Paper Mario Color Splash

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

 I get that you're not happy with the little disagree you've seen,  but constantly attempting to tie the whole paint thing into Splatoon and Epic Mickey is more than a little damaging to your alleged ethos.

Little disagree...? Confused by that kind of... Bad wording or typo...?

I'm just bringing up things that are common sense revolving the Paper Mario franchise that WERE meant to distinguish it from the other series until Miyamoto screwed it over.

It's just annoying when people who aren't even fans of the games, or what it goes for, try to input their two cents more than anything to justify what it's doing/where it's going.

[StaticMania]

I suppose the only real problem of using your typical Mario Bros. world map in an RPG is that it lacks that immersive feel of a connected world. It creates jarring disconnect, I reckon.

 

Depending on your case, this may or may not matter that much.

[Sean]

Not sure if anybody has brought this up yet but Super Mario RPG, the very first RPG in the series, had a map system

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, StaticMania said:

I suppose the only real problem of using your typical Mario Bros. world map in an RPG is that it lacks that immersive feel of a connected world. It creates jarring disconnect, I reckon.

 

Depending on your case, this may or may not matter that much.

This pretty much is my issue.

And that's because of the technical limitations at the time I'd think Sean. Consoles can handle open world so much better now.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

 

I'm just bringing up things that are common sense revolving the Paper Mario franchise that WERE meant to distinguish it from the other series until Miyamoto screwed it over.

 

Ah,  you're one of those acclimated with the misconception that Miyamoto himself primarily engaged the huge shift of Sticker Star even though he wasn't even ultimately responsible for how the game turned out.

3 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

 

It's just annoying when people who aren't even fans of the games, or what it goes for, try to input their two cents more than anything to justify what it's doing/where it's going.

Being a fan or not,  of the games or how you,  yourself perceive what a game "goes for", is not a decisive matter to use to try and discredit what others you don't agree with have to say. 

[Sean]

But SMRPG didn't feel limited by its map. The levels within each icon were still huge and achieved the same feeling as going through any of the chapter areas in the first three PM games. The only thing setting SMRPG and its contemporaries apart in this regard is that each subsequent game had a hub world to connect all of these areas anyway, and the feeling of walking straight to the next chapter area was the same as simply selecting it on the map

[Chris Knopps]

7 minutes ago, Sean said:

But SMRPG didn't feel limited by its map. The levels within each icon were still huge and achieved the same feeling as going through any of the chapter areas in the first three PM games. The only thing setting SMRPG and its contemporaries apart in this regard is that each subsequent game had a hub world to connect all of these areas anyway, and the feeling of walking straight to the next chapter area was the same as simply selecting it on the map

Basically this. I've been getting complaints of walking back to places again and again but in reality you really didn't do that in past games UNLESS you were a completionist. backtracking wasn't that bad of an issue. It might have been necessary to a small degree for specific things, but by and large only those who go for 100% had to revisit locations.

Edit

Which is a big part of what made them good in my opinion...

[StaticMania]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

This pretty much is my issue.

And that's because of the technical limitations at the time I'd think Sean. Consoles can handle open world so much better now.

Technical limitations due to the graphical style used.

 

The Isometric, faux 3D graphics would probably tax the system something fierce if they went for a full open world hub to travel through. Staying with moderately sized, compact areas was the right decision.

[Sean]

It seems like you're criticizing Sticker Star's map system simply for existing. There are huge problems with SS's levels, but they wouldn't have been alleviated at all if they opted for an interconnected world instead. In fact, that would have made the game even more of a bitch due to the player having absolutely no clue where to go even with the map.

Seriously. I know Sticker Star is a shitty game (and by god it is), but I think people aren't blasting it for the appropriate reasons. Fans are concerned about how inherently different it is from past games, which isn't in and of itself a problem. The problem is that the game has pure, straight-laced bad game design because the pieces of the game just don't fit together, and it's just a fucking mess of experimental, half-completed or barely thought-out concepts.

[StaticMania]

Well in a hypothetical view, the absence of a World map system would've possibly cut down on the size of each area and hopefully making them easier to traverse through. 

 

Finding where to enter each new world in SS, isn't all that different from previous Paper Mario. You just exit from different directions of the main town. I think the only things that would end up being worse is the backtracking in regarding searching for "Things"and quite possibly the game-play focusing more on platforming challenges rather than puzzle.

 

The change in having levels within worlds was obviously because of that change, so they might not be able to create a complete world full of platforming challenges integrated into the mix. There would have to be more puzzles in this setup.

[Chris Knopps]

Apparently it was confirmed there's no XP in the Japanese version of the games trailer.

In other words...

Just hammer paint around, avoid as many enemies as you can since battles are pointless, and roll credits.

Have fun folks. I will say it again, this is no Paper Mario game save for title alone.

[Sonictrainer]

49 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Basically this. I've been getting complaints of walking back to places again and again but in reality you really didn't do that in past games UNLESS you were a completionist. backtracking wasn't that bad of an issue. It might have been necessary to a small degree for specific things, but by and large only those who go for 100% had to revisit locations.

Edit

Which is a big part of what made them good in my opinion...

I don't think searching for General White was optional.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Sonictrainer said:

I don't think searching for General White was optional.

"It might have been necessary to a small degree for specific things"

[Sonictrainer]

7 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

"It might have been necessary to a small degree for specific things"

Is there any Mario & Luigi game that doesn't require backtracking?

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Sonictrainer said:

Is there any Mario & Luigi game that doesn't require backtracking?

This is not Mario and Luigi, wrong thread.

[Sonictrainer]

12 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

This is not Mario and Luigi, wrong thread.

We can talk about maps and backtracking in Paper Mario compared to Super Mario RPG, but we can't talk about maps and backtracking in Paper Mario compared to Mario & Luigi because...?

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

We can talk about maps and backtracking in Paper Mario compared to Super Mario RPG, but we can't talk about maps and backtracking in Paper Mario compared to Mario & Luigi because...?

Backtracking is a core mechanic of the M&L series more-so than at any point in the Paper Mario series from my recollection where it's more required for 100% completion more-so than completing the game itself. That in mind you can't really use M&L as an argument because that's a standard staple of the series, not so much Paper Mario where it's a minimal feature to actually beat the game.

And again I bring this up...

There is no XP in this game, anyone got an argument for that? Anybody have thoughts in general?

[Sean]

No experience isn't a thing I'm necessarily against... However, battles in Sticker Star were pointless because coins were your only reward, which are used to purchase stickers, which can be found in abundant quantities on the field. And yet somehow at the same time, stickers are a precious resource that you don't want to use too much of, especially your good, shiny stickers that are best saved for bosses.

Sticker Star's battles sucked because there was no reward nor reason to even do them in the first place. Skipping battles was actually more beneficial. How the FUCK do you fuck up a game so badly that partaking in its main form of gameplay is actually detrimental to your progress!? Aaaaaaaargh it's seriously giving me a fucking headache just thinking how badly its battle system pissed me off

[StaticMania]

Just now, Sonictrainer said:

Is there any Mario & Luigi game that doesn't require backtracking?

Partners in Time doesn't really require backtracking. 

 

As it has a central hub setup, not really a bunch of connected areas. It's understandable why this is, but it's not really a thing in this game. PiT is actually quite linear, there's nothing much to explore for and there's never any reason you should ever backtrack...unless you want beans, which are optional.

 

Honestly by the time you get the ability to attain beans, the amount of beans you would backtrack for is hardly substantial enough to make you want to.

[DiamondX]

Can someone explain me whats wrong about this game? Everyone is hating on it... 

[Doctor MK]

1 hour ago, Diamond said:

Can someone explain me whats wrong about this game? Everyone is hating on it... 

Pretty much that it looks to have kept the basic gameplay foundations from Sticker Star (albeit now with cards rather than stickers), which everyone almost universally didn't like. Or at least, everyone agreed it wasn't as fun and intuitive as the traditional RPG mechanics from the first two Paper Mario games. No party members, no straightforward battles, no levelling up, etc.

That's not to say Color Splash is completely without hope though. The battles may be a bit pointless with no EXP to be earned, but so long as there's some other reason to fight and win coins other than buying more cards (which you then use up in battle) then it'll be less of an issue. Color Splash can also alleviate a chunk of problems with Sticker Star simply by toning down the importance of Thing items, better signposting of where to go and what to do, no desperate need for certain moves to defeat bosses... basically all the stuff that made it a frustrating chore unless you had a guide to hand.

I'm willing to tolerate the nerfed battle system because at the end of the day the inclusion of action commands still makes fights feel engaging and interactive, and if only psychologically it helps it feel a bit more like a classic Paper Mario game. Heck, I think I'm even just about willing to suffer through another story full of generic characters and locations if that turns out to be the case too. But all the poor design decisions that plagued Sticker Star need to be remedied, because they make it a bad game at the most fundamental level, let alone a bad Paper Mario game.

Long story short: game could still be fun, not going to be TTYD levels of good, but it's not quite irredeemable... yet. Can't blame people for thinking the worst though, given Nintendo's recent track record and general by-the-numbers approach to the Mario franchise lately.

[Sean]

Heck, I kinda liked the battle commands too. Not as much as TTYD's but they fit the game's more simple attitude. Unfortunately every attack in the game is locked behind a disposable sticker so it's difficult to appreciate when it's safer to use up generic jump stickers on everything while stingily saving the rest for the important fights.

[Doctor MK]

6 minutes ago, Sean said:

Heck, I kinda liked the battle commands too. Not as much as TTYD's but they fit the game's more simple attitude. Unfortunately every attack in the game is locked behind a disposable sticker so it's difficult to appreciate when it's safer to use up generic jump stickers on everything while stingily saving the rest for the important fights.

Oh definitely, 100% agreed. Basic moves like jump and hammer should not be limited to disposable stickers/cards as Mario can do those perfectly fine in the field, it makes no sense that he suddenly becomes completely incompetent the moment he steps into a battle. Different (stronger) versions or levels of those moves, like Power Bounce or Hammer Throw, that'd be fine to attach to cards/stickers seeing as they were limited in the earlier games with badges and FP anyway. But being absolutely reliant on disposable moves for everything is just so ridiculous, and we know for a fact it's going to work the same way in this game because we've already seen plenty of jump and hammer stickers, sadly.

The only justifiable reason for having this system would be if they're going to turn this into a videogame adaptation of a so-far-non-existent Paper Mario trading card game... hang on, M&L: Paper Jam had battle cards... and amiibo specific battle cards... oh god... think of the amiibo (and amiibo card) possibilities... shit this is totally going to have amiibo support for real-life collection purposes and special in-game battle moves isn't it? It's going to drain our souls and our wallets!

[Salamander]

I actually think Chris Knopps has a point about the emphasis on paint gameplay in Splatoon possibly having inspired an attempt on similar territory in Colour Splash, but I don't regard that as a big deal or something worth making a huge fuss about.  I like the emphasis on the material aesthetic in the recent Paper Marios.  Pretty much the only thing I do like about them, though.

3 hours ago, Sean said:

Sticker Star's battles sucked because there was no reward nor reason to even do them in the first place. Skipping battles was actually more beneficial. How the FUCK do you fuck up a game so badly that partaking in its main form of gameplay is actually detrimental to your progress!? Aaaaaaaargh it's seriously giving me a fucking headache just thinking how badly its battle system pissed me off

For this reason, my favourite part of Sticker Star was that Boo house where you had to track down and defeat a bunch of Boos, because it involved non-boss battles which were actually necessary.  Otherwise, yeah, after the first few hours I just avoided every single battle and I never regretted it or was hindered in any way.  And I'm going to actively stop talking about that game now otherwise I too will go on and on.  I just... really hope that Nintendo understood that good reviews and good sales did not mean that Sticker Star was flawless, but given how wilfully obtuse they can be at times then I wouldn't count on it.  Hell, all good sales mean is that consumers were potentially tricked; it doesn't at all mean that every single purchaser was satisfied.

[Sean]

-looks at how many posts I spent in this topic ranting about my hatred for Sticker Star- ugh

I reeeaaaaaaally would like Color Splash to at least turn out pretty okay. Because I didn't go into SS expecting to hate it at all; I was even liking it at first until its flaws just got more and more apparent. If IS can fix all of the obtuse design problems that dampened my own experience, then I might be willing to give Sticker Star's formula another shot. If they fuck up again though then Paper Mario is dead to me.