesn't do this, heck even Sonic Runner's episodic narrative does this and forces the player to do this. 

Are you explaining my own sentence?....Do you even remember the full context of our previous discussion? I think im quitting this now.

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52 minutes ago, Hogfather said:

Any game which has a final boss does this. You have to act or else you can't beat the game, or if you mean the character in question, duh it's basic narrative structure, there has been a disruption to the narrative, the climax is the resolution of the narrative, the character has to act or else they can't resolve the disruption. Show me one Sonic game which has a final boss structure that doesn't do this, heck even Sonic Runner's episodic narrative does this and forces the player to do this. 

I think you have to think about Sonic as a piece of art if you want to understand what both Pandolo and John thinks about this issue. This issue is larger than just mechanics.

Not to be harsh here, but wasn't Sonic supposed to be about nature vs. technology through the eyes of a teenager? And doesn't teenagers usually have millions of hormones in their bodies that alter their sense of reality and amplifying their emotions? Shouldn't Sonic address that kind of worldview? As Taylor Swift once said "...we're young and we're reckless. We takes this way too far...", this couldn't be more right on time. That's why I'm not bothered as much by his boastfulness as I am with his current lack of emergency. 

Is this a matter of maturity? Hell no. It's about being appropriate and that's what matters.

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3 minutes ago, AMC/H&M said:

Not to be harsh here, but wasn't Sonic supposed to be about nature vs. technology through the eyes of a teenager?

Nope.

Never been a proven thing as far as I'm aware.

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37 minutes ago, AMC/H&M said:

I think you have to think about Sonic as a piece of art if you want to understand what both Pandolo and John thinks about this issue. This issue is larger than just mechanics.

 

Ah, No. What I and hogfather discussed has no relevance to this topic. He brought up a past argument, I shouldnt have indulged in it. Sorry for the confusion.

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5 hours ago, Soni said:

The line in bolded bothers me since is there a way to make comedy not cynical?

Like I know people nowadays don't really care or despise Doug Walker but one of the important things he said is that comedy comes from one's suffering. 

Which he cribs from people who're far more intelligent than him, yes. Comedy is born from tragedy, the saddest people tend to be the funniest, etc.

You can have non-cynical comedy. The best recent example is Pete Holmes's stand up, which is filled to the brim with positivity and infectious enthusiasm. It's not exactly a weird venue for comedy to take. Countless stand up comedians aren't especially cynical. 

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What? No, I want it improved so that i can enjoy it as well. I dont speak for children.

Which just rounds back to my other point: it's fine to not like something, or think something's bad...but wanting something to improve specifically so you can like it more just strikes me as silly when you can always find something else. I love Sonic. There're entire pieces of the franchise I haven't indulged because I realized they weren't for me and left it at that.

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1 hour ago, Singapore Sling said:

 

Which just rounds back to my other point: it's fine to not like something, or think something's bad...but wanting something to improve specifically so you can like it more just strikes me as silly when you can always find something else. I love Sonic. There're entire pieces of the franchise I haven't indulged because I realized they weren't for me and left it at that.

Its not like i want to change sonic to something he never was, i want the franchise to improve on things it already did. And you started this conversation by talking about people who wanted sonic to be like animal farm when mostly people only wanted the writing to improve to something on disney standards.

I dont see the problem with wanting improvements and providing criticism, and what motivation for wanting it to be better shouldnt matter. What matters is if others agree with what you want improved. Supply and demand after all.

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1 hour ago, Singapore Sling said:

Which just rounds back to my other point: it's fine to not like something, or think something's bad...but wanting something to improve specifically so you can like it more just strikes me as silly when you can always find something else.

That's not silly, that's someone actually giving something they don't like a second chance to like it. And quite frankly, it's an attitude I think many people should have because people are all to quick to dismiss something and never let it try again and prove them wrong.

And funny enough, this is how the franchise's games actually managed to get back on their feet for a while after 06-Unleashed. So that seems rather ridiculous to say wanting something to improve to like it more is silly, because why else would someone want something to improve if they didn't see any merit to liking it? If I thought something was bad, but there was something worthwhile in it, I damn sure would want to see it improved to change my mind on it.

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Not to mention the fact that since the Sonic franchise has gone through so many (too many, arguably) tonal shifts since its inception, I don't really see why it would be weird to want something out of the franchise that was never integral to it in the first place. Let me remind you that before the game Shadow the Hedgehog existed, there were tons of ten and twelve year olds that thought Sonic would be way cooler if he used guns and swore. The Sonic franchise was never about guns or swearing; the entire concept was and still is completely out of left field and something the series should have never tried to tackle in the first place. However, that outcry got the game made. Yes, a certain group of people really did want a game like Shadow the Hedgehog to be released. I bet a bunch of COD kids nowadays, if they haven't already jumped on the "SONIC SUX" bandwagon yet, would probably love Shadow the Hedgehog for its sophomoric way of handling mature themes. The same thing basically happened again with Colors and Generations after so much of the Internet and game critics complained about the franchise's desire to try to tell complex narratives, and should stick with the basic "Eggman's a jerk, go stop him" plotline of Sonic 1, and maybe Sonic 2 and CD, which, while not exactly what the franchise is now, basically boiled down to opting to make Sonic and Tails more of a 2010s buddy comedy duo to remove any feeling of possible complexity or tension. And much to some of our chagrin, this style has been touted as the way Sonic should be done by much of the Internet.

Therefore, as twisted of an argument as it sounds, it wouldn't be too out there for Sonic to do another tonal shift to try to tell a natural extension of what SA1 and 2 were trying to achieve, but more refined. A Disney film approach isn't exactly so imaginably out there for Sonic that it couldn't be done well. Heck, if for one game, SEGA did want to use the Sonic characters to go as deep into human psychology as Animal Farm, it'd be really freaking weird, and I can bet a lot of people wouldn't like it, but there probably would be a new faction of the fanbase to tout that as the perfect Sonic story. I wouldn't count myself among them, but hey, it's a thing.

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Truly incredible arguments so far.

There's a subject I'd like to broach now. I know it's probably going to be explosive and controversial. I've been leery about bringing it up, but I think it's time. This is something I don't necessarily want to discuss in regards to the story of a Sonic game; just ANY Sonic story in general; existing or hypothetical.

Romance.

People really seem to despise it any time a romantic flair is teased in a Sonic world. It is one of the most common, and strongest, avenues in a story. But is it simply off-limits for Sonic? Does it just not work with these characters?

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3 hours ago, JohnTheDreamer said:

Truly incredible arguments so far.

There's a subject I'd like to broach now. I know it's probably going to be explosive and controversial. I've been leery about bringing it up, but I think it's time. This is something I don't necessarily want to discuss in regards to the story of a Sonic game; just ANY Sonic story in general; existing or hypothetical.

Romance.

People really seem to despise it any time a romantic flair is teased in a Sonic world. It is one of the most common, and strongest, avenues in a story. But is it simply off-limits for Sonic? Does it just not work with these characters?

Well, I personally don't view the majority of the cast romantically inclined. Certainly not characters like Sonic himself. Even Amy, her case is more of a childish crush than it is genuine romantic interest.

I think aside from that, I just personally hold a lot of distaste for romance in the context of Sonic, and shipping as a whole. It seems to me, whenever I deal with shippers, is that they're more fixated with the shipping than it is for the characters themselves. Even when the ship itself makes absolutely no sense, like Sonadow. Sonic and Shadow have zero chemistry, especially in the context to develop a romantic interest. It always kind of strikes me as funny that even the most capable writers have to contrive the most ridiculous of scenarios just to get them together. That's to say nothing for Sontails. God I hate that pairing.

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4 hours ago, JohnTheDreamer said:

Truly incredible arguments so far.

There's a subject I'd like to broach now. I know it's probably going to be explosive and controversial. I've been leery about bringing it up, but I think it's time. This is something I don't necessarily want to discuss in regards to the story of a Sonic game; just ANY Sonic story in general; existing or hypothetical.

Romance.

People really seem to despise it any time a romantic flair is teased in a Sonic world. It is one of the most common, and strongest, avenues in a story. But is it simply off-limits for Sonic? Does it just not work with these characters?

There's nothing wrong with it being there on paper, I don't think. If it feels natural and you don't waste too much time on it, it should be fine. It's just something that's really easy to do badly in an action series like this, so I wouldn't even go down that road unless you're certain you can make it work and you can make sure it's not in the way.  

It also wouldn't add a whole lot for me personally, so I'm kind of indifferent on it. 

 

 

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Count me in "no romance" bandwagon.

Sonic as a series always had that youthful energy to it and Sonic is a free spirit, a Knight of the Wind if you will. While I'm curious to see how romance would fit in the series but it doesn't bode well with Sonic that well when I think about it. 

I just don't think romance is a necessity for Sonic, that's pretty much it.

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5 hours ago, JohnTheDreamer said:

People really seem to despise it any time a romantic flair is teased in a Sonic world. It is one of the most common, and strongest, avenues in a story. But is it simply off-limits for Sonic? Does it just not work with these characters?

Its not that romance is despised in the Sonic universe, its the way that it is handled. The best example that I can bring is that pre reboot archie comics had more ships then the navy. We dont mind the ships but we hated how couples seem to get in the way of the characters development and the story, on top of making characters OOC. For example Sonally: Sally was reduced to being Sonics perfect girlfriend and Sonic was stripped over everything he stands for because of a paring. It gets worse in 25-35YL when he becomes.... dun dun dun.... THE KING!

It gets also worse then other characters start acting OOC to "support" the paring or speak of the paring through breaking the 4th wall. Again, Sonally and a issue where Amy comes in and tells everyone "Sonic will be mind one day, but for now, I want him to be happy, and Sally is what makes him happy". Many people would say that Amy was being "mature" but bascially she was being OOC. She went out of her way to be OOC so that the Sonally castle could have more cement. If she was really "mature", she wouldnt have said "Sonic will be mine one day" because it still implies that shes still gonna go after Sonic, despite him being with Sally.

There was also a issue where Cream says to Amy in Treasure Team Tango "Isnt he (Sonic) dating princess Sally now?".  My question is, how the hell does Cream know? Didnt at one point in time that the other characters had to TELL her that Knothole was being destroyed? Also, I dont recall her ever meeting Sally at the time so I have no idea how she knew Sonic was dating her other then to shove Sonally in our faces. 

There was also a time where fans can submit fan art to the comics and there was one where it was bascially pro-Sonally and putting Amy in a box and protraying her like a psycpath. art is fine but you have sonamy and amy fans reading the comics, so if your favoritism for a ship is so strong that you are willing to offend some of your readers... then.... yeah.

And its not just with Sonally. Its other shippings to. How the hell did Tails end up with Mina? And dont get me started on the fucking soul touch with Knuxsue. And also portraying Sally as a love them and leave them type of woman. So all and all. I have NO problems with romance if it is done right. I dont want characters acting OOC to move the ship foward. Characters in the relationship shouldnt be acting OOC just to stay and if the characters arent compatiable, then sorry but they shouldnt be in a relationship.

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I don't really have anything against the subject of romance being incorporated into a game because as far as I'm concerned, it's no lesser an avenue to explore character interactions than something like friendship.

It's the execution that is the point of contention. Not the concept.

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I struggle to see how romance would fit into the mainline Sonic games.  To handle romance you generally need dialogue and intimacy, and in an action platformer of the Sonic format then extended dialogue sequences don't really work, and intimacy can't be snatched for very long from the kind of adrenaline-fuelled narratives that best suit an action platformer.  It'd be a different matter for other media like the comics or TV shows, or spin-off games with different genres that can be tailored to different narrative styles - but in mainline Sonic I think it's hard to find a proper space for romance outside of flirting and brief hints of affection.  Unsurprisingly, this is exactly how the mainline series has incorporated romance so far.

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As long as the romance is executed similar to how Sonic Boom does it with Sonic and Amy, that's fine. I don't want shitty Sonic and Elise or Sonic and Sally sort of stuff. Hell I still don't understand what Sonic sees in Elise! She's not funny nor adventurous and, to quote the Great Clement,

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Who even knows if she likes chilli dogs!

For the topic at hand, a "mature" story that works well with Sonic would be something in tone of SA1 and 2. It's after these games that Sonic suddenly became tonally inconsistent; first it's a really good action/adventure story, then it becomes darker but still well executed, then Sonic Team does a 180 and makes it a lighthearted fare, OW THE EDGE straight after that and finally the complete and utter shite story that is Sonic 06. Sonic Unleashed went back to the Adventure style plot but that didn't last long because now we're at lighthearted fayre again. Urgh...

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Well, I did have a good post, which I did submit, but the forum just ate it. Yeah, thanks for that IPS, you utter piece of-

 

I agree with Gabz; subtlety is the way to go. Give just enough to hint there's something going on, like they do in Boom.

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