Big Red Button finally break their silence

[Badnik Mechanic]

Figured this was strong enough to justify it's own topic, but if not feel free to merge.

Big Red Button have finally broken their silence regarding Rise of Lyric and their future/past projects.

http://www.polygon.com/features/2016/2/9/10939924/big-red-button-sonic-boom-rise-of-lyric

On the mobile so can't post too many details. But they talk about the design process, how  Rafei was loosing sleep a year before release, how he studio went into 'survival mode' following the games release and there's a bunch of concept images from ROL and another cancelled game which looks a lot like it.

 

Edit: they talk about why there was the big red staff exodus, 

Edit 2: They were surprised that the game got such a negative reception... Holy shit!

[Vertekins]

38 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

They were surprised that the game got such a negative reception... Holy shit!

Considering this, it's absolutely no surprise to me at all personally that RoL turned out the way it did.

I mean if you're designing and programming shit like that and honestly don't believe that it'll get slammed by critics and players alike, you have absolutely no business working on a game. Because it's clear as crystal here that BRB had no standards of quality if they thought RoL was acceptable to the point of being surprised by it's negative reception.

Quote

"First and foremost, we wanted to make sure it was a strong platformer, that we were true to Sonic’s sense of speed,"

L O-Fucking L.

Practically nothing about Boom is true to Sonic's sense of speed. And I question that it was a "first and foremost" concept as a result.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Reading through the parts about ROL. Yeah I don't think Rafei is being completely honest. 

It reads like ROL turned out the way it did because BRB didn't known what to do with it/they were experimenting too much, well.. hang on, as the programmers/developer, you should be doing what the client (Sega) wants, now what you want it to turn into, would love to get some clarification on that. 

[Indigo Rush]

While I still genuinely feel sympathy for the team working on RoL, I am still not obligated to pretend the game was the least bit acceptable. While it had some decent ideas (and some really good ones, too!), it's a product of the designers not actually taking care to understand what makes Sonic tick.

They were already determined from the beginning to make it an explorative team-based adventure game with a heavy combat focus. While I wouldn't immediately pass off the premise (you could make a decent Sonic-themed action RPG-type game with this in mind), it's not exactly an easy thing to marry with Sonic's momentum-based speedy platforming and freerunning. It's possible, but hard. Like, they obviously knew that speed was integral to the core, but they didn't do anything to play off of it - instead opting to implement auto-run sections to connect hubworlds together.

Now, on paper, that doesn't sound too awful, but unfortunately the design process didn't follow through with a decent enough execution. It's Sonic's speed in all the wrong ways; it's essentially the Mach-Speed sections from Sonic 2006 and the behind-the-back sections of Secret Rings combined, but with absolutely little creative thought in it's obstacle placement. It's kind of embarrassing when Sonic Dash, a Temple Run knock-off in premise, does a far better job doing this with touch controls. And to top it off, the frame-rate is choppy and breaks the game. It's unpolished and unfinished. The efforts to implement Sonic's speed are ruined here.

But even if those areas were well-designed and unbroken, I still consider it to be misplaced effort. In the meat of the game, Sonic and friends travel no faster than a brisk walk - it's almost slower than the walking speed you'd find in a 3D Zelda - which are generally slower than Mario. 

Slower than MARIO.

THAT IS THE CARDINAL SIN OF SONIC GAME DESIGN.

It then becomes nothing more than a slow-paced exploration platformer with puzzles thrown throughout - and they're not even challenging or involve any sort of risk - if you fall and die, you respawn with 30 rings. There's no consequence to dying at all. And the alternate paths that you can take as the other characters, far more often than not, all lead to the same areas. It's no true reward for doing so (except maybe one of those crowns?), and it kind of nerfs the utility of having other characters if any of them will do the job. If they had branched out to whole new areas and changed the entire pacing of the levels, that would have been a better use - but to my knowledge, this never truly happens. 

Then there's the combat - none of it takes advantage of Sonic's bounce and spin mechanics and no one move is more useful than the other. While that may have been the original idea, it clearly didn't come to fruition. The only real variation I can find is that Tails is a range fighter (which I have no problem with), but again, there's no real strategy to be found in the combat, so it's just there if you want to play a different character. 

And I'm not going to rag on the glitches and lack of polish beyond that - it's comparable to Sonic 2006. That's all that needs to be said.

RoL could have been a lot better and still stuck with most of it's flawed ideas if they had utilized more traditional Sonic mechanics and tailored the design of the overworld, platforming and combat to those mechanics - but they didn't. They wanted to make their own game and stick Sonic's face on it, putting one or two speed-based concepts in the game to say that it's a Sonic game. And throw in an electric grappling hook-rope thing.

That is not enough. I'm sorry that they worked hard on this project to have it blow up in their face, but there's a reason for it;

... and it's not because the Sonic fanbase is cranky.

 

[Celestia]

To be honest, I don't think we'll be getting the...well, honest story about what exactly happened with Rise of Lyric anytime soon. Or ever, as the case may be.

Also, isn't some of this essentially what they've been saying since ~mid-2015 or so, anyway? Like, the stuff about being surprised by the game's reception, essentially blaming fans by insinuating that we're just unreasonable and that's why we were unhappy with a bad game, etc. I dunno, I just feel like we've heard that stuff before...

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

For some reason, I find the whole "suprised people would think the game sucks" to be absolute bullshit. It wasn't made like a Sonic game, they should have expected it to have a horrible reception. Hell they should have KNOWN.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

6 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

For some reason, I find the whole "suprised people would think the game sucks" to be absolute bullshit. It wasn't made like a Sonic game, they should have expected it to have a horrible reception. Hell they should have KNOWN.

As they say. Denial is the first step to acceptance.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

4 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

As they say. Denial is the first step to acceptance.

That's why I don't trust Sega/Sonic team as much as I throw them ;p

[Guest]

lol at people expecting Bob to break NDAs.

And which studio founder would want their first released game, which they worked on for three years, to be a failure? I could easily see him hoping people would like the game after all.

[Speeps]

So they made a bad game and they're saying they missed all those horrible bugs and design flaws in all that time leading up to the release? Yeah, that sounds like the words of a competent developer if you ask me.

People rant on about how Lost World doesn't play like a Sonic game, but god damn Rise of Lyric is a whole new level. Everything I've seen of that game is something I wouldn't expect from Sonic, but from a PS2 platformer you'd see on shelves for a discount price these days. If BRB had the slightest idea about Sonic games it's that making a game that ultimately got rated lower than 06 definitely isn't the best way to go about doing things.

They knew they made a turd and that line about not thinking Rise of Lyric would get hit so hardly with all those gleaming flaws makes things even more frustrating.

[Badnik Mechanic]

30 minutes ago, Celestia said:

To be honest, I don't think we'll be getting the...well, honest story about what exactly happened with Rise of Lyric anytime soon. Or ever, as the case may be.

Also, isn't some of this essentially what they've been saying since ~mid-2015 or so, anyway? Like, the stuff about being surprised by the game's reception, essentially blaming fans by insinuating that we're just unreasonable and that's why we were unhappy with a bad game, etc. I dunno, I just feel like we've heard that stuff before...

I suspect I'll end up doing a spin on this.

Bob was never going to come out and say 'hey here's the absolute truth of the mater' or 'we utterly suck' as some people assume and want them to say.

The answer he's given is probably as good as we're going to ever get, but with what he has said seems to match up with a number of things we already knew, only in some cases the reasons for said things are questionable here and there.

I don't believe for one second that they were completely shocked at the negative reaction... christ the very first lets play of the game found a near game breaking bug for goodness sake.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

7 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

That's why I don't trust Sega/Sonic team as much as I throw them ;p

Not really seeing the connection since denial isn't really Sega, let alone Sonic Team's real big issue at the moment. 

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

People seemed to forget that he had to work 80 hours a week, his staff got shortened and had sleepless nights. It's shortsighted that he didn't expect the backlash, but I can imagine a lot of his effort and time has been put in to the game. Even though his efforts didn't save the game.

After 3 years of hard work, dreaming this would put Sonic back on the map, during mid-development everything went in to pieces. Thanks to Sega asking them to throw this game in within the Nintendo exclusive contract.

I read some of the comments in the article. Most of their time was sucked in by trying to get CryEngine to work on Wii U. Big mistake on BRB and Sega's part. 

But yeah, if you drew something for 3 long months and it turns out to look crap to others, them saying "U SUCK AT DRAWING!" you won't just sit there and agree that the effort you put in sucks. I'm sure Bob knows he could have done better and learn secretly from his mistakes. Upwards and onwards.

[QuantumEdge]

Frankly, the article just makes me feel all the more depressed, taking me all the way back two years ago to a time when I thought this game was going to be something different, but something that had promise as well.  Maybe someday Bob's gonna come clean and admit they just thought they could wing it in the end.  I understand why he won't say what others would want him to say.  After all, as far as I know, BRB is still in business, why would you slag off your first game at a point where your company hasn't gone under?

[Milo]

28 minutes ago, Ming Ming Kanon said:

But yeah, if you drew something for 3 long months and it turns out to look crap to others, them saying "U SUCK AT DRAWING!" you won't just sit there and agree that the effort you put in sucks. I'm sure Bob knows he could have done better and learn secretly from his mistakes. Upwards and onwards.

That's not exactly saying the effort he put into his drawing sucks. That's more akin to saying that his talent/skill at drawing sucks. There's a difference.

Based on what I've read, I won't dispute that Rafei and his team put in a lot of effort to try and make RoL a good game and/or did all they could to save the final product throughout its turbulent production. At the same time I would say that their work on Rise of Lyric isn't very good and --in the context of a making a Sonic spinoff, let alone a Sonic game-- is even misguided in its direction at times.

[SonicWind]

It's honestly a shame BRB's first shipped game had to turn out like this, after so many years of trying to release something-- anything. When I look at RoL's concept art, I see a game that had potential, a game that could have been better than how it is now-- especially with the kind of people working on it. I was optimistic it would be good, and in the end, I was wrong.

I mean, yeah, all of the statements made in this article may not exactly be true, but I really feel sorry for everyone there. I hope the company can somehow find a way to make a comeback from this disaster.

It's a slim chance, but I still hope.

[Dejimon11]

When I look at the state of Rise Of Lyric I just think to myself that it was rushed out the door so SEGA can get out of the nintendo contract quality be damned. I do feel bad for the people involved with this game like Bob and Frost since ultimately they wanted to make a good game but due to executive meddling they just couldn't do it. While it does suck it still doesn't excuse the fact that boom was a bad game and the excuses like "not sure how to please the fans" and "we were under the impression that people didn't want to go fast in a sonic game" doesn't help matters granted I know that they are under NDA but still they could of come up with better excuses.

And as I've stated multiple times before the fact that people defend it with the excuse "it's for kids" and "it's a licensed game" really grinds my gears. Realistically Boom could of been a really good game not a sonic game just a good game in general spinoff or not. The ideas were there it's just that they need more time to finish it, make sonic and co go fast around the levels, expand the combat, change the level design a bit and improve on the story and you could of gotten a winner here. You'd think that they would learn from Sonic 06 never to rush a game out spinoff or not but nope. Hopefully BRB will learn from this and might end up like the company that made bubsy 3D, made a really crap game then went on to make good games like the uncharted game on the vita since the people behind BRB did work on games like Crash and Jak wishful thinking. I'm also bitter that I spent $60 and had to record it so that's a bigger factor to why I hate it more than I did.

[jordy-pordy]

I don't have time to read the article right now but do they mention that the engine they were working on wasn't compatible with the Wii U's architecture? Because, among other things of course, I think that was a really big reason why the final game was well... bad. Because the Wii U literally could not run it in the way it was meant to. 

[Green Eyes]

A part of me wonders if they're trying to keep face somewhat, as it can be deleterious to display a lack of faith in your work, and there could be NDA issues preventing people from being honest about it. Buuut this does seem rather silly, there comes a point where everyone can see there's a problem but they're still acting surprised.

Though to be fair I'd also assume there's been some rather personal attacks on them, which no-one should have to expect.

[The Deleter]

This part strikes me as odd:

 

Quote

explaining that the project became overscoped as Big Red Button continued to prototype and change mechanics "significantly" during playtesting.

 

There's not much to the gameplay as-is; how can there even be "significant" changes if it's just a J&D clone at heart?

Paired with this a comment from one of the art directors in the comments section:

 

Quote

As for the "traditional platformer mechanics, things changed over the course of 2-3 years. What was working at one point ended up being changed to fit other parts of the story. I think the original core gameplay that was fun got lost in the middle of development.

 

??? Only segregation of gameplay there is is the varying speeds for normal stages and speed sections, from what I can recall?

[PSI Wind]

1 hour ago, jordy-pordy said:

I don't have time to read the article right now but do they mention that the engine they were working on wasn't compatible with the Wii U's architecture? Because, among other things of course, I think that was a really big reason why the final game was well... bad. Because the Wii U literally could not run it in the way it was meant to. 

The CryEngine is completely compatible with the Wii U's architecture. The Wii U uses similar architecture to the 360 and PS3. The MAIN issue was getting the dual screen setup to work with CryEngine. I don't even know why they wanted to do that in the first place. They should've just kept the game running on the TV Screen or Gamepad, have no co-op, and unless they actually did, have Crytek help them with getting it to work as only Crytek at that time had a game (Crysis 3) working on the Wii U.

[jordy-pordy]

4 minutes ago, PSI Wind said:

The CryEngine is completely compatible with the Wii U's architecture. The Wii U uses similar architecture to the 360 and PS3. The MAIN issue was getting the dual screen setup to work with CryEngine. I don't even know why they wanted to do that in the first place. They should've just kept the game running on the TV Screen or Gamepad, have no co-op, and unless they actually did, have Crytek help them with getting it to work as only Crytek at that time had a game (Crysis 3) working on the Wii U.

Oh it is? I thought I had read it wasn't compatible... Now I feel dumb oops.

Also, Crysis 3 was on Wii U?? Or was it just a proof of concept type of thing? 

[PSI Wind]

1 hour ago, jordy-pordy said:

Oh it is? I thought I had read it wasn't compatible... Now I feel dumb oops.

Also, Crysis 3 was on Wii U?? Or was it just a proof of concept type of thing? 

Crytek had a version of Crysis 3 fully running on Wii U. It could've easily been released but EA has a say in the platforms it releases on.

[WakanoBaka]

They didn't think the game would get such negative reception? What? Have they never heard of Sonic fans? Most of those guys can't handle change.....that and they did a medicrapper job as a Sonic game, but as a eat-em up game.....they didn't do anything impressive....I mean, SEGA/Sonic Team did a WAAAAAYYYY better beat-em up with the werehog. At least I could enjoy that.

 

[jordy-pordy]

30 minutes ago, PSI Wind said:

Crytek had a version of Crysis 3 fully running on Wii U. It could've easily been released but EA has a say in the platforms it releases on.

Oh wow I never knew that. Thank you for correcting me!