Detective SSMB & The Case of the Sonic 25th Anniversary "P.g. 100 is the best... food discussion started."

[Tani Coyote]

Speaking as a guy who lurks on a lot of social media...

Whenever Boom content is posted, there's a few guys who raise Hell over it, demanding cancellation or saying Boom sucks, but I've noticed there are a lot more Shares, Likes, etc.

It's not so much the whole fandom hates Boom, so much as there's a very vocal minority. I've seen entire discussions in groups where everyone takes turns taking a dump on Boom, but these are people with the free time and passion (however negative) to spend such time on this. Most do not care this much either way, never mind hate is easier to express than love.

As I predicted back in February of 2014, most people have long since accepted Boom. The fact it's not a full-on reboot as originally concerned did a good deal to help that. To say nothing of the fact this is NOT a fandom that values quality, so the fact Boom's had rather poor performance thus far means little.

Even if the whole fandom hated it, SEGA would just shrug and release it anyway. They pumped millions of dollars into this. It'd be idiotic to not try to make that money back. Doubly so if they can build a new demographic around it, thus diversifying their market.

[baba_944]

I'm actually really hyped for "Sonic Boom: Fire & Ice". I loved "Shattered Crystal" from what I've played of the demo.

[Kfarc]

I, personaly, don't care about Fire & Ice. But I hope it will be realese and it will be good. At least. Why? Because it's Sonic. It's Sega. It will be the weakest link in frenchise. It will be the easiest way for haters to jump on it (because: Rise of Lyric). When they'll jump on F&I, they will jump further on Boom. Later on Sonic. And Sega. And they image in public is far from good. Because of 2014, and very calm 2015. Fana have nothing to show haters. Only those interviews, which are not backed by viseble actions. So we can wait. And it turns us crazy. Even after first anoucments of a new Sonic Team game there will be sceptisism. INSIDE THE FANBASE. There will be only few to protect our beloved frenchise. So Fire & Ice HAS TO BE GOOD. No matter what. And that takes time. And cancelation? It won't help at this moment. They crossed the no return point. It's been to long in development.

Oh... and about no Sonic 25 anoucment yet? That's how Sega handles marketing of Sonic since at least 2011. The only diference being the fact that there was no significant game in 2015

[Chris Knopps]

30 minutes ago, Kfarc said:

I, personaly, don't care about Fire & Ice. But I hope it will be realese and it will be good. At least. Why? Because it's Sonic. It's Sega. It will be the weakest link in frenchise. It will be the easiest way for haters to jump on it (because: Rise of Lyric). When they'll jump on F&I, they will jump further on Boom. Later on Sonic. And Sega. And they image in public is far from good. Because of 2014, and very calm 2015. Fana have nothing to show haters. Only those interviews, which are not backed by viseble actions. So we can wait. And it turns us crazy. Even after first anoucments of a new Sonic Team game there will be sceptisism. INSIDE THE FANBASE. There will be only few to protect our beloved frenchise. So Fire & Ice HAS TO BE GOOD. No matter what. And that takes time. And cancelation? It won't help at this moment. They crossed the no return point. It's been to long in development.

Oh... and about no Sonic 25 anoucment yet? That's how Sega handles marketing of Sonic since at least 2011. The only diference being the fact that there was no significant game in 2015

Kind of difficult to make out your comment... Is English not your first language of choice? I mean no offense, it's just a bit hard to read...

That aside, the companies image and the Sonic franchise is definitely out of the positive spotlight, far from it at the moment, but perhaps this will be a magic year for both. Who knows?

Both the BOOM games and Lost World were SEGA's fault entirely, so from here on I expect them to stay out of Sonic development, the result being actual Sonic games. They should have never taken control of the franchise out of Sonic Team/Iizuka's hands in the first place, so on SEGA's side of things I'd say the failures are deserved, while Sonic Team and its staff deserve our sympathy and support.

[Kfarc]

18 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Kind of difficult to make out your comment... Is English not your first language of choice? I mean no offense, it's just a bit hard to read...

Sorry for inconvenience. I'm not a native speaker. Also I'm not used to write long posts. I apologise for all mistakes made here (probably in this post too ). I'll try to improve in the future. Again, I'm veeeery sorry...

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Kfarc said:

Sorry for inconvenience. I'm not a native speaker. Also I'm not used to write long posts. I apologise for all mistakes made here (probably in this post too ). I'll try to improve in the future. Again, I'm veeeery sorry...

No need to apologize, it's still good enough to make a response to.

[Clewis]

2 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

They should have never taken control of the franchise out of Sonic Team/Iizuka's hands in the first place, so on SEGA's side of things I'd say the failures are deserved, while Sonic Team and its staff deserve our sympathy and support..

Sonic Team will only get my "sympathy and support" when they can display a consistent level of competence regarding general game design. Sega wanting Lost World to resemble a traditional Mario platformer isn't the reason the game ended up being mediocre. The concept on its own is (debatably) fine, Sonic Team deciding to execute this concept by developing a poor man's Mario Galaxy/Donkey Kong Country is why the game ended up in such a flawed state.     

[Chris Knopps]

31 minutes ago, Clewis said:

Sonic Team will only get my "sympathy and support" when they can display a consistent level of competence regarding general game design. Sega wanting Lost World to resemble a traditional Mario platformer isn't the reason the game ended up being mediocre. The concept on its own is (debatably) fine, Sonic Team deciding to execute this concept by developing a poor man's Mario Galaxy/Donkey Kong Country is why the game ended up as flawed as it is.     

A... Actually...

...Huh...

...Touche'....

While I'm completely against Sonic resembling a Mario title in any shape or form beyond being a platformer in itself, I can't argue against that really.

[shdowhunt60]

2 hours ago, Rocket Raccoogilvie said:

uld just shrug and release it anyway. They pumped millions of dollars into this. It'd be idiotic to not try to make that money back. Doubly so if they can build a new demographic around it, thus diversifying their market.

Right, I think this is ultimately the thing innit? SEGA's already foot-deep and they need to see this thing through. They're not a huge conglomerate like Google or Microsoft who can cancel multimillion dollar projects willy nilly.

[Chris Knopps]

17 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Right, I think this is ultimately the thing innit? SEGA's already foot-deep and they need to see this thing through. They're not a huge conglomerate like Google or Microsoft who can cancel multimillion dollar projects willy nilly.

...Hasn't SEGA done that plenty in the past though...?

Think of all the partnerships and merchandise that was scrapped...

[shdowhunt60]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

...Hasn't SEGA done that plenty in the past though...?

Think of all the partnerships and merchandise that was scrapped...

In the past, yes. But that's the past. SEGA's in dire straights right now, they cannot afford to lose more money.

[Chris Knopps]

5 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

In the past, yes. But that's the past. SEGA's in dire straights right now, they cannot afford to lose more money.

You know...

I think it's due to their gambling business starting to do poorly that SEGA's finally realized "Crap... We're supposed to make games, aren't we?" and started all this apologetic stuff and quality emphasis.

Guess in the grand scheme of things their games/mascot had become their final resort, and that has shown as of late. Going by their business practice they seemingly figured success in Japan game wise and their gambling market was all they needed, and now neither of those are keeping them afloat so it's back to "making good Sonic games" again.

(Still hoping for Sony to buy out Sonic Team in the end and all IP's with it...)

[SSF1991]

Quote

Have to think of this from the perspective of a company and not a fan.

Quote

SEGA's in dire straights right now, they cannot afford to lose more money.

I find it ironic how you're telling someone these things, when this is the problem I feel that lies in your argument against mine.

Quote

Which still doesn't exclude the possibility of them showcasing what they have. We've been over this. Games can be showed off years in advance. This has been a thing before.

Yes, we've been over this. So why do you keep coming off as a broken record, even though I've explained that if they could showcase anything, they would? SEGA doesn't want to take any chances. What they show publicly is going to be judged, critiqued, and more. It will also heavily reflect on the game's future, too, including when the game finally releases. With all that has happened, it's understandable that SEGA would be cautious about revealing anything. Part of what contributed to Rise of Lyric's failure was what they revealed on the game looked nothing like the final product. The game was rushed too, especially in the latter half of its development cycle. SEGA's addressed both of those problems.

3 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Right, they've just bottomed out to the single digits in CPU market share, fallen to less than %20 in the GPU market share, completely lost the laptop market, and had large wholesale layoffs. AMD is every bit of in the shits right now, if not more, than SEGA is currently.

Layoffs were only part of the restructure, you know. The company had to completely migrate their HQ to another city in California. The company rearranged its divisions. That's why it's called a restructure. SEGA was completely changed from the ground up. The change was so drastic that, even now, they're still not completely settled. That's why I keep bringing it up. The restructure has done more to SEGA than I think people realize.

Not to mention SEGA's still doing well in the markets, large in part due to SEGA Sammy's wealth and the continued success of other divisions..

Few companies have been in this situation. A complete company overhaul following a disaster of a game on the scale SEGA has done is an uncommon occurrance. AMD may not be in the best situation right now, but it's nothing compared to SEGA's video gaming division.

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And they have given us no reason to care about Fire and Ice beyond that. No trailers, no gameplay demos, nothing. And before you go "but- but- restructures" again, I don't care. They could given us at the very absolute least a press release explaining on what it is they're improving about the game. 

...They told us a release date for Fire & Ice during the SXSW panel. And now you want a press release explaining exactly what they're doing to the game? This isn't a Kickstarter project...

1 hour ago, Clewis said:

Sonic Team deciding to execute this concept by developing a poor man's Mario Galaxy/Donkey Kong Country is why the game ended up as flawed as it is.     

No. No it's not.

It was very experimental. That's what ultimately drew the quality down. Not the "Mario ripoff" (which I still feel is not actually a thing) argument that people have to bring up every single time Lost World is even mentioned the slightest bit, like games have never been inspired by other franchises before (Yuji Naka has said Sonic was very inspired by Mario)

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, SSF1991 said:

It was very experimental. That's what ultimately drew the quality down. Not the "Mario ripoff" (which I still feel is not actually a thing) argument that people have to bring up every single time Lost World is even mentioned the slightest bit, like games have never been inspired by other franchises before (Yuji Naka has said Sonic was very inspired by Mario)

Inspired by but was never meant to resemble in design, only the fact they are both platformers and nothing more.

Lost World is literally Mario World, just with Mario in a Sonic costume.

(Let us never see the Bowser and Koopaling imitations/mutations ever again)

[Tails spin]

17 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

 

(Still hoping for Nintendo to buy out Sonic Team in the end and all IP's with it...)

There fixed that for you.?

[SSF1991]

Quote

Inspired by but was never meant to resemble in design, only the fact they are both platformers and nothing more.

It really doesn't resemble in design. In fact, some of the things the game did, Sonic did first. This includes the spherical-planet platforming.

If anything, the Game Gear games feel more of an accurate comparison to Lost World. Like Lost World, the Game Gear games were too experimental. They had awkward gimmicks (hang-glide, pogo stick, et cetera), awkward level design (that pipe maze near the end of Sonic 2 for starters), and little story explanation.

Quote

Lost World is literally Mario World, just with Mario in a Sonic costume.

So now it's Super Mario World? First it was Galaxy, now it's Super Mario World. If people can't even stick to what Mario game Lost World supposedly ripped off, then the credibility for this argument falls.

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

(Let us never see the Bowser and Koopaling imitations/mutations ever again)

Firstly, you mean "me" and not "us".

Secondly, just because one of them increased their size at the end doesn't automatically make him Bowser. And honestly, just because there were six of them doesn't make them Koopalings either. The Deadly Six may have been stereotypes, but at least they were that. The Koopalings don't have any personalities whatsoever. They laugh, they try to stop Mario, and...that's it.

But we're getting off-topic now.

[Tails spin]

Just now, SSF1991 said:

It really doesn't resemble in design. In fact, some of the things the game did, Sonic did first. This includes the spherical-planet platforming.

If anything, the Game Gear games feel more of an accurate comparison to Lost World. Like Lost World, the Game Gear games were too experimental. They had awkward gimmicks (hang-glide, pogo stick, et cetera), awkward level design (that pipe maze near the end of Sonic 2 for starters), and little story explanation.

So now it's Super Mario World? First it was Galaxy, now it's Super Mario World. If people can't even stick to what Mario game Lost World supposedly ripped off, then the credibility for this argument falls.

Firstly, you mean "me" and not "us".

Secondly, just because one of them increased their size at the end doesn't automatically make him Bowser. And honestly, just because there were six of them doesn't make them Koopalings either. The Deadly Six may have been stereotypes, but at least they were that. The Koopalings don't have any personalities whatsoever. They laugh, they try to stop Mario, and...that's it.

But we're getting off-topic now.

Mario and luigi paper jam gave the koopalings personalities

[SSF1991]

Well, in RPGs they kind of have to. I really don't get why those personalities don't appear in the platformers, which I'm referring to, but they don't.

Seeing as how the "Mario ripoff" argument constantly speaks of the platformers, I've been referring to the platformers.

[Chris Knopps]

Lets just agree we're not going to see another Sonic game get so close to a Mario game again for a long, long time due to all the feedback from consumers and critics, with even IGN reminding SEGA they coveted Mario too much in the game in their review.

[SSF1991]

IGN aren't the "know all, say all" on things. They're just giving opinions on games just as much as you and I. The difference is that many people observe them.

Still yes, I agree.

[Chris Knopps]

I suppose I should clarify on this however...

Mario and Sonic...

I don't mind them in the Olympic games, for a spin-off franchise that brings them together in a bunch of mini-games, that's fine by me. I enjoy that series.

But when you start to get a strong Mario vibe in the main titles ALONGSIDE the Mario and Sonic games we already get to cater to the desire to see the two franchises together, that's when it strikes a nerve.

It's like having all the comedy in the main series and having it amplified to the N'th degree in BOOM, there's just too much of the same thing going on, there's no variety really. There's no option for anyone who wants something different.

[SSF1991]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

It's like having all the comedy in the main series and having it amplified to the N'th degree in BOOM, there's just too much of the same thing going on, there's no variety really. There's no option for anyone who wants something different.

There is an option. It's called Sonic X.

Sonic has always been a comedy. Even in the "edgy" Adventure games, the games still had a lot of jokes. While the humor of the comedy may have changed to a degree (it seems to be more "in-your-face" than it was back then), the concept remains the same.

By the way, Sonic Boom is also a spin-off. It may be a branch within the franchise, but that's how spin-offs tend to be.

[Diogenes]

Where's this idea come from that Sonic is supposed to be all things to all people, anyway.

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

There is an option. It's called Sonic X.

Sonic has always been a comedy. Even in the "edgy" Adventure games, the games still had a lot of jokes. While the humor of the comedy may have changed to a degree (it seems to be more "in-your-face" than it was back then), the concept remains the same.

By the way, Sonic Boom is also a spin-off. It may be a branch within the franchise, but that's how spin-offs tend to be.

 

CURRENTLY there are no alternative for Sonic fans seeking something different from the franchise. You've got the Mario and Sonic series, then the main series trying to be more like Mario basically.

You have the main series color and comedy, then you've got BOOM's overbearing comedy, just without the color.

That's my point, it matters not the past content of the franchise, but what it has to offer presently, and there's no variety to draw people in.

[SSF1991]

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

CURRENTLY there are no alternative for Sonic fans seeking something different from the franchise. You've got the Mario and Sonic series, then the main series trying to be more like Mario basically.

You have the main series color and comedy, then you've got BOOM's overbearing comedy, just without the color.

That's my point, it matters not the past content of the franchise, but what it has to offer presently, and there's no variety to draw people in.

So Sonic sticking to what works, and what has worked since the 90s, is somehow lacking in variety?

Why should a franchise completely change what it is all about because a few fans who dislike comedy want something else?