Paper Mario Color Splash

[Wraith]

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

And they did great, until Miyamoto shoved his two cents into the franchise.

Hope to God he retires after Zelda U releases.

People calling for Miyamoto to retire over this one instance of misdirection when he's been on point for most of his career is pretty irksome.  

[Chris Knopps]

7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

People calling for Miyamoto to retire over this one instance of misdirection when he's been on point for most of his career is pretty irksome.  

He hasn't been on point for years now. Every game has turned into minimalistic story in the Mario franchise because he doesn't want/like story in any of the games, he's point blank affirmed this in the past that Mario isn't meant for story in his eyes, just "fun game play" basically thus why the RPG's are being ruined. Staff LITERALLY argue/fight with him over putting story and new characters in the games, beginning primarily with Mario Galaxy 2 - now.

With age people get set in their ways, it has become too overbearing with him and Mario.

And with the constant Koopaling usage, with little alterations in how they are fought, same enemies in every single game even if the location is complete new/irrelevant to the Mushroom Kingdom, yeah, the man's a has-been.

If he must stick around, keep his nose solely in Zelda and other franchises and get off his high horse with Mario, otherwise the characters going to be exactly like Sonic.

[Briraka]

The way I see the whole Sticker Star-Miyamoto thing is more akin to a hypothetical scenario where George Lucas visits the set of The Force Awakens, makes a couple of crappy suggestions, and then the people in charge make changes to the film according to said crappy suggestions. They could've gone through with what they originally planned, but they potentially botched their work because, "OMG it's Lucas/Miyamoto!"*

*

Spoiler

Just to clarify, I don't think Miyamoto goes anywhere near George Lucas. :V

 

[Wraith]

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

He hasn't been on point for years now. Every game has turned into minimalistic story in the Mario franchise because he doesn't want/like story in any of the games, he's point blank affirmed this in the past that Mario isn't meant for story in his eyes, just "fun game play" basically thus why the RPG's are being ruined. Staff LITERALLY argue/fight with him over putting story and new characters in the games, beginning primarily with Mario Galaxy 2 - now.

And with the constant Koopaling usage, with little alterations in how they are fought, same enemies in every single game even if the location is complete new/irrelevant to the Mushroom Kingdom, yeah, the man's a has-been.

If he must stick around, keep his nose solely in Zelda and other franchises and get off his high horse with Mario, otherwise the characters going to be exactly like Sonic.

You say he "turned" Mario into a minimalistic story franchise when that was fucking always the case. This isn't Sonic.  Mario characters don't have depth because they weren't meant for that in the first place. Even in the RPGs, the RPG exclusive characters is where the character depth came from. Series mainstays like Mario, Peach and Bowser were always kept simple and almost felt more like plot devices than characters themselves. The characters are already more shallow than Sonic's cast and have always been that way.

It's also worth noting that Mario, these days, isn't even handled by Miyamoto directly. As far as I can tell, no series besides Pikmin(one of the series with the most heavy amount of story/worldbuilding elements, ironically) and Starfox are under his jurisdiction. Miyamoto has been taking a back seat from gaming development for a while now to let the younger generation take control(hence original IPs like Splatoon popping up more often in recent years.) Even the new Mario games don;'t really get much input from him. There are speical cases like Sticker Star, but the vast majority of Mario games you see nowadays probably haven't been changed much by him. the mainline Mario game's lack of story elements seem come from a lack of ambition from the company as a whole on that front, which I guess is pretty disappointing, but it is Mario. When it was never really that big on these elements in the first place I can't really be too bothered.

You;'re also downplaying his significance when it came to actually building the mechanics of the games( by far the most important part) just because he disagreed with a few story elements which is pretty baffling on it's own. 

And at the end of it all you call for him to focus on the other, far more story heavy series like Zelda instead which kind of contradicts your whole point. Story elements are far more key to Zelda than they are to Mario. Are you calling for him to go strip those games those more complex games down instead and leave the already extremely simplistc Mario alone? I don't get it.

 

 

 

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

You say he "turned" Mario into a minimalistic story franchise when that was fucking always the case. This isn't Sonic.  Mario characters don't have depth because they weren't meant for that in the first place. Even in the RPGs, the RPG exclusive characters is where the character depth came from. Series mainstays like Mario, Peach and Bowser were always kept simple and almost felt more like plot devices than characters themselves. The characters are already more shallow than Sonic's cast and have always been that way.

It's also worth noting that Mario, these days, isn't even handled by Miyamoto directly. As far as I can tell, no series besides Pikmin(one of the series with the most heavy amount of story/worldbuilding elements, ironically) and Starfox are under his jurisdiction. Miyamoto has been taking a back seat from gaming development for a while now to let the younger generation take control(hence original IPs like Splatoon popping up more often in recent years.) Even the new Mario games don;'t really get much input from him. There are speical cases like Sticker Star, but the vast majority of Mario games you see nowadays probably haven't been changed much by him. the mainline Mario game's lack of story elements seem come from a lack of ambition from the company as a whole on that front, which I guess is pretty disappointing, but it is Mario. When it was never really that big on these elements in the first place I can't really be too bothered.

You;'re also downplaying his significance when it came to actually building the mechanics of the games( by far the most important part) just because he disagreed with a few story elements which is pretty baffling on it's own. 

And at the end of it all you call for him to focus on the other, far more story heavy series like Zelda instead which kind of contradicts your whole point. Story elements are far more key to Zelda than they are to Mario. Are you calling for him to go strip those games those more complex games down instead and leave the already extremely simplistc Mario alone? I don't get it.

 

 

 

That's EXACTLY Sonic, minimalistic.

Nooooo no no no. He's always there with his two cents, always, and it appears everyone sheepishly obeys like a lap dog despite whatever arguments staff DO attempt with the man.

Yeah, the original RPG title on SNES, Paper Mario and Thousand Year Door and the earlier Mario and Luigi titles, lets be completely ignorant of these.

This is exactly why. he has the mindset for THAT series and OTHERS that story is key, so let him focus on them instead of forcing Mario to be the plot-less exception.

 

[Sean]

Alright this is getting pretty ridiculous.

Chris Knopps, do you have anything to contribute other than getting embarrassingly/hilariously angry at Nintendo for these made-up conspiracies in your head? Don't think we've forgotten how you acted in the 25th anniversary topic et al. Your vitriol is getting out of hand and heading in a predictable direction, so my suggestion is that you take a break from this thread and talk about something else more worth your time. You've already made it clear dozens upon dozens of times that you don't like how the Mario RPGs are turning out and now you're even bringing up your Sonic comparisons all over again. Give it a rest.

[Chris Knopps]

5 minutes ago, Sean said:

Alright this is getting pretty ridiculous.

Chris Knopps, do you have anything to contribute other than getting embarrassingly/hilariously angry at Nintendo for these made-up conspiracies in your head? Don't think we've forgotten how you acted in the 25th anniversary topic et al. Your vitriol is getting out of hand and heading in a predictable direction, so my suggestion is that you take a break from this thread and talk about something else more worth your time. You've already made it clear dozens upon dozens of times that you don't like how the Mario RPGs are turning out and now you're even bringing up your Sonic comparisons all over again. Give it a rest.

I'm doing nothing more than stating my opinions on the matter. I'm not sure of why it is my thoughts seem to be a "shut up" topic, as has been the case with Hog already towards my own opinions.

Is negativity against the rules also? That is my question. If so I will avoid it. Otherwise it's simple free speech. Being against something is not "shut up" worthy.

[JezMM]

I'm as upset that we don't have another TTYD-esque door as anyone, and I do disagree with Wraith that the main series characters were just plot devices, as pretty much 90% of the depth these characters do have are fueled by their representation in the RPGs.  But once we start throwing such utter disrespect towards Miyamoto, a man who is not perfect but has contributed colossal innovations and mindsets in game design to the world, and kickstarted the whole concept of having a story in an action game in the first place, I'm so out.

 

Especially when it can be fairly safely assumed that he has not had a major role on Colour Splash due to working on Splatoon and Star Fox Zero.

[Sean]

You've already posted your opinions dozens of time. Not only are you constantly repeating yourself (and you even quoted Jez's recent post not saying anything else other than "this"), but now you're raving like a fucking tin-foil hatter about how Miyamoto is ruining Nintendo and should retire. Keep that shit on GameFAQs, not here. And frankly we're sick of your Mario/Sonic conspiracy comparisons that have ruined past discussions. I am not going to let you continue this charade under that tripe "I'm just expressing my opinions" shield.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Sean said:

You've already posted your opinions dozens of time. Not only are you constantly repeating yourself (and you even quoted Jez's recent post not saying anything else other than "this"), but now you're raving like a fucking tin-foil hatter about how Miyamoto is ruining Nintendo and should retire. Keep that shit on GameFAQs, not here. And frankly, we're sick of your Mario/Sonic conspiracy comparisons that have ruined past discussions. I am not going to let you continue this charade under that tripe "I'm just expressing my opinions" shield.

Fine, I'll be more "positive" and avoid Miyamoto then. I don't understand the God treatment revolving him, but I will avoid him.

My gripes at their core stem from the battle system which has been far too warped from what it once was, the lack of partners, and the "map travel" system akin to Mario World.

The only thing I want at the end of it all is a real sequel to Thousand Year Door and nothing more, a hope commonly shared by many.

[Dejimon11]

5 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I'm as upset that we don't have another TTYD-esque door as anyone, and I do disagree with Wraith that the main series characters were just plot devices, as pretty much 90% of the depth these characters do have are fueled by their representation in the RPGs.  But once we start throwing such utter disrespect towards Miyamoto, a man who is not perfect but has contributed colossal innovations and mindsets in game design to the world, and kickstarted the whole concept of having a story in an action game in the first place, I'm so out.

 

Especially when it can be fairly safely assumed that he has not had a major role on Colour Splash due to working on Splatoon and Star Fox Zero.

Thank you. I am getting so sick and tired of the Miyamoto hate within the last few year, yeah the guy has made mistakes guess what he's a human being it bound to happen but man it gotten ridiculous. 

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Dejimon11 said:

Thank you. I am getting so sick and tired of the Miyamoto hate within the last few year, yeah the guy has made mistakes guess what he's a human being it bound to happen but man it gotten ridiculous. 

It's not that I hate him outright. His ideals with Zelda and other franchises are akin to my own. I just don't like how Mario is the exception to ideals I'd like to see in the Mario franchise as well, especially in the RPG series.

I look forward to his works on other projects because they're always so much more fresh. I want that same originality in Mario again, that's all. Especially in the spin-off franchises.

[Zaysho]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Fine, I'll be more "positive" and avoid Miyamoto then. I don't understand the God treatment revolving him, but I will avoid him.

You know something, I'm getting REALLY fucking sick of this.

Nobody is saying you can't be critical, but there is no reason to downplay Miyamoto's entire career because of a decision you didn't like. Check the passive aggressive attitude and move on.

[Sean]

Okay I think we're done here. We're not talking about this any further and if you have a problem with our actions then you can contact an admin.

[sonicgirl313]

So... to try to change the subject toward a more positive note, what are people's thoughts on the paint aspect?

It seems like an interesting gameplay element if done so correctly. The whole adding colors actually remind me of the Mario Tennis minigame where you had to hit balls of paint and color the picture. Perhaps different colored paint can do different things to the environment. I'm not completely sure how the paint works since I only saw so little of it in the main trailer and I have yet to watch the Japanese trailer.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I don't see why people are hating on Miyamoto. I have as much respect for the man as I do for Iwata. He's one of the leading heads of the game industry, and one of the very few developers who have managed to make consistently good games. It's a big reason why I get rather annoyed when I hear people start taking the shit out of Splatoon despite all of the critical acclaim it got at release actually.

I won't deny that whatever is happening to Paper Mario is stupid, and it takes a huge chunk of what an RPG is meant to be in the first place, but stop acting like Miyamoto is some kind of horrible person in the industry. Considering in the span of six years, we've have Galaxy 2, Skyward Sword, Splatoon, Star Fox Zero, A Link Between Worlds, and so many more. 

[Dantemustdie00]

The visuals are really good at the least, the most papery it's been, I'm trying to imagine the first two PM games in this style and it makes me drool some.

I'm sure the music of the game will be good as well, music in PM games has always been good.

[Dee Dude]

I said this in my latest status update so I'm gonna say it here.

I just thought of something: 
Maybe the reason we don't get TTYD styled Paper Mario games anymore is because maybe Nintendo feels the story driven games don't really fit the current PM style they're going for now. Perhaps the reason turn-based PM gameplay is no longer a thing because maybe we already have the Mario & Luigi games for that? If the M&L series has stories, original important characters and classic RPG gameplay then perhaps it's possible Nintendo wants Mario & Luigi to represent that main aspect while Paper Mario becomes it own thing. 

Let's be honest here. If a new M&L game was for a console, had original partners, creative soundtracks, and an epic story, we would technically have a TTYD like game in our hands minus the paper designs and gimmicks which to be fair, I don't mind losing in favor of the regular designs. 

So do you think the TTYD aspects should transfer their way to the Mario & Luigi games and let Paper Mario go in it's current direction? 
I wouldn't mind this happening, it would probably be for the best. 

[Autosaver]

On 3/6/2016 at 0:19 PM, Wraith said:

People calling for Miyamoto to retire over this one instance of misdirection when he's been on point for most of his career is pretty irksome.  

Honestly, I like experimental Nintendo. A lot of people complain that other series (PS4/XB1) are always the same and this even extends to Nintendo with Mario and Zelda. That they all rely on a formula.

Nintendo still pushes a story heavy and RPG heavy Mario series, Mario vs Luigi. I don't see anything wrong with Nintendo not having 30 RPGs that play incredibly similar and instead trying to innovate. Sure they might mess up but it seems like this game tries to fix what was wrong with Sticker Star.

[Chris Knopps]

Which came first, Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi?

Thank you.

That aside, partners wouldn't work the same in Mario and Luigi I don't think. And it's a narrow minded path to take, stripping away most core elements of one RPG series just because another, much LESSER series exists on handhelds, whereas Paper Mario was always the go-to console RPG series.

Mario and Luigi has always been a great series, but I don't find it anywhere near Paper Mario.

[StaticMania]

After a quick check, I can provide the information that the Paper Mario series...did come first both in development and release, as well as the staff who worked on those games started Intelligent Systems before others started AlphaDream.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

On 3/5/2016 at 0:12 AM, Chris Knopps said:

Quoting glitch. 

Ahem,  Paper Mario and the M&L series are obviously not identical in structure or gameplay,  but @Chris Knopps , is there any reason why you're resorting to trying to belittle the latter as "narrow-minded " and "lesser", without any proper backing to that assertion?

You're not going to try and use the fact that Paper Mario came out as first, as something to try and slander the M&L series as a fraudulent derivative off of Paper Mario,  are  you? 

[Zaysho]

23 hours ago, Autosaver said:

Nintendo still pushes a story heavy and RPG heavy Mario series, Mario vs Luigi. I don't see anything wrong with Nintendo not having 30 RPGs that play incredibly similar and instead trying to innovate.

I'd hardly call Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi "incredibly similar." They do share certain characteristics, sure, but their systems are distinct enough from each other. While both focus on good timing or exploiting certain enemy weaknesses (more so with Mario & Luigi, I feel), they go about things in a different way. Paper Mario is a more straightforward turn-based system, with strategy dependent on your active partner and the badges you have equipped (Mario's skills change depending on what's equipped and one boss in TTYD is even weakened by a certain SFX badge). Mario & Luigi is also turn-based, but has a more active, faster paced system that requires the player to pay close attention to enemy patterns to counter, dodge, or perform special attacks and making full use of Mario and Luigi's movements, as their actions are mapped to different buttons. It uses badges, but they aren't quite as essential as Paper Mario, but are useful for bypassing difficult or annoying enemy defenses (e.g. spike enemies).

I should add that it's been a while since I've really sat down and played a Paper Mario (I replayed TTYD in bursts about a year ago, but I have been meaning to do a full playthrough), and I just recently have been playing through Superstar Saga (near the end) but even at just a quick glance I wouldn't say they're all that similar beyond a few core traits.

I don't think the issue is really innovation or experimentation so much as certain ideas seeming tacked on or just not working, and ultimately not being well-received because of that. But if Color Splash is using the same system, it does mean there's an opportunity to Intelligent Systems to build upon and fix the problems I've heard Sticker Star had (I'd like to reiterate that I haven't played it so I'm only going off of what others have told me, and what I know about the development like Intelligent Systems' decision to cut back on story--Miyamoto mostly suggested they stick to the core Mario characters, IIRC, so I admit I misspoke earlier in the topic). So, hopefully it works out and is a better received game.

 

18 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

That aside, partners wouldn't work the same in Mario and Luigi I don't think. And it's a narrow minded path to take, stripping away most core elements of one RPG series just because another, much LESSER series exists on handhelds, whereas Paper Mario was always the go-to console RPG series.

 

3 hours ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Ahem,  Paper Mario and the M&L series are obviously not identical in structure or gameplay,  but @Chris Knopps , is there any reason why you're resorting to trying to belittle the latter as "narrow-minded " and "lesser", without any proper backing to that assertion?

I presume he means "narrow-minded" in that changing the structure of one RPG series while leaving the other alone, despite them existing in their own spaces and being pretty different already. Assuming that is the mindset Nintendo had with the change in direction of Paper Mario, anyway (which is hard to say, I think). That said, Knopps, you can do this without putting down another series because the series you like isn't doing what you want.

[Dejimon11]

21 hours ago, Autosaver said:

Honestly, I like experimental Nintendo. A lot of people complain that other series (PS4/XB1) are always the same and this even extends to Nintendo with Mario and Zelda. That they all rely on a formula.

Nintendo still pushes a story heavy and RPG heavy Mario series, Mario vs Luigi. I don't see anything wrong with Nintendo not having 30 RPGs that play incredibly similar and instead trying to innovate. Sure they might mess up but it seems like this game tries to fix what was wrong with Sticker Star.

I get what your saying but I think in the case of Paper Mario it's so far attached that what made people love the series in the first place to the point where if you want to something drastically new/experiment with Mario your better off making a new RPG series in that case but I digress. After watching Gamexplain's analysis of this game I'm somewhat more interested in this to see if they will improve upon the sticker star formula.

[Chris Knopps]

45 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

"narrow-minded" in that changing the structure of one RPG series while leaving the other alone, despite them existing in their own spaces and being pretty different already. Assuming that is the mindset Nintendo had with the change in direction of Paper Mario, anyway (which is hard to say, I think). That said, Knopps, you can do this without putting down another series because the series you like isn't doing what you want.

Essentially this. If the same mechanics for battle and leveling up continue to work well in Mario and Luigi there is no reason I can see whatsoever to strip out said mechanics from Paper Mario, which Mario and Luigi took the battle system from, to where Mario and Luigi is the only series of the two which follows the set system of the series leaving Paper Mario to struggle/suffer with fans and critics because it's the test-tube child of the company now.

And apologies, it's just the matter of one using an argument like having Mario and Luigi as the reason Paper Mario doesn't need this/that, especially when it did said things first. You don't create a franchise, form expectations for how everything works, then suddenly strip all that and say FTW on everything for the sake of reinventing the wheel which still works fine without said reinventing.