What do you think of Sonic's friends..?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's been an issue before, too. Problems with other characters being playable can be traced back to Sonic Adventure.

...yes?

However the problem is not that the characters replayable it's how they were playable

[shdowhunt60]

12 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Even if the characters aren't going to be playable ever again (bullshit), their absence doesn't make sense from a contextual angle. Either the world is being threatened or Eggman is preparing plans in plain view that would warrant investigating by any sane animal with super-powers, or even fucking GUN at this point, but apparently these guys don't care anymore? Like, when Dark Gaia was running around were Rouge and Shadow sipping martinis on a beach because they had taken leave and were damn sure nothing was going to put them back on duty until their days ran out? Like, what?

I've long reconciled that all the interviews of the Unleashed dev saying that they put a lot of thought into the lore aspect of Unleashed as complete bullshit. So yeah, there's that.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

I'm one of those people that doesn't mind Solo-Sonic games as long as they're fun (heck, Unleashed and Colors are my favorite Sonic games), but I would really like to see multiple playable characters come back. 

However, I'm perfectly happy with those characters simply being Tails, Knuckles and Amy. As for the others, playable or not, for the most part I could take them or leave them. I love Shadow and I love Vector, and to see one of them return would be greeted by a, "Yay, X is back!" from me, but if they don't return, I've got other games and media to enjoy them in. If there's an in-story reason to bring a character back, by all means bring said character back! If not, though, I'm happy as long as I've got the Core Four, or at least some of them.

The only other media I own that I can play as my favorites in is Sonic Heroes. I love Heroes but playing it over and over again because I can't get at least one game to come out in the future that allows me to do it again is a little saddening.

At this point, I'd be satisfied if I just got one game that let me play as them all again. I'd opt for it to be done in a way that made them relevent and fun of course but so long as it happened at least once, I'd be all set for at least another decade long wait.

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I've long reconciled that all the interviews of the Unleashed dev saying that they put a lot of thought into the lore aspect of Unleashed as complete bullshit. So yeah, there's that.

I don't ever remember them talking about any lore except perhaps outside of direct story references with the Gaias and whatnot. Regardless, while it was annoying in Unleashed, you could get over it as a refresher from past games with loaded casts. But the fact that it's now a repeating design decision just draws more attention to how fucking dumb it is.

[shdowhunt60]

Lore refers to more than just pantheons and prophesies (and even then, Unleashed did nothing special in that regard). It refers to the general construction of the universe and the characters that resides within it. I said in the Unpopular opinions thread that Unleashed puts a ton of thought towards how it's human NPC's fit together, but doesn't put any thought into how Sonic and company fit into this world, and that's why I'm unimpressed with it.

That's veering off-topic though. The general point is, is that Sonic Team doesn't put any thought into how it's side-cast works.

[Enesephus]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Chaotix said:

The only other media I own that I can play as my favorites in is Sonic Heroes. I love Heroes but playing it over and over again because I can't get at least one game to come out in the future that allows me to do it again is a little saddening.

At this point, I'd be satisfied if I just got one game that let me play as them all again. I'd opt for it to be done in a way that made them relevent and fun of course but so long as it happened at least once, I'd be all set for at least another decade long wait.

Eh, I see your point regarding them, and I would love to see them return at some point. As far as the rest of the expanded cast goes, though, I just can't feel too strongly about their returns one way or the other.

While on the subject of the Chaotix, though, how would you feel about a spinoff chronicling their own adventures? I know it'll never happen, but I personally always thought they were too strong to simply be extras in Sonic's series, and I can't really think of any ways to work them into any future mainline Sonic games, anyway (as much as I love them in Heroes, I don't think they were even necessary in that game).

[Dee Dude]

Ok... Diogenes made me realize that I didn't do my research. I forgot that people complained about alternate gameplay styles and Mario titles such as Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine....

Gosh I'm such a moron.

I still think it's idiotic that the other characters never got the respect they deserved back then.

I recognize Knuckles as the Master Emerald guardian, I recognize Shadow as the Ultimate Lifeform, I recognize Rouge as a GUN spy, I recognize the Chaotix as detectives,etc

NOT as "Sonic's Shitty Friends"

Bullcrap.

[Diogenes]

33 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Even if the characters aren't going to be playable ever again (bullshit), their absence doesn't make sense from a contextual angle. Either the world is being threatened or Eggman is preparing plans in plain view that would warrant investigating by any sane animal with super-powers, or even fucking GUN at this point, but apparently these guys don't care anymore? Like, when Dark Gaia was running around were Rouge and Shadow sipping martinis on a beach because they had taken leave and were damn sure nothing was going to put them back on duty until their days ran out? Like, what?

I don't find this line of reasoning compelling because you don't write good stories by simulating a universe and writing down whatever it produces. Stories are artificial, the characters that get involved should be ones with direct relevance and meaning to it, not any able-bodied hero who should "logically" jump in and fight. Unleashed's cast is limited because the bulk of the story is about Sonic and Chip, with a few other characters in supporting roles. Adding a bunch of other characters who don't meaningfully tie into Sonic and Chip's growing friendship or their individual issues risks diluting the story.

27 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

However the problem is not that the characters replayable it's how they were playable

True, but when the characters have more often than not been unpleasant to play as, it's not unreasonable to start feeling like their inclusion is a gamble that's isn't worth taking.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

Eh, I see your point regarding them, and I would love to see them return at some point. As far as the rest of the expanded cast goes, though, I just can't feel too strongly about their returns one way or the other.

While on the subject of the Chaotix, though, how would you feel about a spinoff chronicling their own adventures? I know it'll never happen, but I personally always thought they were too strong to simply be extras in Sonic's series, and I can't really think of any ways to work them into any future mainline Sonic games, anyway (as much as I love them in Heroes, I don't think they were even necessary in that game).

The idea sounds great. It's one I've always contemplated as well. A E for Everyone detective game with colorful talking animals sounds like it has the chops to be a huge success, especially given how creatively misfit and strange these three are compared to everyone else. It probably has less chance of success under the hood of SEGA but the idea is a fascinating thing to contemplate.

Of course, I'll have to disagree with you on their placement in Heroes and the way they could work into future mainline Sonic games though. When it comes to Heroes, it felt like their story was one of the few that could have easily provided more insight behind the workings of Metal Sonic's plan (with the chao hunting linking back to Metal Sonic's desire for Chaos data and the capsule destruction hinting towards an espionage like mission to destroy stray robot Shadows that Metal Sonic hadn't yet acquired). By the end of it, it seemed like they had more direct relevance then some of the other teams. Chocola and Froggy was where Metal Sonic got most of his Chaos Data from but their hunt to retrieve them didn't really warrant their inclusion AS much in my opinion. And Shadow's story was basically his own thing. A tale of discovery for him, lust for Rouge, and revenge for Omega. Still interesting, but it's definitely a lot more personal then directly tied to the plot like I felt the Chaotix were.

As for future titles, I've spent so many years brainstorming different avenues they could easily go for in order for it to happen that it becomes ever more frustrating that nothing continues to be done. The comics have even managed it a few times. So long as the characters have a unique angle to work off of their potential to work within any given narrative is always there. It really isn't hard to find use for detectives. Now, someone who doesn't have much of a developmental angle would be a lot harder. Cream, for example, doesn't have any personal goal or position she holds within the franchise. She's just a cute little girl whose friends with Amy. I suppose there's always uses you can find for someone with a blank slate like that but with a series like this where the cast is so large, why bother when you can just use people who have something to work with? Rouge is a jewel thief and a part-time G.U.N agent and a spy and an anti-hero who dabbles in both sides with a connection to Shadow, the government, Knuckles, the Master Emerald, and Eggman that can easily be exploited for anything they wanted to do. And she's also a club owner apparently. But I suppose it's also a matter of whose more popular as well.

Blaze is a princess from an alternate dimension and Silver's a hedgehog from the future. Needless to say they're probably also extremely hard to fit into stories because their positions are so strictly tied towards extremely specific situations. But as we've seen before, the people in charge don't really care about that and will happily screw over Blaze's dimension and write as many time travel plots as they need to in order to shoe horn them in. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 

True, but when the characters have more often than not been unpleasant to play as, it's not unreasonable to start feeling like their inclusion is a gamble that's isn't worth taking.

Which I totally understand this reasoning. I just think that in order for them to successfully juggle five chain saws in a row they should be able to implement them properly if you know what I mean

[Nepenthe]

12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I don't find this line of reasoning compelling because you don't write good stories by simulating a universe and writing down whatever it produces. Stories are artificial, the characters that get involved should be ones with direct relevance and meaning to it, not any able-bodied hero who should "logically" jump in and fight. Unleashed's cast is limited because the bulk of the story is about Sonic and Chip, with a few other characters in supporting roles. Adding a bunch of other characters who don't meaningfully tie into Sonic and Chip's growing friendship or their individual issues risks diluting the story.

Compelling stories can be written a host of ways, including asking the question about what is reasonable to happen within a simulated universe. However, I don't know why you pared up my point to include universal considerations. After all, the cast we know is possibly not the only set of animals in the entire world that could prove useful in a world-threatening situation, but I'm not asking nor even implying that Sega needs add everyone back in plus the abandoned characters plus about 10,000 extra motherfuckers every time this happens.

My threshold for reasonable is simply based on context of almost every previous game in the series regardless of the playable status of the characters therein. We should at least be privy to knowing that a few other characters are indeed doing something under such circumstances whether or not we see them, because for them not to implies they either don't give a shit or are unreasonably tied up, and neither makes sense. Hell, people were complaining and still to this day complain that Tails and Amy basically did fuck all in Unleashed. The active nature and self-preservation instinct is simply the kind of cast that Sega has created for better or worse.

Regardless, Unleashed is ironically the only game in recent times that had far greater potential to expand the scope of its conflict due to the use of hubworlds. And let me be clear that I'm not asking for cut scenes that have nothing to do with the main thrust of the story if the above is to be considered. But are we really going to sit here and say that populating the hubs with NPCs that just so happened to be other Sonic characters aside from Tails and Amy would have been a shitty idea that diluted the story?

[Enesephus]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Chaotix said:

The idea sounds great. It's one I've always contemplated as well. A E for Everyone detective game with colorful talking animals sounds like it has the chops to be a huge success, especially given how creatively misfit and strange these three are compared to everyone else. It probably has less chance of success under the hood of SEGA but the idea is a fascinating thing to contemplate.

Of course, I'll have to disagree with you on their placement in Heroes and the way they could work into future mainline Sonic games though. When it comes to Heroes, it felt like their story was one of the few that could have easily provided more insight behind the workings of Metal Sonic's plan (with the chao hunting linking back to Metal Sonic's desire for Chaos data and the capsule destruction hinting towards an espionage like mission to destroy stray robot Shadows that Metal Sonic hadn't yet acquired). By the end of it, it seemed like they had more direct relevance then some of the other teams. Chocola and Froggy was where Metal Sonic got most of his Chaos Data from but their hunt to retrieve them didn't really warrant their inclusion AS much in my opinion. And Shadow's story was basically his own thing. A tale of discovery for him, lust for Rouge, and revenge for Omega. Still interesting, but it's definitely a lot more personal then directly tied to the plot like I felt the Chaotix were.

As for future titles, I've spent so many years brainstorming different avenues they could easily go for in order for it to happen that it becomes ever more frustrating that nothing continues to be done. The comics have even managed it a few times. So long as the characters have a unique angle to work off of their potential to work within any given narrative is always there. It really isn't hard to find use for detectives. Now, someone who doesn't have much of a developmental angle would be a lot harder. Cream, for example, doesn't have any personal goal or position she holds within the franchise. She's just a cute little girl whose friends with Amy. I suppose there's always uses you can find for someone with a blank slate like that but with a series like this where the cast is so large, why bother when you can just use people who have something to work with? Rouge is a jewel thief and a part-time G.U.N agent and a spy and an anti-hero who dabbles in both sides with a connection to Shadow, the government, Knuckles, the Master Emerald, and Eggman that can easily be exploited for anything they wanted to do. And she's also a club owner apparently. But I suppose it's also a matter of whose more popular as well.

Blaze is a princess from an alternate dimension and Silver's a hedgehog from the future. Needless to say they're probably also extremely hard to fit into stories because their positions are so strictly tied towards extremely specific situations. But as we've seen before, the people in charge don't really care about that and will happily screw over Blaze's dimension and write as many time travel plots as they need to in order to shoe horn them in. 

I get what you're saying about Heroes, but I don't think Metal Sonic even needed to be there. It literally feels like they just put him there to continue the "monster of the week" thing from Adventure 1 and 2, and if Metal's unneeded, technically so are the Chaotix. Now, if Metal had played a larger role in the story, the Chaotix would have also had more of a point, but that's not the game we got. Still, in the game as it is, they're definitely more relevant as characters than Team's Rose or Dark.

As for future games, I feel the problem with using the Chaotix is that they don't really have a connection with any of the main cast. Cream is Amy's friend, Shadow's Sonic's rival, Rouge is Knux's rival and a treasure hunter, etc. I feel this makes them easier to write into Sonic's stories. The Chaotix, on the other hand, pretty much just do their own thing with no connection to Sonic and little crossover. I suppose they could be in a future Sonic game if you established some kind of connection between them and Sonic (or someone connected to Sonic), but I think it would be better to just give them their own spinoff.

[shdowhunt60]

If anything that would've added some much needed gravity to the situation. I mean, what communicates "this shit's serious" more than running into Team Dark and the Chaotix that are doing there thing to help resolve the crisis.

I would argue that in Unleashed's case also, that there isn't much of a story to dilute in the first place. The hours worth of cutscenes between the intro and the climax have little else other than boring end-of-the-world exposition and buddy-buddy scenes between instant-best-friends Sonic and Chip.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 minute ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

I get what you're saying about Heroes, but I don't think Metal Sonic even needed to be there. It literally feels like they just put him there to continue the "monster of the week" thing from Adventure 1 and 2, and if Metal's unneeded, technically so are the Chaotix. Now, if Metal had played a larger role in the story, the Chaotix would have also had more of a point, but that's not the game we got. Still, in the game as it is, they're definitely more relevant as characters than Team's Rose or Dark.

As for future games, I feel the problem with using the Chaotix is that they don't really have a connection with any of the main cast. Cream is Amy's friend, Shadow's Sonic's rival, Rouge is Knux's rival and a treasure hunter, etc. I feel this makes them easier to write into Sonic's stories. The Chaotix, on the other hand, pretty much just do their own thing with no connection to Sonic and little crossover. I suppose they could be in a future Sonic game if you established some kind of connection between them and Sonic (or someone connected to Sonic), but I think it would be better to just give them their own spinoff.

Yeah, there's not much you can do with them in terms of story to where they are better off in their own game and given their own cast of characters or just completely written off in my opinion. Same with Big the Cat which is why he's not going to be in the games anymore. 

[Enesephus]

2 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

Yeah, there's not much you can do with them in terms of story to where they are better off in their own game and given their own cast of characters or just completely written off in my opinion. Same with Big the Cat which is why he's not going to be in the games anymore. 

Well, Big is at least good for funny cameos during stages.

[Nepenthe]

I'm not sure how you can say Metal is unneeded in Heroes since he basically orchestrated just about every event in the game except for saving Shadow and putting him in the tank. Remember: He literally gained sentience, kidnapped Eggman and locked him up, then pretended to be him to lure the cast into situations where he could steal their powers. That is actually kind of badass now that I spelled it out (good job Game Metal, you finally impressed me.) More elaboration was definitely needed, and the transformation is basically a slap in the face to his reason for existing, but if you took Metal out you would have to rewrite quite a bit of the game in a sense.

[Enesephus]

5 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I'm not sure how you can say Metal is unneeded in Heroes since he basically orchestrated just about every event in the game except for saving Shadow and putting him in the tank. Remember: He literally gained sentience, kidnapped Eggman and locked him up, then pretended to be him to lure the cast into situations where he could steal their powers. That is actually kind of badass now that I spelled it out (good job Game Metal, you finally impressed me.) More elaboration was definitely needed, and the transformation is basically a slap in the face to his reason for existing, but if you took Metal out you would have to rewrite quite a bit of the game in a sense.

I dunno, even with that, it just feels like his presence came out of nowhere and was totally unneeded. Yeah, they drop hints that there's something going on behind the scenes, but I feel like the game could have easily had Eggman as the main villain.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

I get what you're saying about Heroes, but I don't think Metal Sonic even needed to be there. It literally feels like they just put him there to continue the "monster of the week" thing from Adventure 1 and 2, and if Metal's unneeded, technically so are the Chaotix. Now, if Metal had played a larger role in the story, the Chaotix would have also had more of a point, but that's not the game we got. Still, in the game as it is, they're definitely more relevant as characters than Team's Rose or Dark.

As for future games, I feel the problem with using the Chaotix is that they don't really have a connection with any of the main cast. Cream is Amy's friend, Shadow's Sonic's rival, Rouge is Knux's rival and a treasure hunter, etc. I feel this makes them easier to write into Sonic's stories. The Chaotix, on the other hand, pretty much just do their own thing with no connection to Sonic and little crossover. I suppose they could be in a future Sonic game if you established some kind of connection between them and Sonic (or someone connected to Sonic), but I think it would be better to just give them their own spinoff.

I can't say I agree with that either. Metal Sonic's the main driving point of the story as throughout it the multitude of Eggmans we were fighting we all fakes in disguise. The set-up is that Metal Sonic hijacked Eggman's operation to make himself stronger and it pushes itself as a revenge-rivalry story with a bit of an ensuing mystery behind it. I do agree, that the plot points within it, however, were not given the proper expansion and handling it needed to make all of that shine through better. Heroes' set-up comes off as extremely simple and thinly vailed due to the way they decided to showcase the story. As such, instead of feeling like what it actually is, it comes off as a collection of levels were four teams go against Eggman and then fight Metal Sonic at the end. The narrative wasn't written or structured in the best way to support what it was actually about because they took to simplifying the cutscenes way more then they should have. Taking what it's actually about out of that context makes for something that had a higher amount of potential to be worked around with. If the story hadn't been about this and instead Metal Sonic had just shown up at the end, out of nowhere, with no hints, motive, set-up, or previous build-up, then I'd agree with your sentiment more. Of course, I suppose that doesn't keep it from falling into the "Monster of the Week" theme despite it just being a giant robot.

As for your other point, The Chaotix have managed to have a direct connection to the proceedings without being directly connected to the main cast before though, which is something I've always admired about them. The Heroes fiasco is one such situation that endeared me to them as the undercover mercenary type deal that has problems from behind the scenes being solved to help drive the narrative home and stands as an excellent use of their inclusion. Shadow the Hedgehog had a much more subtle way of doing it by having their subplot scattered throughout different levels within the game. Shadow coming across them trying to hack into Eggman's computer to extract information about the Ark coupled with the disks Charmy gathered on Prison Island then being taken to the computer room on the Ark in the Cosmic Fall level worked them to their advantage really well too. And it ended with a bit of an admittedly small payoff when Charmy activated the computer monitor that simply showed Shadow a hidden video. True, the video was what motivated him to stand on his feet again and it was also what revealed that the Eclipse Cannon was built specifically to blow up the Black Comet but it mostly just highlights that so much more could have been done with the idea.

Other media, such as the Handheld Olympic Games had them scattered about collecting clues on their own solo missions to provide context for what was going on and even dabbled a bit into a few character moments for them. As secondary characters, I feel that's the best way to make use of what they could provide for the story. They'll never be the main headliners but so long as they have a strong and true contribution and personalities that are interesting enough, that's really all you need for it to work. That said, I'm not at all opposed to a spinoff but there's ways to easily make it work here as well. Having Cream be Amy's best friend feels more like an artificial way to easily extend her use to the cast to me. In the end it doesn't really do much but have another person around. I'm still, as a result, going to get the feeling that the role could have been used by someone who had something to contribute aside from being just another second friend. 

[Lord-Dreamerz]

1 minute ago, Hyper Enesephus said:

I dunno, even with that, it just feels like his presence came out of nowhere and was totally unneeded. Yeah, they drop hints that there's something going on behind the scenes, but I feel like the game could have easily had Eggman as the main villain.

Why does it matter if it was needed or not? I found Metal-Sonic as the main villein to be very cool! ... Even if I didn't like his Neo form design or them turning him into a big dragon thing near the end. Anyways Eggman doesn't need to be the main badguy every game.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I don't know about you, but I don't want characters to show up just to show up. 

[Ripe]

Sigh, this nonsense again.

I don't care how many characters are in the story as long as they have a reason to be there which makes sense in the story. And what is wrong with having large cast of character if they are used well. Yeah, that is a problem with this situation, the fact that how underdeveloped some of the characters are. Ironically, I think there has been even less development since this whole classic cast pandering started.

But I would personally like to see those other characters do something else than just being Sonic cheerleaders like they were in Generation (honestly, the way some characters acted was just so out-of character in that game) and maybe flesh out them more. But then again, SEGA can't even flesh out Sonic so I guess that it is a pipe dream.

And for all of those who bitch about how Sonic should be the only playable character, remember that the three characters were quite important part of S3&K, the game that you deem as "best Sonic game ever ".

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Mikyeong said:

Yeah, there's not much you can do with them in terms of story to where they are better off in their own game and given their own cast of characters or just completely written off in my opinion. Same with Big the Cat which is why he's not going to be in the games anymore. 

I feel this is intensely untrue. But I already explained why in the post above. I feel it's more a lack of forethought into what makes them work within a narrative more then anything at this point. The way they've worked before could very easily be capitalized upon for future appearances. They've got a position and angle to them that works. It just needs to be used to it's advantage. And before it has but now we're in a position where they won't use the strengths of any character to their advantage and it sucks.

[shdowhunt60]

6 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

I don't know about you, but I don't want characters to show up just to show up. 

Nobody does. This is a strawman.

[Enesephus]

Just now, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Why does it matter if it was needed or not? I found Metal-Sonic as the main villein to be very cool! ... Even if I didn't like his Neo form design or them turning him into a big dragon thing near the end. Anyways Eggman doesn't need to be the main badguy every game.

You're right, he doesn't, but he was already not the main villain in the Adventure titles, and Heroes would have been the perfect time to give him his role as main bad guy again.

As for you, Dr. Chaotix, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

As for  the whole "Metal wasn't unnecessary in Heroes because he orchestrated the whole thing" argument, I would agree if that was fleshed out, and if he really did anything in Sonic's story, the main story of the game. Sonic's story, the whole way through, felt like a "Sonic vs. Eggman" plot, and excluding Metal's tiny cameo after the fourth boss, it didn't feel to me like there was anything bigger going on, unlike in Adventure, Adventure 2, or even freakin' Sonic '06. Same goes for Team Dark's story, which just feels like it's just setting up for a certain game from 2005. Metal has more to do with the Rose and Chaotix stories, but I always felt like those stories, along with Team Dark's, honestly, were unneeded. They just felt like they were there purely to make some fans of those characters happy, as well as to set up the Metal Sonic twist. 

If there were more crossover between all the stories, making them feel more like they all had something to do with one another, if Metal had more to do with Sonic and Shadow's plots, and if there were just more hints that there was something bigger going on, then I would agree that Metal Sonic, and, by extension, the other characters, had a reason to be there, but the game's story as is just feels like a circle of unneeded characters and "plots."

Basically, Heroes' story was half-assed, resulting in everything about its story feeling unnecessary, beyond Team Sonic and Eggman, at least to me.

[Nepenthe]

Not that characters showing up for no reason is a bad thing in light of the way certain characters already getting away with it with protagonist immunity and also the possibility of reskins and multiplayer. Tails would've been a great addition to Colors' arcade. Better than multicolored Sonics at least.