Paper Mario Color Splash

[Chili Dawg]

I guess to Nintendo, Paper Mario games are just slightly more experimental Mario games. Going back to Super they seem to have not wanted to make em the good old fashioned way of the first two, and with this one, there are now more nontraditional games in the Paper Mario series making the first two the outliers. I wonder if there was just a feeling after Thousand Year Door that they've done all they can with that concept? 

[Milo]

25 minutes ago, Chili Dawg said:

I guess to Nintendo, Paper Mario games are just slightly more experimental Mario games. Going back to Super they seem to have not wanted to make em the good old fashioned way of the first two, and with this one, there are now more nontraditional games in the Paper Mario series making the first two the outliers. I wonder if there was just a feeling after Thousand Year Door that they've done all they can with that concept? 

Early trailers for Sticker Star showed the gameplay looking closer to that of the first two games. Miyamoto's on record for saying he was responsible for the redone battle system.

So for Color Splash to apparently be following Sticker Star's path tells me either someone up top is putting their foot down towards going back to the older gameplay style, or the developers themselves are no longer interested.

[Chili Dawg]

Well yeah I know the whole Sticker Star story but the fact that the trend of doing it nontraditionally goes back to Super makes me wonder if the game that eventually became Sticker Star was a weird fluke of some kind. Or if maybe Miyamoto was right and it was just a retread of the GC game, not that anyone would have said no to that by then.  It just always seems that what Nintendo developers are passionate about in their games is quite often not the same as what fans are, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

 

ALSO why does nintendo seem determined to Chuck Cunningham Toadsworth?

[Tails spin]

Playing paper jam made me want to get into the paper mario series. I love that a new game was announced but alas I dont have a wii u so let's see.

[Diogenes]

Paper Mario was a nontraditional sequel to SMRPG anyway.

[JezMM]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Game looks interesting enough so far. Obviously building off Sticker Star, but I don't have a visceral hatred of that game the way some people seem to, so I'm willing to see where they're going with this, at least.

Honestly, I loved TTYD, but after rewatching it with more objective eyes and seeing how pedestaled it's become after Sticker Star, I'm not interested in "just that again" anyway. Bring on the change, let's just hope it works out better this time.

To be fair, I don't think anyone wants "just that again".  They want a game that builds off of TTYD and follows it up with plenty familiar, plenty new.  Which, from what we've gathered so far is exactly what this Paper Mario is doing with Sticker Star.

[Chili Dawg]

So um that world map has a train! That could be something cool!

[Cradily Lover]

The problem with this game (and Sticker Star) is that they claim to be Paper Mario games when the only things they share in common are the paper aesthetic. That wasn't what made the first two Paper Mario games so well loved, it was the gameplay, the storyline, and the humour. To take almost everything out of Paper Mario that makes it Paper Mario twice in a row (or three if you count Super Paper) is just baffling, especially after the reaction to Sticker Star. 

 

Hopefully it will at least fix the major issues Sticker Star had relating to the thing stickers. Would it be naive to hope for a story as good as at least the N64 Paper Mario game?

[PC the Hedgehog]

On the plus side, the graphics are downright beautiful.

On the negative, good gravy, this game looks boring and lifeless. Why can't Nintendo (and Miyamoto, I guess) see that the fans want games like Paper Mario and TTYD? Are they SO out of touch with the fanbase that fifteen years of Paper Mario games hasn't shown them what works for the fans and what doesn't?



 

[Adamabba]

Apparently, during Sticker Star's Iwata Asks, Sticker Star was said to be the standard for future Paper Mario games, so I guess we kinda should of saw this coming.

[Sean]

Sticker Star is a serious, honest to god contender for my most hated Nintendo game. But if Color Splash fixes its most glaring, unforgivable flaws (unrewarding, time-wasting battle system; confusing and unintuitive level progression; obscure trial-and-error boss weaknesses), then I might be a little interested in trying this one out.

In the meantime though, I don't give a single shit about this game either way.

[Dantemustdie00]

2 hours ago, Adamabba said:

Apparently, during Sticker Star's Iwata Asks, Sticker Star was said to be the standard for future Paper Mario games, so I guess we kinda should of saw this coming.

WTF!?

Iwata, I respect you and all, but this was a absolute TERRIBLE thing to do to the Paper Mario series, to chunk all it's originally out the window for this blandness style.

[StaticMania]

Iwata wasn't the person who said that. He just asks the questions.

 

The responses are from the Developers at Intelligent Systems.

[----]

I think its here where the devs says that

http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/papermario/0/5

[Conando]

Yeah here's the thing about placing the blame on the likes of Miyamoto and Iwata...Intelligent Systems has control over its own games, so anything that made Sticker Star terrible was their idea, save for the try and use already established characters thing.

[Sean]

Also, not that I've played it but if others' impressions are anything to go by, Paper Jam shows that you can create a Mario RPG using only established main canon characters and still have it be good. Sticker Star sucked because the team employed by IS just didn't know how to make a good game.

[Mega]

...

This is extremely upsetting, to say the least. I really hoped that the criticism toward Sticker Star would have made a difference, but it seems Paper Mario's unique identity has been replaced with... this.

If all the NPCs are gonna be Toads, can't there at least be more unique variations? The first two games had so many creative Toad designs. These ones just look generic...

I know I'm salty, but Paper Mario was one of my introductory RPGs. As a longtime fan, it's heartbreaking to see what it's become.

[StaticMania]

Yeah, it's a bit odd that they're stuck to using the standard Toad design and only color variations.

You'd think they would be able to work around such a restriction, by altering the designs for a non-bland look. I guess they can't even do that, because it seems like the obvious course of action.

[Mania Pipe]

While Intelligent System is at fault with how the way Paper Mario is becoming nowadays but I know I'm probably wrong about this but... wasn't Miyamoto partially responsible for the way Sticker Star turned out the way it did though? Abandoning the elements that help define the Paper Mario series; like getting nothing but generic Toad NPCs, lack of partners (like that Chain Chomp partner that was present in the Beta version), lack of a story, no EXP/Star Points, and also having Bowser not talking for the entire game. If I recall in the Iwata Asks interview, after Miyamoto played the prototype of it, he said "it was just a port of the Gamecube version" which was The Thousand Year Door he was talking about. He also said "It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?" as well.

I know I'm shooting out there, but isn't that kinda how it lead to this? Please correct me, if I'm wrong about this.

 

Anyway, about Paper Mario: Color Splash... I don't think I have much to say about it, besides the graphics I mean the game looks really beautiful but that's about it honestly. I just have an anxious feeling this new Paper Mario game since it's following the mechanics of Sticker Star and all.

[Salamander]

A reminder that Sticker Star did, in fact, review well.  So this is basically the fault of the reviewers.  As with Sonic 4: Episode 2, it may take a barrage of negative reviews for this title, no matter how much or how little it deserves it, to turn things around.

For what it's worth, it's clear that the Paper Jam developers subsequently heard loud and clear the complaints about its lack of original characters and so on, as it came up during their big Miiverse interview a while back, but they aren't real Paper Mario developers so yeah.  It's too late for this game, but let's hope that Nintendo is listening... now.

[Mania Pipe]

47 minutes ago, FFWF said:

A reminder that Sticker Star did, in fact, review well.  So this is basically the fault of the reviewers.  As with Sonic 4: Episode 2, it may take a barrage of negative reviews for this title, no matter how much or how little it deserves it, to turn things around.

For what it's worth, it's clear that the Paper Jam developers subsequently heard loud and clear the complaints about its lack of original characters and so on, as it came up during their big Miiverse interview a while back, but they aren't real Paper Mario developers so yeah.  It's too late for this game, but let's hope that Nintendo is listening... now.

That is true as well, I had almost forgot on how they're also held as partially responsible too.

[Doctor MK]

High res screenshots:

As we already know, the game is gorgeous as all hell and I'm getting serious Rogueport vibes from the initial area on Prism Island which is always a good thing. I will say my emotions are not running quite as high any more and that I'm warming up to the potential that Color Splash might offer, even if it is a glorified sequel to Sticker Star (which, contrary to my prior reactions, I don't outright hate, I just find it deeply underwhelming and flawed from a design perspective). 

Some things I have noticed - Mario's HP is already at 50 and there's no obvious EXP meter... I genuinely can't remember how (or if) you could increase Mario's HP in Sticker Star but yeah it looks like there'll be no levelling up in this game either, which again will probably kind of lead to battles being utterly pointless aside from to get coins, which will buy you new cards, which you use up in battle... so... ehh?

The paint mechanic seems to play an important role in the battles too though, as you only get certain amounts of colour to work with (which throughout the trailer does change from a max of 100 to a max of 150, suggesting some sort of level up for that at least). This could be interesting in that it might dictate which cards you choose to use - certain ones may use up more (or more varieties of) paint than others, adding a layer of strategy other than just "pick a card from your collection" because obviously your paint will run out eventually... but how will it be restored? A meter like the star power in PM64 and TTYD, maybe? But if there's no real benefit to being in battles and all it does is use up your cards and paint, then... yeah that's a bit of an issue.

Oh, and for anyone hoping for some return to the original RPG mechanics, I think you're out of luck. I grabbed this screenshot from the trailer showing the start of the battle - Mario automatically gets out a deck of cards to sift through (just like he got out his sticker album in Sticker Star) and there's the blank card icon with a 1, indicating that you'll probable be able to eventually choose a series of cards all in a row for a single turn, much like you could do with stickers in Sticker Star. Maybe they'll have special "party" cards where side characters come in to attack on Mario's behalf, but honestly I think this is going to be a one man show all over again.

However, all will be redeemed if Mario starts off every battle by shouting this:

 

[Radiant Hero Ike]

We've only seen like, a minute and a half of gameplay. We didn't even get to see Mario use the cards yet. Maybe we should wait just a little bit more before thinking it's going to be terrible? If it ends up being just like Sticker Star (never played it) than I'll take this back but, just wait, alright?

[Doctor MK]

Well whaddya know, the Japanese Direct actually had a few extra snippets of gameplay (from 13:31):

Including:

- 3D model of the floating paint bucket thing (which was only seen as a paper character before)

- Shy Guy battle card

- charge meter for the hammer battle card

- longer animation for the fan battle card

- battle victory screen (and predictably, the only spoils are coins... no EXP)

[Milo]

5 hours ago, FFWF said:

A reminder that Sticker Star did, in fact, review well.  So this is basically the fault of the reviewers.  As with Sonic 4: Episode 2, it may take a barrage of negative reviews for this title, no matter how much or how little it deserves it, to turn things around.

For what it's worth, it's clear that the Paper Jam developers subsequently heard loud and clear the complaints about its lack of original characters and so on, as it came up during their big Miiverse interview a while back, but they aren't real Paper Mario developers so yeah.  It's too late for this game, but let's hope that Nintendo is listening... now.

This is true, but it's also worth noting Sticker Star stands as the lowest-reviewed Paper Mario. On both GameRankings and Metacritic, the earlier three Paper Mario games all sit within the mid-high 80s range of critical reception (or in the case of the original Paper Mario, the low 90s in the latter). Sticker Star in contrast sits squarely in the mid 70s on both sites. So while reviews were favorable, it shows that critics didn't praise the game as much as they did with the earlier titles, and that indicates that those complaining about the game's changes actually had merit to their complaints. The frequently cited gameplay (regarding the first two) and story is part and parcel of why the earlier games were well-received by both reviewers and fans, and going back to that with a new game would indicate that the developers have heard feedback and intend to bring the series back to the pedigree established by earlier titles.

So for Color Splash to instead continue on what Sticker Star established in spite of the above implies that the developer is either oblivious to the higher bar of quality set by earlier games; or they are aware, but they don't care and want to settle with the "OK" or "good enough" standard that Sticker Star set.

And speaking of which, Sonic 4 is a perfect comparison example. I remember a fair amount of people pointing to its 75 GR/MC score as a rebuttal to negative reviews and complaints levied against Episode I; as if to say "well critics liked it, so there's no problem". Which is true, but given the context of the game being a classic Sonic sequel and how the earlier games were received (each title having high 80s on GR and the games collectively considered the series' peak), Sonic 4's reviews were not being presented in a vacuum. Sega of America, arguably in light of this, held a feedback session after Episode I's release and (with RubyEclipse even making a point in personally addressing the games' physics himself before anyone else in the room did), and continued to emphasize on how feedback was important to them in regards to the development of Episode II.

Following Episode I's supposed "prologue / throwback" experiment, Episode II was forced to become the yardstick by which classic fans could measure how far the developer's interest in making a Genesis Sonic sequel actually was. Despite the changes made, it can be argued that Episode II showed that the developers honestly (still) weren't interested in making a Genesis Sonic sequel either way. And considering Episode II's reviews and sales, and the lack of a third Sonic 4 episode in general, the Sonic 4 saga / classic Sonic branch consequently ended up paying the price for it as a result.

Likewise, depending on how much Color Splash addresses complaints regarding Sticker Star's gameplay on its own terms and its narrative, Colors Splash could either prove to be a decent step up (like M&L: Paper Jam) or end up going down the same route (especially so with the game being a Wii U title).