Detective SSMB & The Case of the Sonic 25th Anniversary "P.g. 100 is the best... food discussion started."

[Enesephus]

 

10 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Actually they weren't fitting for Sonic himself, much like the werehog game play didn't fit Sonic albeit with a different design, it still didn't work well because it was still Sonic.

But used for other characters, it's a bit different because the mech shooting fit the brain power of Tails and Eggman and the treasure hunting fit Knuckles and Rouge, (even if done better in SA1...)

So while it's an expectation for Sonic himself to do the fast paced point a to b thing, it's not really the same case for other characters because they have unique characteristics and capabilities that Sonic does not that gives them wiggle room to have other game play styles.

Which is why I said perhaps with Knuckles or another brawling type character the werehog parts of Unleashed could have worked better.

I still think Sonic Adventure 2's mech stages would have been infinitely more fun if Tails and Eggman weren't in those clunky mechs, but went through their stages (still shooting the crap out of robots) on foot. Every time I wound up in the Chao Garden with either one of those two, I found myself thinking, "Wow, I love the on-foot controls for these guys. Why the frick can't they control like this in the stages?"

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

This wouldn't have changed anything, because the problem is actually that the werehog gameplay doesn't fit the Sonic series.

That I'm against and bring up the argument of "other characters needn't be Sonic clones" and whatnot.

Maybe in 2D games sure, but I'd like more variety, more uniqueness to the cast in 3D titles.

It's like Runners and DASH basically when multiple characters play exactly like Sonic, gets very "meh" after a short time.

[Diogenes]

If you want variety, buy different games. One series isn't supposed to serve all your needs.

[Enesephus]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

That I'm against and bring up the argument of "other characters needn't be Sonic clones" and whatnot.

Maybe in 2D games sure, but I'd like more variety, more uniqueness to the cast in 3D titles.

It's like Runners and DASH basically when multiple characters p[lay exactly like Sonic, gets very "meh" after a short time.

Well, they shouldn't play exactly like Sonic, I definitely agree there, but they should still at least be fast. I mean, they may not be Sonic, but they are in a game called "Sonic," implying speed.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Of course I don't want it to be like Sonic Dash where everyone plays EXACTLY the game, but I want more of a Sonic Advance feel that while everyone has speed, I want everyone to have their own unique ability (and let Sonic keep his). Pretty much give everyone like what Amy had.... her own signature gameplay yet she was still fast. 

[Lord-Dreamerz]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

This wouldn't have changed anything, because the problem is actually that the werehog gameplay doesn't fit the Sonic series.

I disagree. just because the focus of the games is often about the speedy gameplay doesn't mean it's wrong to have other things too. I say alternate play-styles fits the series just fine.

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If you want variety, buy different games. One series isn't supposed to serve all your needs.

Wouldn't the point be to ATTRACT people to the franchise? Not just... Tell them to buy into the guy next door?

And... i can agree with that Hyper, that's why I said, again. Knuckles in the Werehog stages, made a bit faster, and I think it would have fit better.

Same core concept, just, you know, slower brawler character, brawling away to the goal. Plus seeing Knuckles to acrobatics would have been cool.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Well.... this isn't Burger King... you can't have it your way. Sonic is it's own type of platformer and had it's core gameplay. Everything in the game must abide by it. 

[Enesephus]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If you want variety, buy different games. One series isn't supposed to serve all your needs.

Well, certainly not all of them, but, good Lord, there's a reason I don't play Sonic 2 anymore, yet still keep coming back to Sonic 3, Unleashed and the Adventure games.

[Chris Knopps]

I... Think I'm just gonna stroll away from the rest of this one and wait for the next topic.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If you want variety, buy different games. One series isn't supposed to serve all your needs.

That's one of the worse excuses I hear sometimes. Who are you to say how we should enjoy our games? Honestly I find this "games should be 1 thing" mindset is what hurting games from being epic nowadays. It's boring and I don't want to play those overly simple games.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

No one is telling you how you should enjoy the games. We're kinda saying that Sonic was built to be a specifc type of series... so it shouldn't be an all around type of game. If it's labeled a speed/platforming series then I want the games for that series to be speed/platforming. It's like making a Call of Duty game with no weapons and shooting.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

I disagree. just because the focus of the games is often about the speedy gameplay doesn't mean it's wrong to have other things too. I say alternate play-styles fits the series just fine.

 

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Wouldn't the point be to ATTRACT people to the franchise? Not just... Tell them to buy into the guy next door?

So are we just going to pretend like 1998-2006 didn't happen, and that having a bunch of characters that didn't play like Sonic didn't drive people away from the series?

Serious question, do y'all treat every other series you play like this? Do you scoff at Mario games for not giving Luigi his Luigi's Mansion gameplay and Toad his Captain Toad gameplay, because Mario gameplay is just too boring on its own?

1 minute ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

That's one of the worse excuses I hear sometimes. Who are you to say how we should enjoy our games? Honestly I find this "games should be 1 thing" mindset is what hurting games from being epic nowadays. It's boring and I don't want to play those overly simple games.

What you're asking for gets you simple games, because they're forced to split development across multiple gameplay styles, meaning none of them are as fleshed out as they could be.

[Enesephus]

3 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

No one is telling you how you should enjoy the games. We're kinda saying that Sonic was built to be a specifc type of series... so it shouldn't be an all around type of game. If it's labeled a speed/platforming series then I want the games for that series to be speed/platforming. It's like making a Call of Duty game with no weapons and shooting.

Well, I'm sure no one is advocating you take all the speed out of Sonic.

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What you're asking for gets you simple games, because they're forced to split development across multiple gameplay styles, meaning none of them are as fleshed out as they could be.

In the hands of competent developers, sure they could be.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Diogenes said:

So are we just going to pretend like 1998-2006 didn't happen, and that having a bunch of characters that didn't play like Sonic didn't drive people away from the series?

That's... Fanning waaaaaaaaay too many flames...

Granted it chased away the Genesis timeline fans, but the amount is debatable. Asides them, I cannot say those games did. Only 06, and still an impressive portion has remained and seems to be returning thanks to Webber, however slight the progress may gradually be...

[Lord-Dreamerz]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 

So are we just going to pretend like 1998-2006 didn't happen, and that having a bunch of characters that didn't play like Sonic didn't drive people away from the series?

Serious question, do y'all treat every other series you play like this? Do you scoff at Mario games for not giving Luigi his Luigi's Mansion gameplay and Toad his Captain Toad gameplay, because Mario gameplay is just too boring on its own?

What you're asking for gets you simple games, because they're forced to split development across multiple gameplay styles, meaning none of them are as fleshed out as they could be.

having a bunch of characters didn't drive away me from the series. And that wasn't the reason other people left. it was low quality in general because of the games like Sonic-06 is why. And the adventure games didn't make folk leave, they are still among the more popular Sonic titles for a reason.

And yes I do treat other series that way, I like a lot of variety, And I refuse to play a Mario game often if he is the only playable character.

A game full of smaller games all themed in the same world and stories is way more fun to me then playing a game that does only 1 thing greatly or playing other games that have nothing to do with each other and also focus on their 1 thing to much.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

So basically you don't care if the character plays like crap or not as long as you get the play as the character?

[Chris Knopps]

43 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

So basically you don't care if the character plays like crap or not as long as you get the play as the character?

The mech game play was solid, the same as the werehog game play. (Treasure hunting more solid in SA1)

The game play was never crap when changed for other characters, not even werehog really. The SA and SA2 game plays were widely accepted and enjoyed until recent years post famous lets players saying its crap and badly aged...

06 sparked debates, but the hate only began when people started copying and pasting lets players complaints and critics played ports after changing their mindsets to "solo-sonic with old school charm or bust" in all their reviews for the sake of click bait mostly.

People seem to follow IGN's words and critics revolving the Adventure games more than their own religions. An "IGN/this popular person says so and I share the same feeling so therefore I must say the same thing as them and blow it way out of the water in peoples faces because har har they agree with me" kind of thing basically. (Despite original game scores being great because back then solo-sonic and nostalgia pandering wasn't the only thing on critics minds back then)

[Lord-Dreamerz]

9 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

So basically you don't care if the character plays like crap or not as long as you get the play as the character?

That’s nonsense, I prefer the best of both worlds. And personally I thought the whole cast in the adventure games all played fine even if not prefect. Just because a few games like Sonic-06 handled it badly doesn't mean the concept altogether sucks.

[Tails spin]

1 hour ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

And yes I do treat other series that way, I like a lot of variety, And I refuse to play a Mario game often if he is the only playable character

So how do you like Luigi who plays exactly like Mario only with slippery controls in galaxy. Or the toads in the nsmb series who show no difference to Mario's gameplay?

[azoo]

I think it says a lot for people to not only believe that the Sonic games without different genres within it are too simple, but also that apparently these characters couldn't be interesting if they tried to fit a similar mold to the base gameplay.

Look, I enjoyed Knuckles and Rouge's treasure hunting in SA2, Gamma's shooting stages in SA1, and Werehog's brawler gameplay. There were definitely parts that I thought were well-handled and fun to play, no doubt. But I'm not gonna sugarcoat it either: they (at least in their current state) don't fit standard Sonic gameplay for various reasons, when in all honesty they should've.

I think what everyone gets caught up on is thinking that means the game should just play like Sonic with one different move or whatever, and that a lot of the characters that aren't specifically speed-oriented don't really fit that mold too well (ESPECIALLY if the gameplay is boost, which is part of why that game style is a dead end in regards to flexible mechanics).

But the thing is (at least for classic/Adventure Sonic/Advance gameplay, which is the one I find easiest to work with here), the only major things a character has to abide to is:

•  Basic, tightly controlled gameplay (run, jump, roll and/or attack)
•  A decent running speed and physics-centric movement
•  Slopey platformy levels that reward you with speed for skillful platforming and environment usage
•  Heading towards a goal from A to B

That's it, really. No, really.

And I mean, that should really be fun on it's own tbh, but you could obviously flavor that up and make it still fit that sort of 'gameplay twist' without breaking the rules. I've mentioned before that Knuckles could easily have stages based around treasure hunting that still follow these above rules and I think it'd fit in just fine (imagine flowy levels with brief more open areas where the radar starts beeping quicker and leads you to look for the emerdood, and then after you get it you keep going until the end where the third piece is at).

Of course I'm just babblin' and regurgitating things I've said before but I'm having fun proving my point I guess. There's room for the game to breathe and give characters their own identity, whether that means twisting to alternate takes on the levels or just doing it like Sonic. Soooo, yeah idk. I don't see why it'd be boring or uninteresting.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

1 hour ago, Tails spin said:

So how do you like Luigi who plays exactly like Mario only with slippery controls in galaxy. Or the toads in the nsmb series who show no difference to Mario's gameplay?

I don't. I only play a Mario game if Peach/Rosalina or Bowser are playable. =P

[Badnik Mechanic]

Detective SSMB & The Case of the Missing Modern Sonic.

Full story here: http://www.sonicstadium.org/2016/02/no-modern-sonic-licensing-rights-to-be-issued-in-2016/

Initially it reads like there is no longer a modern Sonic license, but the interview is about the 25th anniversary so it might just be a year thing.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

3 hours ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

That’s nonsense, I prefer the best of both worlds. And personally I thought the whole cast in the adventure games all played fine even if not prefect. Just because a few games like Sonic-06 handled it badly doesn't mean the concept altogether sucks.

I asked because you did say you only play games when a certain character is playable but at least your not blind when it comes to sucky gameplay. 

[Lord-Dreamerz]

12 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

Detective SSMB & The Case of the Missing Modern Sonic.

Full story here: http://www.sonicstadium.org/2016/02/no-modern-sonic-licensing-rights-to-be-issued-in-2016/

Initially it reads like there is no longer a modern Sonic license, but the interview is about the 25th anniversary so it might just be a year thing.

I hope everybody won't start assuming modern Sonic is going to be removed from the series and permanently replaced again... Haha, There was so much of that fear when Boom was first revealed. :U