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Detective SSMB & The Case of the Sonic 25th Anniversary "P.g. 100 is the best... food discussion started."

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5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Because instead of (ideally) every Sonic fan buying every Sonic game, it splits the fanbase and only a fraction of it buys each game.

Well, while ideally, SEGA should release 3D Sonic games that can please everyone, I don't think there's anything wrong with releasing (good) 2D games alongside the 3D ones to make the Classic crowd happy. I don't even consider myself a part of that crowd (the only classic game I really like is S3&K) and I would really enjoy that. 

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Honestly if they go and do something drastic like another "sonic 4" it would be really cool if they made a non-cg 2D platformer, possibly with hand drawn sprite animations (like skullgirls) and anime-style cutscenes like the sonic riders intro, which even if it wasn't the best game, that intro was pretty rad. 

Or like Rayman Origins.

Spoiler sonic_boom_by_orioto-d46rgoe.jpg

I would pretty much  tumblr_ntg637LrqU1uouf1fo1_500.gif if that actually happened.

For a mile second there I thought this was legit o.o Man, I would buy a Sonic game that looks like this and plays like the Genesis ten times, I shit you not.

Honestly if they go and do something drastic like another "sonic 4" it would be really cool if they made a non-cg 2D platformer, possibly with hand drawn sprite animations (like skullgirls) and anime-style cutscenes like the sonic riders intro, which even if it wasn't the best game, that intro was pretty rad. 

Or like Rayman Origins.

Spoiler sonic_boom_by_orioto-d46rgoe.jpg

I would pretty much  tumblr_ntg637LrqU1uouf1fo1_500.gif if that actually happened.

For a mile second there I thought this was legit o.o Man, I would buy a Sonic game that looks like this and plays like the Genesis ten times, I shit you not.

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Although that picture is epic.....Sonic should not even shift in art style of Rayman Origins. Maybe, but not now, not with the series currently how it is....

 

Why?

Because the fanbase is an unstable mess, to make a 2D Sonic game that takes on a painting/anime drawing style instead of sprites or pre-rendered. You are asking for a split of the fanbase even more.

Remember this was the fan base that, 16 years ago, bitched about green eyes.

Now we have people bitching about 2D or 3D, now imagine this.

People bitching about 2D with painting/anime drawing, pixel/sprites, or pre-rendered.

 

AS a spin-off title later down when people start to not bitch about Sonic, THEN you can do a Rayman Origins type deal. But as of current....you'd be making headache for yourself.

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26 minutes ago, WakanoBaka said:

Although that picture is epic.....Sonic should not even shift in art style of Rayman Origins. Maybe, but not now, not with the series currently how it is....

 

Why?

Because the fanbase is an unstable mess, to make a 2D Sonic game that takes on a painting/anime drawing style instead of sprites or pre-rendered. You are asking for a split of the fanbase even more.

Remember this was the fan base that, 16 years ago, bitched about green eyes.

Now we have people bitching about 2D or 3D, now imagine this.

People bitching about 2D with painting/anime drawing, pixel/sprites, or pre-rendered.

I really feel that we need to go back to basics again. A 2D title in Rayman Origins graphics would be nice. 

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31 minutes ago, WakanoBaka said:

Although that picture is epic.....Sonic should not even shift in art style of Rayman Origins. Maybe, but not now, not with the series currently how it is....

 

Why?

Because the fanbase is an unstable mess, to make a 2D Sonic game that takes on a painting/anime drawing style instead of sprites or pre-rendered. You are asking for a split of the fanbase even more.

Remember this was the fan base that, 16 years ago, bitched about green eyes.

Now we have people bitching about 2D or 3D, now imagine this.

People bitching about 2D with painting/anime drawing, pixel/sprites, or pre-rendered.

 

AS a spin-off title later down when people start to not bitch about Sonic, THEN you can do a Rayman Origins type deal. But as of current....you'd be making headache for yourself.

No, by your logic, they'd bitch anyway because it'd still be a new style in addition to the ones we already have. Time on its own isn't going to make people stop bitching, SEGA making high quality games with wide appeal that stick with one style per series/sub-series will... for the most part. 

I was just saying that a beautiful, lush hand drawn style would be a really cool one to see for a theoretical 2D sub-series, you don't have to be a party pooper.

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wow geez just cuz i mention a 2D gameplay style doesn't mean i'm saying "3D is absolute trash" because honestly why can't we have both?

 

Imagine this though, take the sonic channel wallpapers and desing the characters like that in a sketchy world environment 

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59 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Do people really equate art styles with different gameplay styles and sub-fandoms now? Is SA2 not a real Adventure game because it looks different? Is Colors not a modern/boost game because it doesn't have Unleashed's lighting? How deep does the rabbit hole go on this one?

Colors is not a modern/boost game because Colors throws away Unleashed/Generations style in the form of non speed momentum based 2D platforming and wisp....

 

1 hour ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

No, by your logic, they'd bitch anyway because it'd still be a new style in addition to the ones we already have. Time on its own isn't going to make people stop bitching, SEGA making high quality games with wide appeal that stick with one style per series/sub-series will... for the most part. 

I was just saying that a beautiful, lush hand drawn style would be a really cool one to see for a theoretical 2D sub-series, you don't have to be a party pooper.

Never said they wouldn't bitch bout that, or any change. Sega is what people would call, a people pleaser. Thing is, the people they intend to please don't even know what made the fucking games in the first place...that and SEGA done lost those who did remember.

 

And you must forgive me, not my intention to rain on your float....

1 hour ago, Tails spin said:

I really feel that we need to go back to basics again. A 2D title in Rayman Origins graphics would be nice. 

First ask, how much people would that piss off? We are talking HALF of the Sonic fanbase that want 3D. And then there is the case of,not all people like the classics nor played them. Or even, the only 2D Sonic game they played was the Rush series.

Then ask yourself, what is basics?

 

 

27 minutes ago, RazorToshiba said:

wow geez just cuz i mention a 2D gameplay style doesn't mean i'm saying "3D is absolute trash" because honestly why can't we have both?

 

Imagine this though, take the sonic channel wallpapers and desing the characters like that in a sketchy world environment 

Because this is Sonic fan base.....logic? What thou is that?

2D Sections in 3D, bitch.

2D game, with might as well auto run 3D section(*cough*Sonic Colors),bitch(rightfully tho).

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1 minute ago, Jango said:

I'm sure even people who want a 3D game would like a 2D one if it is great above all things, art style included.

You'd be surprise, not even good ol Sonic CD design Sonic can save the Sonic fanbase....

 

It's funny because, Sonic CD was a spin-off TITLE, it was non-canon once, it wasn't suppose to contribute to the main story. But SEGA done treating it like a holy grail along S3&K. So if we get a spin off title, don't hang up on it YET.

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1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

Is Colors not a modern/boost game because it doesn't have Unleashed's lighting?

That is correct, the different lighting made the whole game suck

I wouldn't mind another new 2D Sonic game, but I'd much prefer a 3D one. As it stands I haven't enjoyed any 2D Sonic games enough to want to keep coming back to it. Even Generations' Classic Sonic levels weren't that great.

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43 minutes ago, WakanoBaka said:

Colors is not a modern/boost game because Colors throws away Unleashed/Generations style in the form of non speed momentum based 2D platforming and wisp....

That doesn't really address the point I made, which is that there's little sense in separating the gameplay styles and thus the fandom by graphical style.

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28 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

That doesn't really address the point I made, which is that there's little sense in separating the gameplay styles and thus the fandom by graphical style.

True....You speak truth....but I just felt like I should say it ya know.

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2 hours ago, WakanoBaka said:

Sonic CD was a spin-off TITLE

I see what you did there

 

1 hour ago, Valentine's Playa Kirito said:

That is correct, the different lighting made the whole game suck

I wouldn't mind another new 2D Sonic game, but I'd much prefer a 3D one. As it stands I haven't enjoyed any 2D Sonic games enough to want to keep coming back to it. Even Generations' Classic Sonic levels weren't that great.

the reason for Colors having a different lighting engine is because the "Hedgehog engine" was too powerful for the Wii's seriously dated hardware, if they had held off and released it on wii U (But really, who's gonna hold off for years to put a game on a console when it's already done) it would have supported the same shaders as gens/unleashed, the gameplay style however, is basically the same "Boost to win" style just with more platforming elements thrown in. 

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7 hours ago, Jango said:

I'm sure even people who want a 3D game would like a 2D one if it is great above all things, art style included.

I want them to do both. 

Like that time they were doing that. You know when the released both 2d hand held games and 3d console games. Almost as if its thats possible, like sega and a lot of the fanbase forgot you could do that. 

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Developers sometimes get a bit of an inferiority complex about 2D gameplay, as they do with 2D graphics, and get it into their heads that no self-respecting game company these days makes 2D games; that the moment they get the ability to, they have to upgrade to 3D, for the sake of their reputation and self-respect.  I feel like Sonic Team might still be stuck in that rut, caught between a reluctance to "go backwards" and the knowledge that their 2D games are the best and best-liked they've ever made.  So they keep on plugging away at 3D, making token gestures towards 2D now and then which their heart clearly isn't in and outsourcing handheld and mobile games in actual 2D, and then when they realise that they can do it then suddenly their handheld games have to play in 3D as well, even though they have no idea what the 3D gameplay of the series actually as...  Pure speculation, of course.  But it'll be interesting to see their next non-Boom handheld title.

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6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I want them to do both. 

Like that time they were doing that. You know when the released both 2d hand held games and 3d console games. Almost as if its thats possible, like sega and a lot of the fanbase forgot you could do that. 

It's precisely because they were on handheld systems that the fans and Sega don't even know that they exist. The handheld Sonic games have historically gotten nowhere near the amount of attention and promotion as the console Sonic games, especially so since all of them are outsourced and have not been made in-house by Sonic Team themselves. I'll even wager that is also one of the reasons why the handheld games have been dumbed down variants of the console games starting with Colors. Instead of having to produce and market two versions of Sonic games --one for handhelds and one for consoles--, just produce and market one Sonic game for both gaming platforms (which in this context means just have the handheld games be an adaptation of the console games).

A good 2D Sonic game would get a lot more attention from the general public, let alone Sega and the fanbase, if Sega gave the handheld titles the same amount of promotion as the 3D games--which as we've seen, has never been the case until the handheld versions stopped being original titles (and even then, the console games still get the lion's share of promotion). So that option is very unlikely. The remaining option for a good 2D Sonic game to get noticed is to simply develop it for consoles instead.

Indeed, the last time Sonic Team themselves made a fully 2D or 2.5D Sonic game has been Sonic & Knuckles. Save for the Backbone-developed Rivals series and the SNK-developed Pocket Adventure, all other 2D or 2.5D Sonic games made since that title have been made by Dimps instead, and all of those titles were made strictly for handhelds (Sonic 4 the lone exception, and even then it was originally intended as a mobile game first and foremost).

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1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

Finally, the last presupposition I find with all of this is that, somehow, having 2 or 3 token play-styles would somehow split the fanbase. Aside from the fanbase already being fractured, the logic doesn't follow that consolidating Sonic's most successful game styles (Classic, Adventure, Boost) into 3 solid and polished sub-series is any different than what time-tested franchises like Mario and Zelda do - Mario has his 2D retro-revival games, the open-hubworld 3D style, and then the more linear 3D Land/3D World styles - that's 3. Zelda, meanwhile, has top-down 2D, full 3D, and the occasional motion control experiment - also 3. And for a while, Mega Man was rocking it with far too many to count, and still managed to do okay at the time. I don't see why Sonic is somehow excluded from this approach, especially considering how successful the Classics, Adventures and Boost games really were.

On the bit about Mario, I think it kinda has to be clarified in the context of Mario that there aren't really two types of 3D games. It's more that the mini-sandbox 3D playstyle of the earlier 3D titles over time did a gradual retool to the current Super Mario 3D series of games that are designed to play identical to the 2D titles. This is pretty evident in Galaxy games, which arguably bridge the gap between the two, with Galaxy had a fair amount of levels with a linear progression as well as the mini-sandbox levels; and levels in Galaxy 2 not only having a higher ratio of linear levels, but also (as discussed in this Game Maker's Toolkit video--it's a good watch btw, highly recommend taking a look at it) establishing the "4 Step" level design that the 3D series is built on. I think it's been said by some veteran Mario developers that they might return to the style of the older Mario games in the future, but we'll see how that fares.

Nothing I don't disagree with otherwise. Though I do note that if Sonic does get such a split into two or three styles, each style would arguably need its own team dedicated towards making those games. Nothing about Sonic Team or Dimps in their current states tells me they're interested in the Classic playstyle, so Sega --if they were interested in keeping the Classic playstyle alive-- either have to find or establish a new studio or division (in-house or outsourced) towards making that specific style of Sonic games.

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3 minutes ago, Inspector Gabe said:

Nothing about Sonic Team or Dimps in their current states tells me they're interested in the Classic playstyle, so Sega --if they were interested in keeping the Classic playstyle alive-- either have to find or establish a new studio or division (in-house or outsourced) towards making that specific style of Sonic games.

That is true NOW, however Dimps was the one who made the Advance trilogy. These games though very unique have stayed true to the Genesis gameplay thus most think are the true successors to Sonic 3 and Knuckles. So, for me, it's not that they are incapable, they defiantly are.... it's just that they chose not to do it which is frustrating at it's least. Frustrating in a sense that the Genesis gameplay is not even that hard to program into a 2D environment or even implement. 

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23 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

That is true NOW, however Dimps was the one who made the Advance trilogy. These games though very unique have stayed true to the Genesis gameplay thus most think are the true successors to Sonic 3 and Knuckles. So, for me, it's not that they are incapable, they defiantly are.... it's just that they chose not to do it which is frustrating at it's least. Frustrating in a sense that the Genesis gameplay is not even that hard to program into a 2D environment or even implement. 

Eh, I'd say only the first Advance was the only game that stuck to the classics in regards to both gameplay and level design. Advance 2's gameplay was still relatively close (and better than Advance 1 in some areas) but the level design was streamlined for the sake of emphasizing linear speed. Then Advance 3 jumped to the opposite end of the spectrum and had the levels be straight up schizophrenic in their structure, while the gameplay was also being retooled into something noticeably different. Compared to Advance 1 and 2, 3's controls are considerably laggy, and its physics are even floaty at times.

In terms of replicating the classic gameplay (in this context, regarding to both controls, physics, and level design), only Advance 1 and reportedly Pocket Adventure were relatively watertight to the Genesis games, and even then they were only fairly basic reincarnations. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is probably still the furthest the formula of the classic games have been pushed in terms of modes and features.

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