Should Sonic join Mina's band in Archie?

[Miko]

While saying that you are a friend can mean nothing, it also very well can mean something, which is the much more likely of the two. Sally was not looking to lie or manipulate when she said she valued Sonic as a friend.

You're taking things at such face value here. Just because a person can says something doesn't mean it's true. And just because a person says something that isn't true doesn't mean they're intending to lie. It means in such cases they're misinterpreting what their feelings mean. Sally adores Sonic the way a fan would an icon and mistakes these feelings as feelings of friendship, kinship or love.

When you add that into the time she takes out of her day to nag, the fact that she often seeks emotional refuge in Sonic (issue 187 again) and holds Sonic accountable for whatever actions he undertakes, this all points to a very strong mutual give and take relationship. Regardless if the love she is feeling is real or not.

Sally seeks emotional refuge in Sonic but he's not valuable in his capacity to do this. For one thing she has other friends that can easily replace him in this regard which makes him as a refuge something that is easily replaceable.

Not in that sense, but it debunks the logic that a persons character traits have to be present to impact another party. If Sonic can affect the life of the reader from afar, than he can also change the circumstances of the people around him from afar as well.

That's not the same thing as friendship. I never meant to infer Sonic had to mean absolutely nothing to them, but they're not really friends or a surrogate family members. Yeah you can affect the lives of readers from afar, but that doesn't make you friends or family with all of them for that matter.

Many of the FFs have made it very clear that they fight for their friends and family. They are compelled to press on by the images of what they wish to protect. Sonic, being a friend plays a part in this; even after everyone believed he was gone.

There's no basis for him to have a relationship that's akin to genuine friendship.

Sonic still directed his ire to Patch (whom he believed was Twan) and wasted no time cracking a remark toward the Coyote as soon as he was back from space. That sequence tells us that Sonic still probably kept his attention on Patch while he was still around.

Patch was the kind of person who would lash out at Bunnie for example if she said anything to annoy him. When Patch was fed up with Sonic he would fight. His personality WASN'T Ant's. To infer someone totally different can just pick up the mantle and absorb Sonic's taunts whether they like it or not or whether or not they'll lash out suggests Antoine lacks value. It's unlikely that just because Sonic got away with a few cracks that he could pester "Patch" in that sort of manner. "Patch" seemed the kind of character Sonic generally kept a great of distance from until "Antoine" came back.

That someone else was (by a technicality Sonic admitted to in Hedgehog Havoc) was himself. By letting Twan take down Anti-Sonic, Sonic was disrespecting himself. There is no way that Sonic would go as to do something that drastic unless he was truly committed to helping his friend.

1. Sonic would do that for any of his admirers who really needed it.

2. You haven't established the basis for Sonic's friendship with Antoine, so at best this is a plothole because even if it were demonstrating Sonic cares for Antoine more than his admirers or as just a simple co-worker, Sonic hasn't established the means to act out in that kind of way.

As for keeping the empire in check, he obviously does not. I don

Edited August 5, 2009 by Miko

[Blazey Firekitty]

You're taking things at such face value here. Just because a person can says something doesn't mean it's true. And just because a person says something that isn't true doesn't mean they're intending to lie. It means in such cases they're misinterpreting what their feelings mean. Sally adores Sonic the way a fan would an icon and mistakes these feelings as feelings of friendship, kinship or love.

That...doesn't sound like Sally to me, to be honest. I can't think of anytime Sally did anything in regard to Sonic that I would classify as hero worship. That kind of admiration seems more like the domain of Tails and Amy.

[Sega DogTagz]

You're taking things at such face value here. Just because a person can says something doesn't mean it's true. And just because a person says something that isn't true doesn't mean they're intending to lie. It means in such cases they're misinterpreting what their feelings mean. Sally adores Sonic the way a fan would an icon and mistakes these feelings as feelings of friendship, kinship or love.

There is nothing wrong with taking this at face value. During that quote Sally clearly separated her notions of a valued friendship from her convoluted delusions. There was no misinterpretation on Sallys part because she specifically set her feelings aside to make that claim.

Sally seeks emotional refuge in Sonic but he's not valuable in his capacity to do this. For one thing she has other friends that can easily replace him in this regard which makes him as a refuge something that is easily replaceable.

My dog is replaceable with another one of the exact same breed. It doesn

[Miko]

It's not about what she did, it's about what she feels, what substance is behind their relationship. Sally may not act like the stereotypical fangirl in her behavior but that doesn't change the substance behind her relationship.

[Blazey Firekitty]

It's not about what she did, it's about what she feels, what substance is behind their relationship. Sally may not act like the stereotypical fangirl in her behavior but that doesn't change the substance behind her relationship.

I'm...not seeing the fangirl thing. That would seem to imply that Sally obsesses over Sonic to the detriment of her own personal goals. The only time I can remember that happening is when she slapped Sonic in the face, and she doesn't have that personality anymore.

[Flyboy Fox]

Lol, Sally as a fangirl. I always saw her as exactly the opposite... She tried to change Sonic, to make him into what she wanted him to be. Being a fangirl would imply unconditional and irrational acceptance and love completely overlooking and disregarding flaws. Sally was never like that. She's always been very vocal about Sonic's flaws (often without admitting or realizing her own).

[Blazey Firekitty]

Lol, Sally as a fangirl. I always saw her as exactly the opposite... She tried to change Sonic, to make him into what she wanted him to be. Being a fangirl would imply unconditional and irrational acceptance and love completely overlooking and disregarding flaws. Sally was never like that. She's always been very vocal about Sonic's flaws (often without admitting or realizing her own).

I always thought the Sonic/Sally relationship was a lot like the Link/Zelda relationship in the DIC Zelda cartoon...In other words, the more logic oriented princess and her more emotionally minded warrior companion are constantly at odds with each other due to their conflicting natures. The fun comes in trying to see how they rise above their differences.

[Flyboy Fox]

Well excuuuuuse me, Princess!

Heh, I can see the parallel XD

[Blazey Firekitty]

Well excuuuuuse me, Princess!

Heh, I can see the parallel XD

Come to think of it, Tails and Spryte share the same role, too.

You know, the hero's flying sidekick who's infatuated with him, but whom he keeps ignoring.

[Miko]

Being a fangirl would imply unconditional and irrational acceptance and love completely overlooking and disregarding flaws. Sally was never like that.

No, that's your stereotypical idea of a fangirl. Even Amy, Sonic's biggest fan acknowledges when Sonic's acting out of line and will for example tell him to stop joking at her expense. Sally admires Sonic. As long as she doesn't change WHAT she admires about Sonic and why, she can in her mind feel free to change everything else and still like him. One of the biggest reasons you won't see Sally busting lose as a typical fangirl is her background. This is a character whose had to try to hold things together under the most brutal circumstances. Surely she's going to be able to control her feelings to a much better to degree than most girls. Still you haven't read a whole lot of annoying cinderella esque girl oriented stories if you think groupie girls don't dream of changing guys. How many asshole rockers, princes and celebrities are written to meet some chick and be completely changed? How many girls write their Mary Sue into an already established story and change the characterization of the guy they idolize almost instantly? Many women like to get a power thrill "changing" guys under the pretense it's for their own good, just like how many guys may get a thrill seducing women/fiddling with their emotions. Still, I've also yet to meet one girl whose actually tried this and wound up happy because of it.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Miko

[Blazey Firekitty]

I don't feel like Sally is the sort of person who would want Sonic to change his entire personality for her. At least when she's not in the post slap persona that Karl Bollers wrote her in during the very last stories he wrote for Archie. I always got the impression that Sally was usually the type to love Sonic in spite of his flaws, rather than wanting to seduce him into getting rid of them altogether. I can see the type of girl you're describing in the Vampire Fangs Slapping Sal from the Home arc, the one who just wanted Sonic to sit around the palace even though it meant putting everyone else in danger, but I can't think of any other time Sally was like that other than in those late Bollers stories.

[Miko]

I don't feel like Sally is the sort of person who would want Sonic to change his entire personality for her.

1. My main point though was that fangirls can and do try changing guys they admire. Their ambitions to do this don't suddenly make them not fangirls. So, hypothetically even if Sally is the sort of person to do such a thing she's not off the hook.

2. People who try changing tend to go in 2 directions. Changing everything BUT what they like, or making the even bigger mistake of changing what they like about the person because they can't admit to that person they admire it. For example, Sally admires Sonic's "devil may care" attitude but she'd sooner nag him for it and if he ever changes, she'd no longer be interested.

[Blazey Firekitty]

People who try changing tend to go in 2 directions. Changing everything BUT what they like, or making the even bigger mistake of changing what they like about the person because they can't admit to that person they admire it. For example, Sally admires Sonic's "devil may care" attitude but she'd sooner nag him for it and if he ever changes, she'd no longer be interested.

So...Sally is a masochist who tells Sonic to stop being the way he is, when she's actually happy with the way he is?

In my eyes at least, Sonic's attitude is something that annoyed Sally at first, but that she's grown to accept after getting to know him better.

[Flyboy Fox]

I simply see Sally as someone who is a good enough friend to both love him as he is, but also unafraid to nag him about his flaws. It's clear he annoys her in some ways, but that's often what people who are close do. I can't see how she only views him as an 'icon of freedom' when in fact she's shown many times that she'd like him to stay put rather than running around all the time. Perhaps the ultimate proof of that is the XYL arcs. He's a King, settled down, with kids. I'd say Sally changed him, at least in some ways. It's only a possible/alternate future, but it makes a point.

[Miko]

In my eyes at least, Sonic's attitude is something that annoyed Sally at first, but that she's grown to accept after getting to know him better.

Why'd you say she didn't then? O.o

I simply see Sally as someone who is a good enough friend to both love him as he is, but also unafraid to nag him about his flaws. It's clear he annoys her in some ways, but that's often what people who are close do.

Let's be real. We don't love everything about a person or at least we are rather apathetic towards someone. There are generally aspects about a person that draw us to them. For Sally what she adores about Sonic is the very same thing she nags him about. Even if she wasn't like that, it doesn't change that she just idolizes Sonic. Maybe she can appreciate who he is, but it's still the same thing no matter how maturely she expresses these feelings.

I can't see how she only views him as an 'icon of freedom' when in fact she's shown many times that she'd like him to stay put rather than running around all the time.

Again how many women enjoy changing an aspect of a guy that they actually admire.

Perhaps the ultimate proof of that is the XYL arcs. He's a King, settled down, with kids. I'd say Sally changed him, at least in some ways.

I really can't stand her. She's the kind of character that teaches women to be bubble headed and retarded. I'm sorry but it just ticks me the hell off and I wish I could slap the crap out of this character. Acting as if the world owes her something or that it's okay to work on the hope of changing a guy when it almost NEVER works in the real world -- but it will for Sally. Hell the comic is written BY men and even they've been able to point out this crap in women's personalities using Sally. To the women who think men are totally clueless , it's going to really suck to be them. M:25YL mischaracterizes the characters and even Ken has stated this was more of a fanservice than something he could actually see happening naturally. When Sonic changes and settles down Sally will have won her little game of "reforming" Sonic and lose interest. It's doubtful at that point their relationship would even have lasted long enough FOR them to have kids and assuming it did, it'd be a rather turbulent relationship where the kids are the only ones keeping the family together.

[Flyboy Fox]

Except that you're attempting to apply real life reality to a comic book series. I think that's what it all boils down to. You're expecting a comic to be capable of showing so much behind the scenes and internal crap, when it's got limited space and a story that needs to keep moving. Maybe what you want is a Sonic soap opera, not an action comic.

[Picchi]

Except that you're attempting to apply real life reality to a comic book series.

It still doesn't change the fact that comic books and other mediums are responsible for these annoying, maladaptive habits women tend to take on in relationships. Also, the way our personalities and relationships work with one another are the same in real life as they are in fiction. Just because Sonic and Sally are fictional characters doesn't mean their relationship wouldn't grow turbulent if within their natural characterizations. Heck, we even saw a glimpse of this problem in the original M:25YL.

Maybe what you want is a Sonic soap opera, not an action comic.

But then, I don't think Miko was citing what she'd want to happen as much as what was most likely to. In any case, I acknowledge the fact that SonSal would get rocky after awhile. That's part of the reason I don't to see them together; they're not the kind of pairing I could actually see "working" out well in the end.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Picchi

[Blazey Firekitty]

Why'd you say she didn't then? O.o

Well, what I mean is, I don't feel like she's trying to change him in the way that delusional women who think they can change bad boys(And sadly wind up in abusive relationships) do. I just feel like she's come to accept Sonic's eccentricities instead of feeling she has to make them go away.

In my mind the whole SonSal thing has always been about people who are very different from each other on the surface, but learn to stop being irritated by their respective differences because deep down they are very much the same.

It's kind of like Ash and Misty, to use another fandom. The whole "The more two people fight on the outside, the more they really care on the inside" thing.