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Paper Mario Color Splash

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I don't really feel cut-scenes should be mutually exclusive to movies, and games should tell stories only through gameplay. As wraith said, it depends on the artists vision for the story and whether they can still have a good balance. For example, FF and KH are rpg's where I think cut-scenes are a necessity to work the story given the grand scope, and shit done in the scenes. I enjoy how they're presented. But again, there are tons of ways games as a whole can and should present plots, now that the industry has grown.

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12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

"Gameplay" in an RPG is more often than not you selecting things from a menu. This is one genre where text dumps and the like make more sense.

The only place that text dumps are an appropriate way to tell a story is in a book. Games are a visual and interactive media, if the best they can offer is dumping text on you they're doing it wrong.

7 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Yes, Platformers got away with a lackluster plot, and managed to become such a big name in gaming. As already established, there is a much different expectancy from RPGs in terms of stories. 

If RPGs are going to be held to higher standards for storytelling, they should actually try to be good at it, and not just bigger than.

2 minutes ago, KHCast said:

I don't really feel cut-scenes should be mutually exclusive to movies, and games should tell stories only through gameplay.

For the record I am not saying "no text or cutscenes ever", I am saying they should be supporting structures to what gaming does best, rather than being designed like a disjointed movie that you have to grind through gameplay to access.

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Because nothing says good storytelling other than "Mario collects stickers and saves princess I guess". I mean I agree the story needs to be actually good, but TTYD, and SPM both had excellent stories, so I don't really know how that ties into my point. That's one of the big reasons Sticker Star is so hated, because the plot was so incredibly lackluster, especially for an RPG, and the gameplay was so gimmicky that it couldn't even hold up anything for the story.

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2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The only place that text dumps are an appropriate way to tell a story is in a book. Games are a visual and interactive media, if the best they can offer is dumping text on you they're doing it wrong.

 

Games aren't necessarily "visual". The only prerequisite is that it be interactive, hence why text adventures and visual novels are a thing. It's not really fair to say they're "doing it wrong" when these genres have been doing there thing this way and have had success doing it for decades now. There's nothing wrong with something that's a little text heavy as long as it's well written. The beauty of games is that there's lots of flexibility in how we can get these stories across.

It's fine id you dont care for that sort of thing(I can't get into most JRPGs for similar reasons), but saying they're doing it wrong is like actively asking it to change for you at the expense of everyone else.  

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Now I am imagining Pokemon without text. ;p

I really do disagree about text stories only being for books and not for video games. For RPGs like some of the Mario games or Pokemon at it's best, text and cutscenes are pretty much needed so that the player can understand what is going on. I mean yes they can do it through the gameplay but you have to do it in a way that fits. and even then, for some players it gets confusing.

the point of an RPG is for the player to feel like they are part of the story/game. So it makes sense for the cutscenes to happen in that regard.

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Games aren't necessarily "visual". The only prerequisite is that it be interactive, hence why text adventures and visual novels are a thing. It's not really fair to say they're "doing it wrong" when these genres have been doing there thing this way and have had success doing it for decades now. There's nothing wrong with something that's a little text heavy as long as it's well written. The beauty of games is that there's lots of flexibility in how we can get these stories across.

It's fine id you dont care for that sort of thing(I can't get into most JRPGs for similar reasons), but saying they're doing it wrong is like actively asking it to change for you at the expense of everyone else.  

I do have to agree that if a game, all it does it just spoon feed it via text, then it needs to go back the drawing board. There is more than one way to tell a story however with RPGs I do think the text dumps are needed.

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11 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

And Diogenes

Why do you keep bothering to post here if you're just pushing the basic platformer/game play first mindset into an RPG series...? It's like poking a tiger in a cage.

 it's an opinion. he's allowed to voice it ;p 

i don't agree to it but i do understand it. which is why RPGs aren't my thing

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I'm not sure why a gameplay first mindset would be a bad thing for RPGs.  From Software pretty much made their name by making RPGs with fantastic gameplay with very indirect storytelling with little to no cutscenes.  Those games hardly ever take control of the game away from you to deliver exposition, a lot of the dialogue you can engage in with other NPCs is optional and very brief at that, and a lot of the story can be discovered simply by playing the game and observing your surroundings.  I can't say for sure if it was From Software's intention, but the gameplay is what keeps me hooked, while the story is a nice cherry on top if I wish to pursue it.

I'm not saying that this should be the case for Paper Mario, but I don't think it's fair to say that RPGs with a strong focus on gameplay don't work.

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57 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I'm just saying, if you don't even care about such an RPG type of series, why argue in the topic?

Are you being serious with this question or do you not understand why people debate against ideas they don't like?

Regardless, one thing about the whole "games are visual!" thing that I've never seen people reconcile is the fact that, well, text is visual. I don't know about anyone else but since I'm not blind I primarily intake the content of books with my eyes. This is also an interactive process. Again, I don't know about anyone else, but I don't just have the content of books magically sucked into my brain space; I have to read, to flip the pages or scroll, to look up word, to comprehend and reflect. Furthermore, if we recognize that books utilize text with resounding success as a medium- far moreso than games have been- then we have to consider the argument that text is better at certain things than visuals are.

Going back to the point that text is visual and even interactive, it is better at conveying specificity than graphics are because language has more definition than images do. It is also better at psychologically, intellectually and emotionally engaging the other four senses through description, details, and metaphors. A writer worth their chops can take a single screenshot from any game and expound upon the sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and feels of that shot with the efficiency and rigidity of the written word that polygons and pixels in my mind cannot, meaning it is a valid tool to be used even in mediums that more broadly convey narrative through imagery. This is why text can be swell within RPGs and visual novels, and subsequently it's foolish to say it always needs to be used to the minimum. 

Remember, if games are art, can't they honestly do anything and be valid so long as there is interactivity?

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Personally, I think it looks fun and interesting, I know a lot can change in a Nintendo game between reveal and release, and I'm curious to see what it brings to the table. It's a great looking game and should be a unique experience on the wii-u, and I enjoy the Paper Mario series especially because of it's experimentation. For now though it's best to wait and see what the final product looks like because we have no idea of when it's coming nor it's scope.

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2 hours ago, Mikyeong said:

 it's an opinion. he's allowed to voice it ;p

You know something, this kind of behavior is getting really annoying. Not only is this a poor defense, you're needlessly throwing yourself into an argument because you feel compelled to offer unwavering support to someone when they are clearly capable of handling themselves, and not adding anything to the discussion or argument at all.

Stop it.

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1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

Are you being serious with this question or do you not understand why people debate against ideas they don't like?

I'm fine with it, just skeptical of it when other opinions are coming from someone who isn't even a fan of the genre/series.

It's just a matter of coming in to say why you hate it, even though you don't like it anyways, then saying to make it like the other series you like, then you'll like it. I mean... Multiple things are allowed to exist, spin-off's and side-franchises are allowed to be completely different. If they all were the same, the reason for their existence would be null and void.

If the only difference between Mario and Paper Mario is the fact one has slightly more script than the other and one is made of paper content... Why even bother?

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I actually am a fan of Paper Mario, because it had the guts to dispense with some of the usual RPG bullshit and actually make a good game, instead of mindlessly repeating decades old mistakes that have unfortunately ruined a genre. And I would like it to continue bucking the usual terrible trends in favor of newer, better ideas, instead of retreating back to old territory every time it missteps.

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3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And I would like it to continue bucking the usual terrible trends in favor of newer, better ideas, instead of retreating back to old territory every time it missteps.

I also want to see new, better ideas, in Paper Mario and every other series.

Unfortunately that's not at all what they did with Sticker Star (and, from what we've seen so far, this game). Instead of throwing out stuff that didn't work--and to be fair, if I really thought about it I could probably think about plenty of little things about 64* that I'd change--and bringing in new, better ideas, they did away with most of what people actually liked about Paper Mario. There's new ideas, sure, and some of them aren't necessarily (inherently) bad, just poorly handled. But even if these changes to the formula were executed well, people would still understandably be upset about the things they like about the series being so casually abandoned.

Kind of reminds me of another series, but I can't quite put my finger on it...something about some hedgehog, I think.

*I've only played parts of TTYD so far, hence me not bringing it up here. I'll get to the rest of it when I can. Nintendo re-releasing it on VC or whatever would really help. T_T

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4 minutes ago, Sean said:

There's no reason why they can't revisit the PM64/TTYD gameplay and improve on it however. Of course the series needs to evolve, but throwing everything entirely out the window, the things that people loved about those games, isn't the way to go about it.

And I'm not defending every change that's been made. SPM was crap, Sticker Star arguably moreso. But I saw potential in some of the things Sticker Star tried, so I'm willing to at least see if Color Splash improves on it rather than labeling it as a failure immediately. And looking back at it, I'm past the idea of a TTYD 2. Paper Marios 1 and 2 were desperately needed innovation for the genre, but I want to see it pushed further.

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Color Splash can be decent if it fixes SS's problems... but really, I have absolutely zero interest in revisiting Sticker Star's formula anymore than I have for revisiting wisps in Sonic. I'm just inherently far more interested in what the first two games can bring to the table if their ideas were expanded on than I am in what Sticker Star can provide

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14 hours ago, Mikyeong said:

 it's an opinion. he's allowed to voice it ;p 

i don't agree to it but i do understand it. which is why RPGs aren't my thing

It's not really opinion when said post was generalizing the debates as just "ugh, cutscenes and dialogue".

Saying something like "I don't like TTYD because *insert reasons here* would qualify as as an opinion. Also, what Zaysho said. It's a very weak argument, and because A. You just jumped in without even commenting on the debate itself, it feels like you just jumped into the argument for the sake of it.

My main problem with Colour Splash is it seems to be actively regressing back in the series, rather than trying to evolve it. People have already said three times at this point that they wanted the traditional fighting system back. People have already said they want a good story back, especially since Super Paper Mario managed to evolve the story into the best the series has had at this point.

I don't understand how people are confused with the backlash here, because I should say it's pretty obvious. Nintendo already went down this road, and made these mistakes, and got the reaction of "this is pretty terrible". So why are they doing it again? Why do they seem to be actively throwing out everything that's said by fans in regards to the game? It doesn't make any kind of logical sense, and shows one hell of a critical market research failure for Nintendo.

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44 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

It's not really opinion when said post was generalizing the debates as just "ugh, cutscenes and dialogue".

Saying something like "I don't like TTYD because *insert reasons here* would qualify as as an opinion. Also, what Zaysho said. It's a very weak argument, and because A. You just jumped in without even commenting on the debate itself, it feels like you just jumped into the argument for the sake of it.

My main problem with Colour Splash is it seems to be actively regressing back in the series, rather than trying to evolve it. People have already said three times at this point that they wanted the traditional fighting system back. People have already said they want a good story back, especially since Super Paper Mario managed to evolve the story into the best the series has had at this point.

I don't understand how people are confused with the backlash here, because I should say it's pretty obvious. Nintendo already went down this road, and made these mistakes, and got the reaction of "this is pretty terrible". So why are they doing it again? Why do they seem to be actively throwing out everything that's said by fans in regards to the game? It doesn't make any kind of logical sense, and shows one hell of a critical market research failure for Nintendo.

I actually did give an opinion on the debate itself and explained why I disagreed even with my limited knowledge of RPGs except that I liked Pokemon and Mario ones.

I've played a few of the PM games and they have great stories. I've never played Sticker Star so I cannot comment on that but I don't know if this one is going to be bad, I'll just have to wait and find out. I do enjoy a good story in an RPG since the point is for the player to be the protagonist in their own story so if the story bombs, I will be very disappointed. The game could surprise us though since we didn't see much of it.

However story telling, I am not sure how they would tell the story through gameplay and no text. This isn't an indie platformer where it doesn't hold your hand and you have the solve and understand the story yourself via the gameplay and visual properties. RPGS pretty much have to hold your hand or you won't know what's going on. 

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Just now, Mikyeong said:

I actually did give an opinion on the debate itself and explained why I disagreed even with my limited knowledge of RPGs except that I liked Pokemon and Mario ones.

I've played a few of the PM games and they have great stories. I've never played Sticker Star so I cannot comment on that but I don't know if this one is going to be bad, I'll just have to wait and find out. I do enjoy a good story in an RPG since the point is for the player to be the protagonist in their own story so if the story bombs, I will be very disappointed. The game could surprise us though since we didn't see much of it.

However story telling, I am not sure how they would tell the story through gameplay and no text. This isn't an indie platformer where it doesn't hold your hand and you have the solve and understand the story yourself via the gameplay and visual properties. RPGS pretty much have to hold your hand or you won't know what's going on. 

Alright, I didn't see that post so I apologize. Point still stands however, generalizing an argument doesn't count as an opinion.

As for story-telling, it's doubtful Colour Splash is going to even try that from what's been seen so far. It seems to be just 3D Mario, but Paper, and you have a paint brush. It's like they're trying to pull Paper Mario into another gameplay perspective without actually realizing why he worked so well in 2D when compared to normal Mario. Now, they're still trying to repeat their own mistakes without realizing why people hated said mistakes in the first place. It baffles me why they think it's going to be good business, and that is even has a chance of surviving in the market. Going from a business perspective, I would assume Colour Splash is going to end up releasing somewhere near FF7 Remake, FF15, and KH3. That's three different major RPGs it's going to be going against, and they don't have any selling points to try sell itself. Nintendo have already shot themselves in the foot.

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11 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Alright, I didn't see that post so I apologize. Point still stands however, generalizing an argument doesn't count as an opinion.

As for story-telling, it's doubtful Colour Splash is going to even try that from what's been seen so far. It seems to be just 3D Mario, but Paper, and you have a paint brush. It's like they're trying to pull Paper Mario into another gameplay perspective without actually realizing why he worked so well in 2D when compared to normal Mario. Now, they're still trying to repeat their own mistakes without realizing why people hated said mistakes in the first place. It baffles me why they think it's going to be good business, and that is even has a chance of surviving in the market. Going from a business perspective, I would assume Colour Splash is going to end up releasing somewhere near FF7 Remake, FF15, and KH3. That's three different major RPGs it's going to be going against, and they don't have any selling points to try sell itself. Nintendo have already shot themselves in the foot.

OK I see what your saying now. I'm not sure how the gameplay perspective would work.... it did work for the Galaxy series but I am not sure for this series. I mean I am curious how this will work out as there is more than one way to tell a story rather than dump a novel on you but I am not so sure.

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I always felt that the first two Paper Mario games emphasized gameplay over story anyway, due to the care taken to make battles far more engaging to the player than in a standard RPG. Arguably, the only Mario RPG I can think of where it was the other way around was Super Paper Mario, where the story was amazing but the gameplay felt half thought-out. (I still loved it though)

The stories in most Mario RPGs weren't special; they usually boiled down to just Mario needing to collect the seven chaos mcguffinemeralds to save the day, but they were very well-written and had a lot of charm that I'd say they still had fantastic stories all the same, even Paper Mario which was just a storybook twist on the classic "Bowser kidnaps Peach" story. I don't consider it a tall order to expect Nintendo to at least give us some reason to care about what's going on, because they've done it before and they're brilliant at their craft. People aren't just disappointed because PM lacks plot anymore; they're disappointed because Nintendo is so good at constructing a story for Mario (which even SMG1 shows) and they simply choose not to do it. I wouldn't say the removal of story is a major loss for the platformer series, but it is for a subseries whose early games were beloved by its fans for their storytelling.

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