Detective SSMB & The Case of the Sonic 25th Anniversary "P.g. 100 is the best... food discussion started."

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

Planet Wisp in Colors was kind of realistic, to be fair.

And even then, the Boom games have both of those.

It... Didn't make up for the whole food world part of the game to me... It just didn't feel right at all in a Sonic game. I'm fine with fantasy elements here and there, going out there to trippy places, But food worlds I just can't handle in Sonic...

And that I'm aware of, I said I'm thankful for BOOM doing that with realism.

[SSF1991]

So one area in the game ruined it that much?

Whatever the case, it's worth noting that Sonic has always mixed fantasy worlds with a "cartoony realism", where things were exaggerated. Yeah, you went to realistic places, but usually these same places had cartoony civilizations, where people and animals looked cartoony, or structures to enhance the world and/or for platforming purposes in levels. And then there were those cartoony fantasy worlds like the special stages, Twinkle Park, islands floating in the sky, giant robotic bases, and more.

 

[Chris Knopps]

6 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

So one area in the game ruined it that much?

Whatever the case, it's worth noting that Sonic has always mixed fantasy worlds with a "cartoony realism", where things were exaggerated. Yeah, you went to realistic places, but usually these same places had cartoony civilizations, where people and animals looked cartoony, or structures to enhance the world and/or for platforming purposes in levels. And then there were those cartoony fantasy worlds like the special stages, Twinkle Park, islands floating in the sky, giant robotic bases, and more.

 

Yeah but keep in mind the realism in all those locations. Compared to today the Genesis and Adventure games were like freakin' Grand Theft Auto when you compare the realism between the two eras.

Cartoony realism was not as big a part of those games as you seem to be making them out to be save for Green Hill Zone and yes, the special stages. The rest of the games were more like a realistic Indiana Jones action flick with a blue hedgehog in the man's place.

[SSF1991]

Eh, I wouldn't say that. I still get the same vibe, compared to recent games.

[Badnik Mechanic]

57 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

As far as Generations selling well, it was a fanboy/girls orgasm fest with Classic Sonic officially tossed in, of course it's gonna sell well. 

Regarding Colors selling well, it just got lucky, extraordinarily lucky, that's all there is to it. Something about it had a sense of magic, I don't know what exactly, but something in that game just sold.

 

So Generations only sold well because the only people who bought it were fans of the classics.

And colours was luck and magic.

You've not done much critical study on things have you?

[Chris Knopps]

6 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

So Generations only sold well because the only people who bought it were fans of the classics.

And colours was luck and magic.

You've not done much critical study on things have you?

Cut me some slack, praise is praise, I'm not being negative when I say that.

[Badnik Mechanic]

5 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Cut me some slack, praise is praise, I'm not being negative.

You just basically quantified the success of something to luck... 

You're totally dismissing all other merits it had which contribited to its success because of reasons we don't understand.

With the other it's 'well it only sold because of fans' erm. That's kinda stupid. Otherwise surely these fans would have mindlessly bought all games of the same type in similar to greater numbers?

Abracadabra.

[Indigo Rush]

5 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Cut me some slack, praise is praise, I'm not being negative when I say that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insult#Backhanded_compliment

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Detective Hogfather said:

You just basically quantified the success of something to luck... 

You're totally dismissing all other merits it had which contribited to its success because of reasons we don't understand.

Abracadabra.

Would the generic "dat gameplay!!!" statement appease you then...?

I'd like to be able to say something other than gameplay sold that game, any Sonic game really... Hence my "depth" topic.

[shdowhunt60]

Colors only looks anomalous in hindsight, when all the game's flaws became apparent. Back when it came out there was a ton of hype about how it fixed Sonic, and it was the first good Sonic game since 06, and Sonic Team was finally listening, and the story was finally not awful etc.

... Like I said, in hindsight that doesn't make sense. Unleashed was a better game. Colors had the obnoxious wisps, the awful 2D platforming and

It was a decent game. But not nearly worth deserving the praise it got. But at the time, we didn't feel that way.

[Guest]

This thread is more about arguing with Chris Knopps about whatever he dislikes about Sonic than it is about Sonic's 25th anniversary.

[Indigo Rush]

Just now, TimmiT said:

This thread is more about arguing with Chris Knopps about whatever he dislikes about Sonic than it is about Sonic's 25th anniversary.

*deletes 5 paragraph response*

I hope Sonic is fast in the new game.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

*deletes 5 paragraph response*

I hope Sonic is fast in the new game.

Here here. I'd like a game that does something with mach speed again vs bringing back the whole boost thing.

[shdowhunt60]

3 minutes ago, TimmiT said:

This thread is more about arguing with Chris Knopps about whatever he dislikes about Sonic than it is about Sonic's 25th anniversary.

To be fair, it's not like there's a hell lot of else to talk about. Gee, I hope that 25th anniversary game has Sonic in it.

[Toa Axis]

47 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Would the generic "dat gameplay!!!" statement appease you then...?

I'd like to be able to say something other than gameplay sold that game, any Sonic game really... Hence my "depth" topic.

The reality is that, typically, when a Sonic game is successful, it is primarily because that people find the gameplay and other systems therein very appealing to them. Sonic has traditionally been a platforming game first and foremost, and as a result, the focus tends to be on the aspects that drive the moment-to-moment platforming gameplay. How does the level design look? What new stage concepts will there be? What new mechanics are the developers bringing to the table? These questions aren't unique to Sonic games, they're what many use to gauge interest in other platformers as well. It's fine to be attracted to Sonic games by virtue of the content of their narrative and the like, but you can't misconstrue your own specific point of interest with the interests of the general public. Most people decide their potential investments in platformers through gameplay-related facets. That is the reality.

That is not to say, however, that your interest in other aspects of Sonic games other than their core systems are not warranted nor valid. 

[Chris Knopps]

42 minutes ago, Toa Axis said:

The reality is that, typically, when a Sonic game is successful, it is primarily because that people find the gameplay and other systems therein very appealing to them. Sonic has traditionally been a platforming game first and foremost, and as a result, the focus tends to be on the aspects that drive the moment-to-moment platforming gameplay. How does the level design look? What new stage concepts will there be? What new mechanics are the developers bringing to the table? These questions aren't unique to Sonic games, they're what many use to gauge interest in other platformers as well. It's fine to be attracted to Sonic games by virtue of the content of their narrative and the like, but you can't misconstrue your own specific point of interest with the interests of the general public. Most people decide their potential investments in platformers through gameplay-related facets. That is the reality.

That is not to say, however, that your interest in other aspects of Sonic games other than their core systems are not warranted nor valid. 

Those are my main issues. None of those aspects seem to have any depth to them, and when they try to add depth as with Sonic BOOM and Lost World they do so in a very poor manner that just winds up a complete mess.

I miss the level designs we had from Sonic 1 through Unleashed, and the random spin-off such as Rush and Black Knight that really added to the franchise. Nowadays things seem so... I dunno.

It's hard to explain but things that should be there just isn't, and what they've tried replacing things with just isn't working... I just want another game with a script like Unleashed and/or Black Knight and a world like S3&K and Unleashed, with the amount of characters we had in SA/SA2 and/or Heroes assuming they could make teams work again somehow...

A game with dominant realism, yet just a touch of illusion/fantasy to give it... Maybe a CD feel to it...

All I ask... Seriously.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Colors only looks anomalous in hindsight, when all the game's flaws became apparent. Back when it came out there was a ton of hype about how it fixed Sonic, and it was the first good Sonic game since 06, and Sonic Team was finally listening, and the story was finally not awful etc.

... Like I said, in hindsight that doesn't make sense. Unleashed was a better game. Colors had the obnoxious wisps, the awful 2D platforming and

It was a decent game. But not nearly worth deserving the praise it got. But at the time, we didn't feel that way.

This notion is subject to doubt since there's nothing truly objective to suggest that Colors didn't warrant praise for being a solidly good game. 

Platforming being largely 2D in and of itself,  wasn't objectively bad. 

And trying to use Wisps as a supposedly obnoxious detriment to the gameplay in Colors when in that game,  not only are they still regarded more positively in that particular game,  but they're optional to use in said game too. 

Writing,  not that bad either. 

Now,  you wanna actual hindsight,  Unleashed has a lot more biting it in the rear. Hell,  one of the major reasons why to this day Colors is still overall regarded as a stronger game than Unleashed is because Colors was built and refined around a lot of the many criticisms  that targeted Unleashed. From poor consistent pacing ala werehog, to stupid medal collecting,  slippery physics,  overpowered boost issues,  bullshit difficulty spikes,  a terrible final boss fight in the HD version,  etc. 

It's alright to like Unleashed more than Colors,  but logically speaking  it's no real mystery as to why Colors is the more fondly talked of between the two. 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

CD is like the most abstract looking Sonic game though

 

I mean what the fuck, the level is literally a trumpet

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Jovahexeon:AceFiddlePlayer said:

This notion is subject to doubt since there's nothing truly objective to suggest that Colors didn't warrant praise for being a solidly good game. 

Platforming being largely 2D in and of itself,  wasn't objectively bad. 

And trying to use Wisps as a supposedly obnoxious detriment to the gameplay in Colors when in that game,  not only are they still regarded more positively in that particular game,  but they're optional to use in said game too. 

Writing,  not that bad either. 

Now,  you wanna actual hindsight,  Unleashed has a lot more biting it in the rear. Hell,  one of the major reasons why to this day Colors is still overall regarded as a stronger game than Unleashed is because Colors was built and refined around a lot of the many criticisms  that targeted Unleashed. From poor consistent pacing ala werehog, to stupid medal collecting,  slippery physics,  overpowered boost issues,  bullshit difficulty spikes,  a terrible final boss fight in the HD version,  etc. 

It's alright to like Unleashed more than Colors,  but logically speaking  it's no real mystery as to why Colors is the more fondly talked of between the two. 

-gasps-

You take that back son... That shit beat the HELL out of Perfect Chaos by a LONG shot! The hell you smoking?

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Sanity, most likely. Just because something is long doesn't mean it's good much like the rest of unleashed

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Inspector Shaddy said:

Sanity, most likely. Just because something is long doesn't mean it's good much like the rest of unleashed

Oh yeah, and getting a 2-5 hour game that has been in development for years by a professional company, supposedly, is so much better...

It's called spectacle, and that Dark Gaia was one hell of an all you can smoke weed fest for me, and still is.

[Indigo Rush]

They're completely different kinds of boss fights, so I don't know why we're comparing them. 

Perfect Chaos is about building enough momentum to swim up and hit its head and dodge obstacles before running out of rings.

Perfect DarkGaia uses a health meter, QTEs, and a control scheme that wasn't used in the game before that point.

 

And yes, games that are short can be much better experiences than longer games. 

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Oh yeah, and getting a 2-5 hour game that has been in development for years by a professional company, supposedly, is so much better...

If it's fun, yeah.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Oh yeah, and getting a 2-5 hour game that has been in development for years by a professional company, supposedly, is so much better...

Well yeah. Cause it's fun. And fun enough to replay, making it last a lot longer provided you're not the kind of person who plays games and trades them to gamestop the day they finish them.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Toa Axis said:

The reality is that, typically, when a Sonic game is successful, it is primarily because that people find the gameplay and other systems therein very appealing to them. Sonic has traditionally been a platforming game first and foremost, and as a result, the focus tends to be on the aspects that drive the moment-to-moment platforming gameplay. How does the level design look? What new stage concepts will there be? What new mechanics are the developers  bringing to the table? These questions aren't unique to Sonic games, they're what many use to gauge interest in other platformers as well. It's fine to be attracted to Sonic games by virtue of the content of their narrative and the like, but you can't misconstrue your own specific point of interest with the interests of the general public. Most people decide their potential investments in platformers through gameplay-related facets. That is the reality.

That is not to say, however, that your interest in other aspects of Sonic games other than their core systems are not warranted nor valid. 

I would say that those other elements actually come into play way more than you think, especially on a thematic level. you mention yourself how the level looks, thatch not mechanics, that's themeing, visual story telling. The theme around a game, how it appeals to people is also a large selling point of games, and why I think people buy sonic shit in general. Because lets be frank, not every sonic game that sold well was exactly a winner, and if being a good platformer was the only qualifier for being a massive success, we would have a fuck ton more megaman, and metriod games. But we don't being good at your job isn't a qualifier. if so, sonic would have a died a long ass time ago. 

Being a good game, is important. But being an interesting a video game, is VERY important. Because if you wanna break shit down to just mechanics, sega could justs sell white unfinished polygons that go fast , and people would buy it right? No, you got to build something around that, something interesting. Something that draws folks,