Paper Mario Color Splash

[JaidynReiman]

Paper Mario's formula was very solid and is far different from Mario & Luigi. I really don't know why they needed to change it. I think Super Paper Mario was fine for a spinoff, it still kept the core attributes even if it did make it a platform RPG instead of the traditional RPG. From what I've heard about Sticker Star, though, despite having an actual battle system its nothing like Paper Mario originally was.

It looks like Color Splash may be closer than Sticker Star, at least, but it still seems to be a huge deviation.

[Sean]

I also can't help but note the hypocrisy that Sticker Star's prototype was changed due to Miyamoto commenting on it just being another TTYD, and then they go ahead and make another Sticker Star, a game that happened because they were trying to avoid past samey-ness

[sonicgirl313]

I heard the reason they scrapped the story in Sticker Star wasn't because of Miyamoto but actually a survey they had done in Japan where they asked a group of people what they would like to see in the next Paper Mario and when they asked if they liked a deep plot or not, the majority answered that they could care less for the story, leaving them to believe most people weren't interested in the story and would rather just play the game.

[Salamander]

1 hour ago, sonicgirl313 said:

I heard the reason they scrapped the story in Sticker Star wasn't because of Miyamoto but actually a survey they had done in Japan where they asked a group of people what they would like to see in the next Paper Mario and when they asked if they liked a deep plot or not, the majority answered that they could care less for the story, leaving them to believe most people weren't interested in the story and would rather just play the game.

Close.  It was actually Club Nintendo surveys failing to rate the story of Super Paper Mario as interesting, as disclosed in the following Iwata Asks.

[sonicgirl313]

1 minute ago, FFWF said:

Close.  It was actually Club Nintendo surveys failing to rate the story of Super Paper Mario as interesting, as disclosed in the following Iwata Asks.

Ah thanks, my memory was slightly blurry so I couldn't remember it exactly.

[Strickerx5]

Miyamoto is probably one of the most important people in this industry. His accomplishments can not be understated as his pioneering is basically responsible for the great games we have today. He even continues to produce fantastic games as well. Honestly, I could probably think of a multitude of reasons why he deserves to be written in history books at this point. That being said, I would be lying if I said I don't understand where some are coming from when it comes to his influence in the story department. Hear me out here. Yes, the man has had his fair share of successes in this realm too but at what point do they gain ground when Mario continues to be the front runner for the whole "games don't need a story" argument? I'm not saying that Miyamoto is responsible for this entirely (or even by a large percentage). More along the lines of what we know from a couple of previous details making it debatable. I'd like to bring attention to the whole Galaxy 2 fiasco. I'll be the first one to admit that the game was fantastic even without the vibe Galaxy 1 brought to the series but even then it still feels like it could have been more. Dropping the story aspects from Galaxy 1 and choosing to seemingly abridge an already light plot didn't win Miyamoto any points from people who actually like a good story; myself included.

Though, keep in mind we can only go off of what we know from various interviews so we may never know exactly what went down for any game's development and who being responsible for certain aspects lacking. So, hating on Miyamoto isn't called for whatsoever but ignoring previously known details also isn't the best thing to do either.

With all that being said, I don't think Color Splash's "problem" (I'm doing the quote thing because we still don't even know if this game will be bad here) has much to do with Miyamoto at all. Like previous people have said, the man has his own games to worry about so I doubt he even has a hand in this at all. Sure, the developers of Sticker Star might have been persuaded by a higher up (Miyamoto) to do things that ended up not being the best option (though that seems to be a long going problem within Nintendo itself that deserves a topic in itself... but not here) but that doesn't mean he's to blame for what's happening here. This is an entirely new project. The problem here is that the developers seemingly chose to pursue the same style of gameplay that already got lackluster reviews. It's like knocking over someone's cup of coffee on accident but then doing it again on purpose the next day. They should have known better and, if the game doesn't end up being good because of it, deserve all the blame here.

Also, as a side note, I love the fact that Nintendo hasn't even posted any of the gameplay from the direct onto their Youtube channel yet. Most of the other games (even Federation Force... though they disabled the like bar...) got a separate video but not Color Splash. Sort of gives off the feeling that they know they've messed up.

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, Strickerx5 said:

Miyamoto is probably one of the most important people in this industry. His accomplishments can not be understated as his pioneering is basically responsible for the great games we have today. He even continues to produce fantastic games as well. Honestly, I could probably think of a multitude of reasons why he deserves to be written in history books at this point. That being said, I would be lying if I said I don't understand where some are coming from when it comes to his influence in the story department. Hear me out here. Yes, the man has had his fair share of successes in this realm too but at what point do they gain ground when Mario continues to be the front runner for the whole "games don't need a story" argument? I'm not saying that Miyamoto is responsible for this entirely (or even by a large percentage). More along the lines of what we know from a couple of previous details making it debatable. I'd like to bring attention to the whole Galaxy 2 fiasco. I'll be the first one to admit that the game was fantastic even without the vibe Galaxy 1 brought to the series but even then it still feels like it could have been more. Dropping the story aspects from Galaxy 1 and choosing to seemingly abridge an already light plot didn't win Miyamoto any points from people who actually like a good story; myself included.

Though, keep in mind we can only go off of what we know from various interviews so we may never know exactly what went down for any game's development and who being responsible for certain aspects lacking. So, hating on Miyamoto isn't called for whatsoever but ignoring previously known details also isn't the best thing to do either.

With all that being said, I don't think Color Splash's "problem" (I'm doing the quote thing because we still don't even know if this game will be bad here) has much to do with Miyamoto at all. Like previous people have said, the man has his own games to worry about so I doubt he even has a hand in this at all. Sure, the developers of Sticker Star might have been persuaded by a higher up (Miyamoto) to do things that ended up not being the best option (though that seems to be a long going problem within Nintendo itself that deserves a topic in itself... but not here) but that doesn't mean he's to blame for what's happening here. This is an entirely new project. The problem here is that the developers seemingly chose to pursue the same style of gameplay that already got lackluster reviews. It's like knocking over someone's cup of coffee on accident but then doing it again on purpose the next day. They should have known better and, if the game doesn't end up being good because of it, deserve all the blame here.

Also, as a side note, I love the fact that Nintendo hasn't even posted any of the gameplay from the direct onto their Youtube channel yet. Most of the other games (even Federation Force... though they disabled the like bar...) got a separate video but not Color Splash. Sort of gives off the feeling that they know they've messed up.

Ooohh that's a good one... Gotta "write that down" as the Queen once said.

And no... I don't think that's the reason.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the western Nintendo branches not JUST RECENTLY release a questionnaire online, Facebook I think, asking fans something about which Paper Mario game and/or features were their favorite? I'm more than certain TTYD won by a long shot.

Feel free to correct me, but I know that poll/questionnaire was done not too far back.

And yet... Color Splash still happened. Que sera, oy veh, and all that melodramatic jazz.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

I can get not liking the looks of Color Splash, but it goes beyond jumping the gun when you're already condemning it as a point in one of your arguments like that,  @Chris Knopps.

[Zaysho]

4 hours ago, Strickerx5 said:

Also, as a side note, I love the fact that Nintendo hasn't even posted any of the gameplay from the direct onto their Youtube channel yet. Most of the other games (even Federation Force... though they disabled the like bar...) got a separate video but not Color Splash. Sort of gives off the feeling that they know they've messed up.

Don't they only do this for either live demos (E3, typically) or actual trailers? I don't recall them ever taking content from their Directs and putting it up separately; typically they add a chapter list to the existing Direct and any trailers are made available separately.

I wouldn't read all that heavily into it. The like bar being disabled on Federation Force's trailer sounds far more troubling to me, and I don't even play Metroid games.

49 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the western Nintendo branches not JUST RECENTLY release a questionnaire online, Facebook I think, asking fans something about which Paper Mario game and/or features were their favorite? I'm more than certain TTYD won by a long shot.

Feel free to correct me, but I know that poll/questionnaire was done not too far back.

Digging around, I believe the "poll" you're referring to was this facebook post asking people what their favorite Paper Mario game was (this was back in July 2014). It didn't seem like anything serious or indicative of what they were planning.

[Chris]

34 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the western Nintendo branches not JUST RECENTLY release a questionnaire online, Facebook I think, asking fans something about which Paper Mario game and/or features were their favorite? I'm more than certain TTYD won by a long shot.

Feel free to correct me, but I know that poll/questionnaire was done not too far back.

And yet... Color Splash still happened. Que sera, oy veh, and all that melodramatic jazz.

Colour Splash has probably been in development since just after Sticker Star launched. Any polls from the last six months (at least) would be used for future installments at best.

Though I wasn't aware of this poll. I'd love to see the results if they were public.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Zaysho said:

Don't they only do this for either live demos (E3, typically) or actual trailers? I don't recall them ever taking content from their Directs and putting it up separately; typically they add a chapter list to the existing Direct and any trailers are made available separately.

I wouldn't read all that heavily into it. The like bar on Federation Force's trailer sounds far more troubling to me, and I don't even play Metroid games.

Digging around, I believe the "poll" you're referring to was this facebook post asking people what their favorite Paper Mario game was (this was back in July 2014). It didn't seem like anything serious or indicative of what they were planning.

Still, all things considered I'd think it would play a greater roll in decisions with the next game.

I will say with any luck Nintendo will heed the general feedback thus far and find some way to alter the battle system of the game. It's too late for partner cast of course, but surely there's a way to do something about how the battles work?

[Zaysho]

Unless Nintendo delays the game, and I don't really think they have a great incentive to do so, I fail to see why they'd go to the trouble of altering something that's been set in stone for at least a year, two at the most. At this point, just hope it's better.

I'm not defending any decisions here, but I'm trying to be realistic.

A survey--a serious one--might actually play a role in decisions down the line, especially if the lack of any response about Super Paper Mario's story in the Club Nintendo survey has anything to do with Intelligent Systems' decision to dial back the story. Going by the Iwata Asks interview, the script writer had the same idea before they even went to Miyamoto, who suggested the same thing anyway. It might help if, for these types of games, they actually ask about the story, because I don't remember Club Nintendo surveys touching on things like this but rather the overall experience, so it's not surprising some might have focused on gameplay when responding.

[Chris Knopps]

1 hour ago, Zaysho said:

Unless Nintendo delays the game, and I don't really think they have a great incentive to do so, I fail to see why they'd go to the trouble of altering something that's been set in stone for at least a year, two at the most. At this point, just hope it's better.

I'm not defending any decisions here, but I'm trying to be realistic.

A survey--a serious one--might actually play a role in decisions down the line, especially if the lack of any response about Super Paper Mario's story in the Club Nintendo survey has anything to do with Intelligent Systems' decision to dial back the story. Going by the Iwata Asks interview, the script writer had the same idea before they even went to Miyamoto, who suggested the same thing anyway. It might help if, for these types of games, they actually ask about the story, because I don't remember Club Nintendo surveys touching on things like this but rather the overall experience, so it's not surprising some might have focused on gameplay when responding.

Well... To say the least it seems they're trying to mimic TTYD plot wise.

But dialing back plots in EVERY game in the Mario franchise won't do much for it in the end. Even the latest Paper Jam game suffered from this.

Plot is nearly nonexistent in main titles nowadays, and with every RPG title, be it Paper Mario or Mario and Luigi, seems to be suffering from the "story is bad" syndrome while in the meantime other series is getting AAA treatment plot wise.

I dunno... Plots in general have been an issue with me as of late. If you ask me fun first plot second is a terrible mindset because while fun game play is great, without anything BUT that in every single title, no matter what spin-off it's about, I see a very boring future ahead for Mario fans no matter the source you turn to.

The games have been fun, but you don't feel... Involved with them so much anymore. It's like hanging out at an arcade then calling it a day. There's no real investment in the games. Just a quick visit to pass time, then it's over with. I don't like that kind of future for Mario.

[Diogenes]

I remember how bored I was playing SMB, SMB2, SMB3, SMW, and SM64 without a bunch of dialogue and cutscenes.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

I remember how bored I was playing SMB, SMB2, SMB3, SMW, and SM64 without a bunch of dialogue and cutscenes.

Uhh... That's not the best argument to bring up in a Paper Mario thread... aka an RPG thread...

[Nepenthe]

19 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I remember how bored I was playing SMB, SMB2, SMB3, SMW, and SM64 without a bunch of dialogue and cutscenes.

These kinds of comebacks where you boil people's arguments down into snippy sentences that are almost if not completely divorced from the context of the actual argument at hand stopped being cute years ago.

[StaticMania]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Uhh... That's not the best argument to bring up in a Paper Mario thread... aka an RPG thread...

Well that's true, but it's not really worth bringing up the main Mario games lacking story when they don't really need it and never really have. 

 

I mean, the true wants here are exceptionally decent writing for the RPGs and those games only. It's like a must have, so it sure is understandable that the lacking story of Sticker Star is...a problem, maybe.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I remember how bored I was playing SMB, SMB2, SMB3, SMW, and SM64 without a bunch of dialogue and cutscenes.

Irrelevant. They're two different genres of game, with two different stances on storytelling. There's a big difference between a Platformer, in which there is constant action and that is a selling point, and a RPG in which they are commonly known for having a bigger and better plot. Trying to generalise entire arguments as "Just a bunch of dialogue and cutscenes" is just missing the point entirely.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

And besides, it's not fair to condemn platformers themselves to the realm of not having as much story either.

11 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I remember how bored I was playing SMB, SMB2, SMB3, SMW, and SM64 without a bunch of dialogue and cutscenes.

Now, now, now that group of games is lop-sided in regards to dialogue and cutscenes. In the case of Super Mario 64, there actually was a notable increase in dialogue, and at least for the DS remake, definitely cutscenes, so it's really not on the mark to say that the platform games themselves are devoid or as lacking as they used to be, of that, especially as they evolve over time.

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

And besides, it's not fair to condemn platformers themselves to the realm of not having as much story either.

At least you could rationalize that with the idea that platformers are pretty snappy/fast paced and are usually minimalist on purpose so there's no fluff that kills the pacing. With an RPG, you know the player is going to be going at a slower pace and likely reading a lot of text regardless, so it makes sense at that point to devote more time to story.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Well obviously more often than not, a platformer's not gonna have as heavy an emphasis on story as an RPG for the sake of pacing. Though, I feel I should've re-worded that opening part of my statement, to more so automatically condemning platformers as practically devoid of story.

So, point taken, @Wraith.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 hour ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

And besides, it's not fair to condemn platformers themselves to the realm of not having as much story either.

Now, now, now that group of games is lop-sided in regards to dialogue and cutscenes. In the case of Super Mario 64, there actually was a notable increase in dialogue, and at least for the DS remake, definitely cutscenes, so it's really not on the mark to say that the platform games themselves are devoid or as lacking as they used to be, of that, especially as they evolve over time.

Don't get me wrong. I love platforming stories. I love games like Ratchet, Sly, Jak etc. My point simply is Mario, and platformers in general are able to get away with it due to their much heavier focus on gameplay. An RPG, which is generally just roaming around, getting into a battle, and roaming around again does not have that. That's why story is one of the biggest selling points, because a great story can keep you entertained until the next battle.

[Diogenes]

My point is that the idea that we need some arbitrarily large "plot" to be engaged with a game is obviously false, because the series became basically the biggest thing in gaming with a plot that is little more than "dragon captures princess".

On top of that, the vast majority of games are terrible at telling stories in a way that's appropriate to the medium. Platformers, yes, but RPGs too; they are almost inevitably reliant on text dumps and cutscenes that have no interaction with or similarity to the gameplay. Games don't need more story focus, they need to learn how to tell the story within their medium.

[Wraith]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

On top of that, the vast majority of games are terrible at telling stories in a way that's appropriate to the medium. Platformers, yes, but RPGs too; they are almost inevitably reliant on text dumps and cutscenes that have no interaction with or similarity to the gameplay. Games don't need more story focus, they need to learn how to tell the story within their medium.

"Gameplay" in an RPG is more often than not you selecting things from a menu. This is one genre where text dumps and the like make more sense. I agree that you shouldn't really do that in a platformer, but I don't think anyone's really asking for that. I feel like there's no definitive way to tell a story in a game. Just do what best fits your genre. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Yes, Platformers got away with a lackluster plot, and managed to become such a big name in gaming. As already established, there is a much different expectancy from RPGs in terms of stories.