Detective SSMB & The Case of the Sonic 25th Anniversary "P.g. 100 is the best... food discussion started."

[Indigo Rush]

Sonic's most focused and best games can be completed in under 6 hours, often within 2. Replayability is key, not padding. 

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

They're completely different kinds of boss fights, so I don't know why we're comparing them. 

Perfect Chaos is about building enough momentum to swim up and hit its head and dodge obstacles before running out of rings.

Perfect DarkGaia uses a health meter, QTEs, and a control scheme that wasn't used in the game before that point.

Still, definitely the best final boss in the modern series by a long shot.

...Seriously, seems like the final bosses went downhill after that, plummeting in BOOM/Lost World and suffering in Generations, seriously, wtf was up with Time Eater?

And if you folks seriously want to kiss up to the idea of games that short, by all means, more power to you, but me in this day and age?

Not happening.

How many of these short games are worth replaying exactly? You telling me Colors is as great now as some odd years ago? You can still play Generations non-stop like it's the first go?

[Shaddy Zaphod]

How are you seriously trying to argue that it's more important for a game to be long than to be good.

[Indigo Rush]

Colors' final boss was much better than Dark Gaia. It stuck to the games mechanics and actually tested your skills at the game, same for Perfect Chaos. 

Spectacle alone a good boss does not make. I understand that you seem to be easily persuaded by shiny and pretty set pieces that last ages regardless of quality, but when it comes to Sonic, gameplay and challenge is king, not length and spectacle.

Quality over quantity.

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Inspector Shaddy said:

How are you seriously trying to argue that it's better for a game to be long than to be good.

Longer games have been good. S3&K, SA/SA2, Heroes, Unleashed...

It's just trying to say "Short's my style so shut up" it seems to me... Nothing wrong with wanting more whatsoever. In fact it should be an expectation for more bang for your buck.

[Shadowlax]

2 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

but when it comes to Sonic, gameplay and challenge is king, and spectacle.

 

Spectacle, a good fun showing, is literally what sonic is about. 

Showing off. well at least when he hit 3d. 

 

Like your statement is Strait up bullshit. Or at least has been since 98

[Indigo Rush]

S3&K can be completed in well under 3 hours, so I dont know what you're talking about.

SA2's main campaign, likewise, can be completed in approximately under 5 hours.

Heroes is the same, especially if youre skilled, but most don't want to as the game is tedious for needing to be played in almost exactly the same way 4 times.

Unleashed is up for debate and you know that.

[Toa Axis]

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

-gasps-

You take that back son... That shit beat the HELL out of Perfect Chaos by a LONG shot! The hell you smoking?

Not really, at least from a design standpoint. Aside from the part where you took out the shield (which was really cool), it was just QTEs, which generally are pretty lame.

I'm not saying Perfect Chaos is the pantheon of boss design, but I value something that keeps the player in control and on their toes.

I DO admire the scale of Perfect Dark Gaia, however. If future games can offer mechanically interesting bosses with the gravitas that fight had, I would be most pleased.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Longer games have been good. S3&K, SA/SA2, Heroes, Unleashed...

It's just trying to say "Short's my style so shut up" it seems to me...

Okay, no, the classic games take less time to beat than Colors, and more importantly, I'm not saying games should be short, I'm saying they should be as short as they need to be to have adequate time put into their core gameplay and design. This is the whole reason 06 and Unleashed did fail, trying to cram in too much stuff, so that the polish was so thinly spread that the games weren't as fun as they could have been.

[Indigo Rush]

3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Spectacle, a good fun showing, is literally what sonic is about. 

Showing off. well at least when he hit 3d. 

 

Like your statement is Strait up bullshit. Or at least has been since 98

Sonic is not about spectacle alone. Even the Adventure games had solid gameplay to back it up. (The speed levels, at least).

The real issue is the padding with noncongruous gameplay mechanics and the like meant to artificially lengthen the game. These games are flawed because of this, and the spectacle is the spray paint covering up the garbage.

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

S3&K can be completed in well under 3 hours, so I dont know what you're talking about.

SA2's main campaign, likewise, can be completed in approximately under 5 hours.

Heroes is the same, especially if youre skilled, but most don't want to as the game is tedious for needing to be played in almost exactly the same way 4 times.

Unleashed is up for debate and you know that.

Yes but the games had more depth to them with additional features. You had the whole Chao Garden and mission stuff in SA and SA2, plus all the unlockables in said games, primarily SA2 which was/could still be the most rewarding title for professionals to date, you had the countless unlockable stages in Unleashed...

Generations had the missions but they weren't very rewarding I don't believe save for adding more color to the hub world...

Sonic titles had so much more to offer for your time and money than they do today, which is why there's a right to be frustrated to still pay the same price for games which offer half at best of what we got for the same thing some 10-15 years ago.

[Indigo Rush]

Additional features, as in replayability?

[therealfalconpawnch77]

Just now, Inspector Shaddy said:

Okay, no, the classic games take less time to beat than Colors, and more importantly, I'm not saying games should be short, I'm saying they should be as short as they need to be to have adequate time put into their core gameplay and design. This is the whole reason 06 and Unleashed did fail, trying to cram in too much stuff, so that the polish was so thinly spread that the games weren't as fun as they could have been.

I beat Colors in 2 Hours, Day 1. Sonic 1 took me 2 Hours and 30 Minutes, Sonic 2 (As Knuckles) Takes 3, and Sonic 3&K is a four hour game if you ignore the Super Emeralds. None of the classics are shorter than Colors.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Yes but the games had more depth to them with additional features. You had the whole Chao Garden and mission stuff in SA and SA2, plus all the unlockables in said games, primarily SA2 which was/could still be the most rewarding title for professionals to date, you had the countless unlockable stages in Unleashed...

Generations had the missions but they weren't very rewarding I don't believe save for adding more color to the hub world...

Sonic titles had so much more to offer for your time and money than they do today, which is why there's a right to be frustrated to still pay the same price for games which offer half at best of what we got for the same thing some 10-15 years ago.

But again, just having a lot of stuff does not a great game make. It has to be fun to play too, and for many people, chao and missions weren't fun because they distracted from running fast and jumping on shit. Sonic 06 had a ton of medals to unlock, and extra missions, even DLC. So it's great right? Except no, because all of it sucked major diddlydoodad dick. More importantly, if a game needs to just add extra goals to get you to keep playing, then you're not replaying it, are you? You're just adding extra slop onto your existing first playthrough. Colors and the classic games are fun enough to get you to do all the same stuff more than once because they never stopped being fun aside from the barrel so it means that both the player and the devs have less work to do and a better resulting title.

[Enesephus]

18 minutes ago, Inspector Shaddy said:

Sanity, most likely. Just because something is long doesn't mean it's good much like the rest of unleashed

It wasn't just long, it was a hell of a lot more epic.

[Chris Knopps]

8 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Additional features, as in replayability?

Essentially... Yes...?

To keep getting Sonic games with just Sonic playable and the only thing offered in the games is getting from Stage 1 to final with no rewards is not worth paying the same price as what we payed for games that offered at least twice as much content.

No rewards for high ranks... No rewards for red rings save Super Sonic which by the time you unlock him it wasn't even worth it due to the tediousness of it all...

Compared to past titles, you get nothing for your full priced payment.

I mean hell... Even unlockable CONCEPT ART would do, just because of how empty today's games have been.

[Indigo Rush]

This circular discussion could be continued in another topic, I think. Until then, I'm not going to contribute to the toxicity of the atmosphere that just sprung up here a few pages ago. I'm bowing out. This debate is overdone and I'm so sick of explaining the same things over and over to different people. Someone tap me out. I'm tired of the weak arguments 

EDIT:

We seem to have posted at the same time, Mr Knopps, but I will not be responding, I apologize for any offense. I'm tired. In general.

[SSF1991]

2 hours ago, TimmiT said:

This thread is more about arguing with Chris Knopps about whatever he dislikes about Sonic than it is about Sonic's 25th anniversary.

I started all this, didn't I? lol

To be fair though, the thread has been loaded with arguments and debates made by many users. So yeah. XP

 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

 

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Essentially... Yes...?

To keep getting Sonic games with just Sonic playable and the only thing offered in the games is getting from Stage 1 to final with no rewards is not worth paying the same price as what we payed for games that offered at least twice as much content.

No rewards for high ranks... No rewards for red rings save Super Sonic which by the time you unlock him it wasn't even worth it due to the tediousness of it all...

Compared to past titles, you get nothing for your full priced payment.

Okay, so red rings are tedious, and medals aren't? Only one of those is required just to fight the final friggin' boss. Content means nothing if none of it is good.  Why must I keep saying this? 

Show me a long Sonic game that at no point drags, where every mission is fun and the core gameplay is perfect enough that you don't need to explain why it's good, and then you'd have something to use against Colors for only having good core gameplay. But no Sonic game like that exists, and so you don't have anything.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

To keep getting Sonic games with just Sonic playable and the only thing offered in the games is getting from Stage 1 to final with no rewards is not worth paying the same price as what we payed for games that offered at least twice as much content.

It is if I'll have more fun with it.

[Chris Knopps]

...Diogenes is it necessary for you to post in this discussion if it's just to pop in with comments like that at your convenience...?

Anyways...

This conversation isn't toxic by any means, it's just generally about wanting more content in future installments now, and more length as a simultaneous topic.

And Shaddy...

If running and jumping on things does it for you in a modern day Sonic game... God help you my friend... I wish I had cash to waste on full priced games that offer basically nothing more than that.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

6 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

If running and jumping on things does it for you in a modern day Sonic game... God help you my friend...

Pretty much what Sonic is about! Running, jumping and speed. Have you ever played a Sonic game before?

[Wraith]

I'm surprised the replayability vs content debate is happening when any franchise worth a damn has at  least a decent grasp on both. We shouldn't need pick our poison. A fun, well put together 6-10 hour sonic game that you actually want play again is what everyone wants, I think.  

[SSF1991]

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

If running and jumping on things does it for you in a modern day Sonic game... God help you my friend... I wish I had cash to waste on full priced games that offer basically nothing more than that.

Welcome to Sonic.

Actually, welcome to platformers.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

I'm surprised the replayability vs content debate is happening when any franchise worth a damn has at  least a decent grasp on both. We shouldn't need pick our poison. A fun, well put together 6-10 hour sonic game that you actually want play again is what everyone wants, I think.  

Oh, absolutely. It's just that we haven't got one of those, and need to be smart when picking what kind of game we want to get instead.