Detective SSMB & The Case of the Sonic 25th Anniversary "P.g. 100 is the best... food discussion started."

[WakanoBaka]

8 minutes ago, Hyp3hat said:

This personally would annoy the hell out of me - realistically, I can only afford one new games console and it's going to be a PS4 because I was drunk and preordered Shenmue 3  I'm generally broke, I walk to work, and don't enjoy the act of playing handheld games - they don't look or sound particularly great, even with the 3DS and such, and it's uncomfortable for me looking at such a tiny screen. I've barely touched the Advance and Rush games through emulators (and a romcart for the DS), but I prefer to sit back and play a game on my telly. 

Put it this way - If i was a huge Zelda fan, I'd be so mad at Nintendo for remastering OoT and Majora's Mask for the 3DS alone. I'd never play them.

Yeah, I see your point, through a consumer point, it's a pain in the ass.

But as a producers point, it's a fucking winwin deal.

[Hyp3hat]

1 hour ago, WakanoBaka said:

Yeah, I see your point, through a consumer point, it's a pain in the ass.

But as a producers point, it's a fucking winwin deal.

Is it though? Every major fan, and by extension what you see on Youtube (which is where a lot of de facto marketing happens for a game) is not wild about the 3DS versions of Lost World, Generations and Boom. As markets for these consoles shrink, the amount of people who pick up something like Sonic Generations 3DS just because it looks fun on a whim is going to shrink. It's not the same as it was when everybody bought their kid a Gameboy (except my parents, goddammit). 

This is more of a 'the games industry is going into the toilet' point rather than anything expressly Sonic related, mind.  

[Chris Knopps]

14 minutes ago, Hyp3hat said:

Is it though? Every major fan, and by extension what you see on Youtube (which is where a lot of de facto marketing happens for a game) is not wild about the 3DS versions of Lost World, Generations and Boom. As markets for these consoles shrink, the amount of people who pick up something like Sonic Generations 3DS just because it looks fun on a whim is going to shrink. It's not the same as it was when everybody bought their kid a Gameboy (except my parents, goddammit). 

This is more of a 'the games industry is going into the toilet' point rather than anything expressly Sonic related, mind.  

Not wild about them yet they sold fairly well, Shattered Crystal doing better than RoL if I'm not mistaken.

The markets there the same as it always has been, it hasn't shrunk save for the Sony side of things handheld wise, the issue is people are sick of handheld versions of console games and expect something unique to handhelds, not a copy/paste of consoles.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

4 hours ago, Hyp3hat said:

Yeah, 2D or 3D would be fine with me - but they'd have to commit to it fully. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting a Sonic game that's just One Thing. I really love the boost games, but the problem with them as Games is that it's half Boost and half something else - Be it Werehog, or Classic Sonic (which is what half of Colours' stages were, really). 

Now, maybe the Sonic Team that does the Boost games really have spent the 5 years since Generations working on a 100% boost game that takes advantage of PS4/Xbone tech to be insanely fast, but SEGA are broke as hell, so I really doubt it. 

Then again, a full 2D game (that actually plays and looks good, unlike Sonic 4 Ep 1) would be something special. But not with half of another game stapled to it. 

Personally I don't want a game that's just 1 thing the entire time, Number #1 way to bore me is offering no variety in a product. My opinion may be the opposite of many Sonic fans lately, but I really don’t want Sonic games super streamlined and basically turned into glorified phone games where you just repeat the same basic few gameplay elements from start to completion.

[Chris Knopps]

7 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Personally I don't want a game that's just 1 thing the entire time. Number #1 way to bore me is offering no variety in a product. My opinion may be the opposite of many Sonic fans lately, but I really don’t want Sonic games super streamlined and basically turned into glorified phone games where you just repeat the same basic few gameplay elements from start to completion.

Errr... That's about the 2D/3D merger debate, correct?

In which case, that's EXACTLY what we have by the constant use of merger titles in every release. 3D, then 2D, then 3D, then 2D, it's like an on and off switch gone haywire. Plus you've got the camera going here, then over there, then over here again, then over there...

Dunno, still all for a split between the two where we have 3D and 2D series.

Look at boost game speed runs, the camera struggles to switch back and forth to keep up with experts. You still see 2D in 3D and vice versa during the switch while your blasting forward. The transition period can be tricky. If not then certainly disorientating.

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Personally I don't want a game that's just 1 thing the entire time, Number #1 way to bore me is offering no variety in a product. My opinion may be the opposite of many Sonic fans lately, but I really don’t want Sonic games super streamlined and basically turned into glorified phone games where you just repeat the same basic few gameplay elements from start to completion.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that the games be streamlined down to the level of mobile games. I think the ideal is for the games to focus on one core concept and explore it as fully as possible.

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I don't think anyone's suggesting that the games be streamlined down to the level of mobile games. I think the ideal is for the games to focus on one core concept and explore it as fully as possible.

Eyyyy there ya go Diogenes, good on ya.

I think it gives the company the opportunity to finally fine tune and perfect the two simultaneously instead of focusing on both in every game where the game play in one part often awkwardly melts into the other. It's like putting, I dunno, ketchup in a bowl of cereal. Just doesn't work right. (in most cases, some have... unique tastes...)

With a game being developed fully 2D and a game being developed 3D, you have two separate projects each with their own distinctive focus and distance from the other.

[Hyp3hat]

Just now, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Personally I don't want a game that's just 1 thing the entire time. Number #1 way to bore me is offering no variety in a product. My opinion may be the opposite of many Sonic fans lately, but I really don’t want Sonic games super streamlined and basically turned into glorified phone games where you just repeat the same basic few gameplay elements from start to completion.

Day Stages in Unleashed/Gens = Sonic Dash? Is that what you think I'm suggesting?

Saying that you want 'variety in a product' in this instance means 'I want two games in my game', like Unleashed and Generations did with the Werehog and Classic Sonic. And as we've seen, this is not really a great way to approach making a video game. No-one plays the Knuckles stages in Adventure 1 or 2 for fun.

A game with one playstyle going throughout it? Is this so much to ask? No. Literally every other videogame ever made does this. Sonic Team are weird pioneers, in their way, because they asked players to be great at racing games and God of War at the same time. 

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Hyp3hat said:

Day Stages in Unleashed/Gens = Sonic Dash? Is that what you think I'm suggesting?

Saying that you want 'variety in a product' in this instance means 'I want two games in my game', like Unleashed and Generations did with the Werehog and Classic Sonic. And as we've seen, this is not really a great way to approach making a video game. No-one plays the Knuckles stages in Adventure 1 or 2 for fun.

A game with one playstyle going throughout it? Is this so much to ask? No. Literally every other videogame ever made does this. Sonic Team are weird pioneers, in their way, because they asked players to be great at racing games and God of War at the same time. 

Errr... I do in the first one... (Not so much the second, but the mech stages made up for not liking Knuckles stages in the sequel to me...)

[Lord-Dreamerz]

8 minutes ago, Hyp3hat said:

No-one plays the Knuckles stages in Adventure 1 or 2 for fun.

Maybe I do? I actually enjoyed playing each & every character in the adventure games and never once said "Oh man, this game would be so much better if everybody was a clone of Sonic!" Also I greatly enjoy other games that have big gameplay variety such as Sly cooper, FF7, LittleBigPlanet. To me those are the most fun types of games.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Maybe I do? I actually enjoyed playing each in every character in the adventure games and never once said "Oh man, this game would be so much better if everybody was a clone of Sonic!" Also I greatly enjoy other games that have big gameplay variety such as Sly cooper, FF7, LittleBigPlanet. To me those are the most fun types of games.

I can agree with this. I didn't like the treasure hunting in SA2, as I feel they did it better, and enjoyably, in SA1.

Also always loved the mech shooting... Like the fast paced action. Really proved the franchise could be fast/action packed in more ways than just running to the goal. Made you focus on everything around you, which running as Sonic, you pretty much just focus on an enemy in front of you, then the path forward.

(You don't/can't generally focus on anything in the boost games despite the surroundings being quite lovely)

[Hyp3hat]

Do y'all go back after you've beaten the game and play Pumpkin Hill, though? If you do, my entire view of the Sonic fanbase is going to shatter.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

1 minute ago, Hyp3hat said:

Do y'all go back after you've beaten the game and play Pumpkin Hill, though? If you do, my entire view of the Sonic fanbase is going to shatter.

When I play the adventure games I do. Been a long while, but I think I enjoyed that level pretty well.

[Enesephus]

3 minutes ago, Hyp3hat said:

Day Stages in Unleashed/Gens = Sonic Dash? Is that what you think I'm suggesting?

Saying that you want 'variety in a product' in this instance means 'I want two games in my game', like Unleashed and Generations did with the Werehog and Classic Sonic. And as we've seen, this is not really a great way to approach making a video game. No-one plays the Knuckles stages in Adventure 1 or 2 for fun.

Well, this is awkward...

Quote

A game with one playstyle going throughout it? Is this so much to ask? No. Literally every other videogame ever made does this. Sonic Team are weird pioneers, in their way, because they asked players to be great at racing games and God of War at the same time. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with Sonic having alternate playstyles in a single game; after all, some of my favorite video games, like the Ratchet and Clank series, have minigames that deviate from the main playstyle. If Ratchet can have flight sequences, racing sequences and arena challenges, then I see no reason why Sonic can't also dabble in other playstyles. The problem with Sonic is that 1) said other playstyles are sometimes too far removed from what Sonic is (beat-em up, for instance), and 2) the other playstyles tend to take over half the game, rather than the 10-20% they should.

1 minute ago, Hyp3hat said:

Do y'all go back after you've beaten the game and play Pumpkin Hill, though? If you do, my entire view of the Sonic fanbase is going to shatter.

In a fanbase with as many varying opinions as Sonic's, the idea of some people enjoying a stage like Pumpkin Hill is simply inconceivable to you?

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

Well, this is awkward...

I don't think there's anything wrong with Sonic having alternate playstyles in a single game; after all, some of my favorite video games, like the Ratchet and Clank series, have minigames that deviate from the main playstyle. If Ratchet can have flight sequences, racing sequences and arena challenges, then I see no reason why Sonic can't also dabble in other playstyles. The problem with Sonic is that 1) said other playstyles are sometimes too far removed from what Sonic is (beat-em up, for instance), and 2) the other playstyles tend to take over half the game, rather than the 10-20% they should.

In a fanbase with as many varying opinions as Sonic's, the idea of some people enjoying a stage like Pumpkin Hill is simply inconceivable to you?

-raises hand- I don't... I don't care for any of Knuckles or Rouge's stages in SA2, when it comes to him, SA1 is where it's at.

(I do dabble in Rouge's stages though just to snicker at dem jiggle physics...)

[Lord-Dreamerz]

7 minutes ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

Well, this is awkward...

I don't think there's anything wrong with Sonic having alternate playstyles in a single game; after all, some of my favorite video games, like the Ratchet and Clank series, have minigames that deviate from the main playstyle. If Ratchet can have flight sequences, racing sequences and arena challenges, then I see no reason why Sonic can't also dabble in other playstyles. The problem with Sonic is that 1) said other playstyles are sometimes too far removed from what Sonic is (beat-em up, for instance), and 2) the other playstyles tend to take over half the game, rather than the 10-20% they should.

In a fanbase with as many varying opinions as Sonic's, the idea of some people enjoying a stage like Pumpkin Hill is simply inconceivable to you?

Exactly. Alternate play-styles in a single game isn't a problem. It's when they are poorly mixed in with no flow with the rest of the game or are just poorly made in general is it a problem I'd say.

[Hyp3hat]

3 minutes ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

Ratchet and Clank series has minigames that deviate from the main playstyle. 

That's cool - I've never played Ratchet & Clank, but you expressly said minigames. Sonic Unleashed asks you to be great at God Of War style beat em ups to progress through the game, as well as a Sonic style of gameplay that it introduces. It's weird, incoherent game design.

10 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

When I play the adventure games I do. Been a long while, but I think I enjoyed that level pretty well.

Shut my mouth about Knuckles, I guess. 

[Chris Knopps]

12 minutes ago, Hyp3hat said:

That's cool - I've never played Ratchet & Clank, but you expressly said minigames. Sonic Unleashed asks you to be great at God Of War style beat em ups to progress through the game, as well as a Sonic style of gameplay that it introduces. It's weird, incoherent game design.

Being honest the werehog game play WAS a solid game play, just perhaps not so much for a Sonic game or, to be precise, Sonic himself. Maybe if Knuckles was in the game and those stages were his, who knows? Could be received just as questionably. But again, very solid game play, just not so much for Sonic.

[Darinian]

Adventure 2's Pumpkin Hill was the best level in that game so I played that for ages. Why would that be bad, I have no clue. Especially in the sonic community where everyone may like one level and the rest just the same

[Lord-Dreamerz]

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Being honest the werehog game play WAS a solid game play, just perhaps not so much for a Sonic game or, to be precise, Sonic himself. Maybe if Knuckles was in the game and those stages were his, who knows? Could be received just as questionably. But again, very solid game play, just not so much for Sonic.

I think the only things the werehog needed was quicker gameplay, AKA faster running & stuff. and for those tightrope sections to be removed or changed so they easier to stay on. Otherwise I thought it was pretty fun and even found the werehog cool for a one time gimmick.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

I think the only things the werehog needed was quicker gameplay, AKA faster running & stuff. and for those tightrope sections to be removed it changed so they easier to stay on. Otherwise I thought it was pretty fun and even found the werehog cool for a one time gimmick.

Ha ha... A faster werehog... I've seen the boost mods and that poor dork looks so hilarious. XD

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

The problem with most of the alternate playstyles was that they weren't fitting for a Sonic game. Sonic is supposed to be about speed and platforming. I really do like the werehog but the styles from Sonic Adventure 2 kinda sucked. Mostly because I really don't want to be slowed down by clunky machines or run around in circles looking for the master emerald. I want to get from point A to point B using unique abilities with speed mixed in if that makes any sense. 

[Sega DogTagz]

Meteor Herd > Pumpkin Hill

I will fight anyone who says otherwise. (both are great levels imo)

[Chris Knopps]

11 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

The problem with most of the alternate playstyles was that they weren't fitting for a Sonic game. Sonic is supposed to be about speed and platforming. I really do like the werehog but the styles from Sonic Adventure 2 kinda sucked. Mostly because I really don't want to be slowed down by clunky machines or run around in circles looking for the master emerald. I want to get from point A to point B using unique abilities with speed mixed in if that makes any sense. 

Actually they weren't fitting for Sonic himself, much like the werehog game play didn't fit Sonic albeit with a different design, it still didn't work well because it was still Sonic.

But used for other characters, it's a bit different because the mech shooting fit the brain power of Tails and Eggman and the treasure hunting fit Knuckles and Rouge, (even if done better in SA1...)

So while it's an expectation for Sonic himself to do the fast paced point a to b thing, it's not really the same case for other characters because they have unique characteristics and capabilities that Sonic does not that gives them wiggle room to have other game play styles.

Which is why I said perhaps with Knuckles or another brawling type character the werehog parts of Unleashed could have worked better.

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Which is why I said perhaps with Knuckles or another brawling type character the werehog parts of Unleashed could have worked better.

This wouldn't have changed anything, because the problem is actually that the werehog gameplay doesn't fit the Sonic series.