In Defence of Boost

[Regulus]

Hi everyone, I've been a Sonic fan for many years, but I feel like my views are very unusual compared to other Sonic fans. One such view that I think is unusual is my approach to 'Boost'. Whilst most fans do like Generations, I would say that the majority of the hardcore fans don't want the 'Boost Formula' to return or to continue to be explored as it does not play similar to either the Classic Sonic formula or the Sonic Adventure formula (Sonic's gameplay).

I'm going to try to make this as concise as possible so to save all our time. 

I would agree that the 'Boost' formula does not play like the Classic Sonic formula or the Sonic Adventure formula. However, that said, I would say that this should not disqualify the 'Boost' formula from existing. Just because it plays differently does not mean that the 'Boost' formula is inherently bad. In fact, the 'Boost' formula is well-tuned, unlike anything else on the market, captures Sonic's sense of speed and flows very well and keeps a consistently fast pace.

I would argue that the 'Boost' formula is an excellent game formula and that Sonic Team moving away from it in Lost World was a grave mistake. 

Whilst I have no problem with the Classic Sonic formula or Sonic Adventure formula, I would like to see Sonic Team continue in the direction they went down with Sonic Generations's Modern Stages and see how they can further improve the game 'formula'.

I'm curious to see what everyone here thinks  

[Badnik Mechanic]

4 minutes ago, Regulus said:

I'm curious to see what everyone here thinks  

How to win some of the levels in Sonic games which use boost.

Take a coin.

Place it over the boost button.

Tape it down.

Leave controller alone. 

Come back when the level is over.

How to win at the others. 

Do the above.

Sometimes press jump.

Whilst I like the boost being in the game, the problem is that it really makes the game stupidly easy and gives the false impression of the player being 'good' at the game. I don't need to worry about 90% of all the enemies in the game since I have a move which I can use right from the start of the level which doesn't really run out which makes me beat the level in a quick time and... I won't die. At least not at enemies.

Thats... not that great a design mechanic. 

Whilst I like the boost, it really needs to change dramatically so it doesn't become 'I can't play games, push this button' mode.

[Regulus]

20 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

How to win some of the levels in Sonic games which use boost.

Take a coin.

Place it over the boost button.

Tape it down.

Leave controller alone. 

Come back when the level is over.

How to win at the others. 

Do the above.

Sometimes press jump.

There's only really Green Hill in Generations Modern where you literally can place a coin to boost through and win, although I get that this is hyperbole to get across the point that Boost is perhaps too automated and involves too little player input, a point I actually agree with.

I would say that linearity isn't necessarily a bad thing, which is why I argue that the speed stages in Adventure 2 have far better level design than Adventure 1. So I don't have a problem with the linearity of stages like Speed Highway and Chemical Plant. But in regards to the automation, that's due to flaws in level design rather than the 'Boost Formula' as a mechanic. Something you yourself have said is responsible for the problem.

Even so,  I do think that criticisms of automation are overblown in the face of the Boost levels in Generations. Which levels in Generation, aside from Green Hill, are particularly atrociously automated? I think they all do a pretty decent job of handing automated spectacles and more involved gameplay.

25 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

Whilst I like the boost being in the game, the problem is that it really makes the game stupidly easy and gives the false impression of the player being 'good' at the game. I don't need to worry about 90% of all the enemies in the game since I have a move which I can use right from the start of the level which doesn't really run out which makes me beat the level in a quick time and... I won't die. At least not at enemies.

It's really not different to the fact the spindash made you invincible to the majority of the enemies in the Classic series. The only difference is that Boost is faster paced and more intuitive. 

[Sonictrainer]

Personally, I think Rolling, Spin Dashing, Boosting, and Parkour could exist together.

There were Enemies in Unleashed that can stop Sonic even when he's boosting, so it's not hard to stop the Boost from being overpowered. We could also make it work similarly to Boost Mode in Sonic Advance 2, where you have to be going a certain speed to activate it instead of just pressing a Button to go fast.

I would prefer being in control of Sonic when he does acrobatic skills and special actions instead of doing a QTE and hope I don't fail and fall into a pit.

[Diogenes]

10 minutes ago, Regulus said:

I would agree that the 'Boost' formula does not play like the Classic Sonic formula or the Sonic Adventure formula. However, that said, I would say that this should not disqualify the 'Boost' formula from existing. Just because it plays differently does not mean that the 'Boost' formula is inherently bad.

The argument isn't that being different makes it inherently bad, the arguments are that, 1: it is so different that it does not provide what a lot of fans are looking for, 2: Sega/Sonic Team can't reasonably support every iteration of "Sonic" they've tried just because they each have some fans, and also 3: boost gameplay is bad taken on its own.

For point 1, that the boost gameplay has a blue hedgehog who goes fast does not make it a sufficient substitute for the gameplay that attracted me to the series. I didn't fall in love with this series just because it was fast, but because it offered room to play with his speed. His speed existed on a continuum; how fast you went depended on your skill and how you chose to play, and levels were wide and intertwined enough that different approaches could lead to different routes and different solutions. Boost gameplay, on the other hand, usually mandates either boosting speed or a modest jog depending on the section, with effectively no in-between, and no use of mechanics to gain that speed besides "press boost button". Even if I were to accept that they could both be good, they provide very different experiences, and the boost experience is not what I came here for.

For point 2, accepting that not everyone will be satisfied with the boost, the apparent solution would be to give everyone what they want; a game for the Classic fans, a game for the Adventure fans, a game for the Boost fans, a game for the Parkour fans, a game for the Boom fans...except that Sonic Team doesn't have an infinite amount of time, money, and energy to make all these games. On top of that, it would mean each game was only courting a fraction of the fanbase, and thus only getting a fraction of the potential profit compared to a game that can appeal to multiple groups. Splitting the fanbase just isn't a smart option.

And for point 3, given that we can't have everything, what do we choose? The way I see it, the boost gameplay is a poor choice. It's inefficient, as acknowledged by Sonic Team themselves, and evidenced by how it's always needed to be combined with some "cheaper" style like the werehog or 2.5D platforming to pad it out to a somewhat reasonable length. I also find it to be incredibly limited, with the excessive focus on speed that the boost is designed for leaving little room for any other aspects of gameplay besides raw reflex or memorization based actions. And it's not just a matter of adding in more platforming; Generations tried this, and ended up with a game that competes with itself, alternating between brief spurts of the same shallow boost gameplay and shallow platforming that most of boost Sonic's abilities are not useful in. Alternatively I think there's a lot more depth to be wrung out of the Genesis mechanics, since they allow for more control, more degrees of freedom, and less automated gameplay.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I find the boost gameplay very shallow in my opinion and generally a cheap way to gain speed. 

[Knuggles]

I think the boost would work better as a short power up i.e the speed sneakers. I'm not too keen on 80% of Sonic's gameplay consisting of boosting into a straight path and nothing much else.

EDIT: Or they could use the "single bursts of speed" from Unleashed for the Wii.

[FriendBot]

If for any reason the Boost gameplay should stay, I feel it needs to reworked so Sonic Team can have some wiggle room to try different with the gameplay instead of making a secondary gameplay to accommodate decent time length.

As I always say, I feel the Boost Mode from Advance 2 and 3 is the perfect compromise. You have to go fast enough to reach top speed but of course, you have to be skilled enough to keep that speed going. And when you're in Boost Mode, you have near invincibility of the original Boost.

And that's the Soni-ceritified, 100% fool proof method of making the Boost an actual good gameplay style. I'll see my check in the mail SEGA.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

I still to this day, find that the boost was best implemented in UnWiished where it was limited to bursts, and in Colors where it wasn't nearly as easy as say Generations, to rack up the boost meter, so you had to use it more wisely.

[Indigo Rush]

I think the Boost gameplay and mechanic is fun - but it lacks the depth that previous Sonic games had. It's a bit of a one-trick-pony; as such, I think it fits best as a handheld excursion similar to the Rush games and Colors DS. They're great for quick on the go fun, and there shouldn't be pressure to pad the game out. Besides which, I'm still wanting a proper Sonic Rush 3, and the only major difference is how the boost meter is filled (tension vs rings) and the lack of behind-the-back quick-stepping and drifting sections, which can easily translate to any handheld console currently on the market.

Dimps would probably end up making them, true, and Generations 3DS was lacking; but they were also pressured for time like never before, so I have to wonder what they could put together given better resources and more time to develop the game. But that's just my opinion. I still think Classic Sonic (and I include the best parts of Adventure 1/2 with that) gameplay is king, and should be Sonic Teams primary go-to for future outings; but Boost games are fun as well; I don't want them gone forever, but I don't want them at the expense of no Classic (2D or hypothetical 3D) is all.

 

[LATER BUDDY]

I always thought that being a reward for making a correct jump to a higher/more difficult area and etc. should grant you a faster potential top speed upon landing until you decide to stop or something else decides for you to stop lmao. This would exactly reward you on good skill while ramping the difficulty the higher your speeds go (of course to like a soft cap or something to not make it unplayable). The risk and reward pays off in higher speeds granting chance to further and possibly higher areas at the cost of your reaction time really. Just make the speed increases minimal and probably only available and activate on a dead sprint so platforming isn't hair-pulling of course haha.

But yeah that'd be my idea to grant break-neck Sonic speeds with more aim at skill and control. Just throw in rolling and shit on top of that idea and we got a Sonic game with a bunch of variables and interesting gameplay :v. And honestly holding down to go into a roll should be your "I want to plow easily into every enemy." It makes you commit into an attack while at the same time requiring the player to react to a situation and not just hold boost to shred into any threat ahead effortlessly. Hell, maybe add "tap down again in a roll to start running again" feature or something similar to get back to running instead of just running out of momentum or being forced to jump to get back on your feet.

[Azul]

5 hours ago, Detective Hogfather said:

Whilst I like the boost being in the game, the problem is that it really makes the game stupidly easy and gives the false impression of the player being 'good' at the game. I don't need to worry about 90% of all the enemies in the game since I have a move which I can use right from the start of the level which doesn't really run out which makes me beat the level in a quick time and... I won't die. At least not at enemies.

"Doesn't really run out" is the wrong set of words. Half of the pressure comes from keeping the boost gauge up by destroying enemies, collecting rings and performing tricks in succession. You make it sound like it's available anytime you conveniently need it when filling it up is dependant in actions of the player and doing so actually does require skill. You not dying and beating levels quickly is less of a direct result of the presence of the boost and more you being at least a decent player.

4 hours ago, True Detective Soni said:

As I always say, I feel the Boost Mode from Advance 2 and 3 is the perfect compromise. You have to go fast enough to reach top speed but of course, you have to be skilled enough to keep that speed going. And when you're in Boost Mode, you have near invincibility of the original Boost.

That would literally make the game "press forward to win" which is already something many fans feel is an issue with Boost Mode in the first place. And in the first place, it takes skill in any Sonic game to keep consistant speed.

Not trying to shove my opinion down anyone's throat. Just felt the need to point out the flaws in these premises.

Actual Post: I enjoy Boost Mode very much. It gives me a much better sense of speed compared to his normal running and I like that it forces me to do more than run and jump.

 

[StaticMania]

Just now, Azul said:

"Doesn't really run out" is the wrong set of words. Half of the pressure comes from keeping the boost gauge up by destroying enemies, collecting rings and performing tricks in succession. You make it sound like it's available anytime you conveniently need it when filling it up is dependant in actions of the player and doing so actually does require skill. You not dying and beating levels quickly is less of a direct result of the presence of the boost and more you being at least a decent player.

Besides Sonic Colors, running out of Boost in say...Unleashed or Generations isn't very likely. Because enemies give you boost energy, enemies are always placed in your way and you're invincible to enemies...as well as the amount of rings you'll pass by and attract because of the pull. Then even in Generations you got boost by doing tricks. Having no boost aside from the start of a level, just isn't gonna happen.

Just now, Azul said:

That would literally make the game "press forward to win" which is already something many fans feel is an issue with Boost Mode in the first place. And in the first place, it takes skill in any Sonic game to keep consistant speed

The boost mechanic from Advance 2 wouldn't make the game "press forward to win", it would not be any different from trying to keep up your pace in the classic games. Except there's extra incentive to do so, but it's not too big a problem if you don't. It's not like that boost effect will make you invincible towards spikes or make reacting to other obstacles easier.

 

Actually the real problem with this is that...even if done properly, gaining the boost effect would be done by rolling most of the time and since it just imitates the effect of rolling, it would be kind of useless. There'd be no reasons to jump out of a roll and there wouldn't nor shouldn't be straightaways long enough or empty enough to reach that speed.

[JezMM]

I've sort of given up defending boost because I always agree with Diogenes' critiques of it yet still find it fun and the most satisfying 3D Sonic experience regardless.  I don't even know why and I expect it's a combination of lots of things beyond just the gameplay itself, namely the satisfaction of blasting through a detailed, believable envioronment at unbelievable speeds, something that could be done with or without the boost.  My basis for this is that Sonic Simulator in Colours was boring as hell, while, even though they are braindeadly easy compared to Unleashed and Generations, the main levels in Colours are still enjoyable due to their spectacle (albeit limited).

For what it's worth though, Sonic gameplay in ANY of the three boost games had more platforming stuff going on than his gameplay in the widely regarded Sonic Adventure 2.  The only real difference with the fast bits is that in Sonic Adventure 2 you had to jump to kill enemies in your way (if you could even react fast enough to the bullshit ones).

 

I will say this though, despite how Rush and Rush Adventure get praised, I personally feel the boost, if it should be anywhere, it should only be in 3D, or at least 2.5D.  Without the ability to tilt the camera to look further ahead than a typical 2D camera provides, there can be no strategy to using it.

12 hours ago, Detective Hogfather said:

How to win some of the levels in Sonic games which use boost.

Take a coin.

Place it over the boost button.

Tape it down.

Leave controller alone. 

Come back when the level is over.

How to win at the others. 

Do the above.

Sometimes press jump.

Whilst I like the boost being in the game, the problem is that it really makes the game stupidly easy and gives the false impression of the player being 'good' at the game. I don't need to worry about 90% of all the enemies in the game since I have a move which I can use right from the start of the level which doesn't really run out which makes me beat the level in a quick time and... I won't die. At least not at enemies.

Thats... not that great a design mechanic. 

Whilst I like the boost, it really needs to change dramatically so it doesn't become 'I can't play games, push this button' mode.

Are you also one of the players who complains when ACTUALLY doing this causes you to die in 99% of the levels though, coz those players sure are a thing.  Completing a whole level of Unleashed "with a coin taped over the boost button" would be incredibly difficult beyond Windmill Isle.

[Azul]

4 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Besides Sonic Colors, running out of Boost in say...Unleashed or Generations isn't very likely. Because enemies give you boost energy, enemies are always placed in your way and you're invincible to enemies...as well as the amount of rings you'll pass by and attract because of the pull. Then even in Generations you got boost by doing tricks. Having no boost aside from the start of a level, just isn't gonna happen.

Except it can and does. Like Hogfather, you're making it seem more convenient than it really. There are entire sections that are completely devoid of rings or enemies and getting hit right before them or respawning in one is a pain in the ass.

4 hours ago, StaticMania said:

The boost mechanic from Advance 2 wouldn't make the game "press forward to win", it would not be any different from trying to keep up your pace in the classic games. Except there's extra incentive to do so, but it's not too big a problem if you don't. It's not like that boost effect will make you invincible towards spikes or make reacting to other obstacles easier.

 To achieve boost in SA 2-3, you have to hold forward long enough. As what he considers a compromise, Soni proposed SA's boost mechanic with Sonic Rush+'s boost invincibility, making the game even easier, or harder depending on your skill, especially if you remove Quick Step. There wouldn't be any extra incentive since all you have to do to maintain the highest speed is press forward while avoiding certain obstacles.

[Regulus]

13 hours ago, Diogenes said:

The argument isn't that being different makes it inherently bad, the arguments are that, 1: it is so different that it does not provide what a lot of fans are looking for, 2: Sega/Sonic Team can't reasonably support every iteration of "Sonic" they've tried just because they each have some fans, and also 3: boost gameplay is bad taken on its own.

1. Granted, I appreciate that a lot of Classic and Adventure fans won't like Boost, but that said, I feel that a studio should design a game that they envisage, rather than try to please fans. I get that's probably unpopular, and this ties into...2. I agree, but I don't think Sonic Team should be supporting iterations of Sonic because of fans. 3. I'd disagree with that, I'll get onto it in a second.

13 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I didn't fall in love with this series just because it was fast, but because it offered room to play with his speed. His speed existed on a continuum; how fast you went depended on your skill and how you chose to play, and levels were wide and intertwined enough that different approaches could lead to different routes and different solutions. Boost gameplay, on the other hand, usually mandates either boosting speed or a modest jog depending on the section, with effectively no in-between, and no use of mechanics to gain that speed besides "press boost button". Even if I were to accept that they could both be good, they provide very different experiences, and the boost experience is not what I came here for.

 Hm, I disagree with this to an extent. Generations requires the player to know when to use Boost and how to manage the Boost Bar. For example, if you just Boost at every opportunity in Sky Sanctuary, Speed Highway, Seaside Hill, Rooftop Run and City Escape you won't actually be going at optimal speeds. You need to know when to use Boost, drift, side-step, jog and platform. I argue that Boost is good because it's unique, fast and captures a 'speedrun' atmosphere well, which the old Sonic games tried to go for.

As for Boost not being for you, that's a shame, but again, I don't feel Sonic Team should make games for fans. I feel that 'Boost' does capture the spirit of Sonic, that is speed, platforming, Sonicy set-pieces e.t.c. 

13 hours ago, Diogenes said:

For point 2, accepting that not everyone will be satisfied with the boost, the apparent solution would be to give everyone what they want...except that Sonic Team 

I don't think Sonic Team should be appeasing any parts of the fanbase.

13 hours ago, Diogenes said:

The way I see it, the boost gameplay is a poor choice. It's inefficient, as acknowledged by Sonic Team themselves, and evidenced by how it's always needed to be combined with some "cheaper" style like the werehog or 2.5D platforming to pad it out to a somewhat reasonable length. 

I agree that Boost is expensive, but I have no problem with it being dialled back a bit ala Colours. 

[StaticMania]

Just now, Azul said:

Except it can and does. Like Hogfather, you're making it seem more convenient than it really. There are entire sections that are completely devoid of rings or enemies and getting hit right before them or respawning in one is a pain in the ass.

It Is that convenient, they throw rings at you in those games and enemies are almost always in the way of you when boosting as to give you more boost energy. You should never not have rings in those games, they may have toned it down a bit in Generations, but it's still there. If you're getting hit, it's because you didn't have good enough reflexes while you're boosting. These games are only a challenge on the reflexes and they can only decently challenge your reflexes if you're boosting. Any actual platforming in these games is too basic to be difficult.

Just now, Azul said:

To achieve boost in SA 2-3, you have to hold forward long enough. As what he considers a compromise, Soni proposed SA's boost mechanic with Sonic Rush+'s boost invincibility, making the game even easier, or harder depending on your skill, especially if you remove Quick Step. There wouldn't be any extra incentive since all you have to do to maintain the highest speed is press forward while avoiding certain obstacles.

To achieve the boost in Advance 2 and 3, you have to pass a certain speed cap. You can do this by running long enough, rolling fast enough, or hitting a booster. That it would make you invincible to enemies is enough of an incentive, you don't lose the effect by slowing down you lose it by coming to a complete stop. Keeping up a constant flow of progression isn't a new thing, but the added effect will make you more likely to want to. Also the level design shouldn't allow for a long period of time where you're holding down one direction. Good level design should challenge your ability to keep the boost.

[Azul]

9 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

It Is that convenient, they throw rings at you in those games and enemies are almost always in the way of you when boosting as to give you more boost energy. You should never not have rings in those games, they may have toned it down a bit in Generations, but it's still there. If you're getting hit, it's because you didn't have good enough reflexes while you're boosting. These games are only a challenge on the reflexes and they can only decently challenge your reflexes if you're boosting. Any actual platforming in these games is too basic to be difficult.

 

1 hour ago, Azul said:

There are entire sections that are completely devoid of rings or enemies and getting hit right before them or respawning in one is a pain in the ass.

You're making it seem like you're constantly in Boost Mode the entire level without having to put in effort. Getting hit isn't as simple as avoiding obstacles while boosting since it doesn't protect you from spikes, laser attacks, lava, getting flattened, etc. Having good reflexes is up to the player.

14 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

To achieve the boost in Advance 2 and 3, you have to pass a certain speed cap. You can do this by running long enough, rolling fast enough, or hitting a booster. That it would make you invincible to enemies is enough of an incentive, you don't lose the effect by slowing down you lose it by coming to a complete stop. Keeping up a constant flow of progression isn't a new thing, but the added effect will make you more likely to want to. Also the level design shouldn't allow for a long period of time where you're holding down one direction. Good level design should challenge your ability to keep the boost.

This version of the Boost Mode is much easier to use since it's literally holding forward long enough without getting hit or stopping and eliminates the convenience of boosting whenever you want as long as the gauge is filled like when you're riding on a bobsled, in a high speed stream of water, etc. And rolling actually slows you down unless you're going down a hill. Also, slowing down does get rid of the boost mode in SA. Not immediately but it does happen after a while. Your notion on good level design can be applied to either of these but this combination of boosts would eliminate the need for tricks and the extra incentive for destroying enemies or collecting rings unless you're one of those people who's actually concerned about score. Additionally, Hedgehog Engine physics aren't as gravity centric as the Advanced games are: jumping would slow you down a bit, especially at the highest point. It would drastically change the game and take away much more than it adds, which is nothing really.

[sonicDX]

Personally I have no problem with all the gameplay formulas. I think they worked (mostly) perfectly in all games. I am not sure which formula is the best to use, but in my opinion it depends on the game. I would be interested to see them all in one game...

[Diogenes]

2 hours ago, Regulus said:

1. Granted, I appreciate that a lot of Classic and Adventure fans won't like Boost, but that said, I feel that a studio should design a game that they envisage, rather than try to please fans.

Then one, you've got no grounds to criticize them for moving away from the boost unless you think they were somehow coerced into it, and two, they shouldn't be putting Sonic's face on a game that they have no intention of making like Sonic.

Quote

Hm, I disagree with this to an extent. Generations requires the player to know when to use Boost and how to manage the Boost Bar.

Minimally. Once the player understands the boost/platforming split and where they can get boost energy from, it's practically trivial.

Quote

I argue that Boost is good because it's unique, fast and captures a 'speedrun' atmosphere well, which the old Sonic games tried to go for.

Speedrunning isn't the only thing the Genesis games existed for.

Quote

As for Boost not being for you, that's a shame, but again, I don't feel Sonic Team should make games for fans. I feel that 'Boost' does capture the spirit of Sonic, that is speed, platforming, Sonicy set-pieces e.t.c. 

If you don't want Sonic Team listening to the fans, what does it matter what you think?

Quote

I agree that Boost is expensive, but I have no problem with it being dialled back a bit ala Colours. 

Colors didn't fix the boost. Yes it was slower and fuel was a bit more scarce, but it still fell into the exact same traps, the boost-based sections were linear and shallow, the 2D platforming sections were limited by the lack of relevant mechanics, and most of the game was composed of the latter.

[StaticMania]

Just now, Azul said:

 

You're making it seem like you're constantly in Boost Mode the entire level without having to put in effort. 

I actually said the exact opposite. I said the games are only challenging when you are boosting, because only then can the levels actually test your reflexes. None of the obstacles come at you fast enough to be challenging when you aren't boosting. If you aren't boosting, you remove all of the challenge...you still have to put in effort, it just doesn't keep you on your toes. Ya know?

Just now, Azul said:

 

This version of the Boost Mode is much easier to use since it's literally holding forward long enough without getting hit or stopping and eliminates the convenience of boosting whenever you want as long as the gauge is filled like when you're riding on a bobsled, in a high speed stream of water, etc. And rolling actually slows you down unless you're going down a hill. Also, slowing down does get rid of the boost mode in SA. Not immediately but it does happen after a while. Your notion on good level design can be applied to either of these but this combination of boosts would eliminate the need for tricks and the extra incentive for destroying enemies or collecting rings unless you're one of those people who's actually concerned about score. Additionally, Hedgehog Engine physics aren't as gravity centric as the Advanced games are: jumping would slow you down a bit, especially at the highest point. It would drastically change the game and take away much more than it adds, which is nothing really.

I didn't say it would be harder to use, the point is the level design makes it harder to keep. Sure rolling slows you down in the straightaway, but that wasn't the point either. Rolling fast enough down a slope gets boost...and okay while slowing down in Advance may get rid of the boost after a while, isn't the obvious solution to immediately start picking up the pace, because it actually won't go away if you get to movin' quickly again. I don't know if this is still the case in the Advance games but, letting go of the d-pad while jumping would reduce the amount of speed you'd lose, but in the Advance, once you get the boost jumping wouldn't get rid of it and as long as you were still moving it wouldn't go away.

 

I mean there's also this: The natural level design of a 2D Sonic game dictates that you'd end losing the boost at some point if the level requires you to slow down for some platforming. So no matter how easily you can get the boost,  you can't keep throughout the entire level. It'll just help get through the level slightly faster.

[Regulus]

43 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Then one, you've got no grounds to criticize them for moving away from the boost unless you think they were somehow coerced into it, and two, they shouldn't be putting Sonic's face on a game that they have no intention of making like Sonic.

Hmm, I think that Boost still plays like Sonic. Granted, it plays very differently to the Classic and Adventure titles, but it still plays fast, is a platformer, and features all the Sonic setpieces and iconic items.

44 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Minimally. Once the player understands the boost/platforming split and where they can get boost energy from, it's practically trivial.

Speedrunning isn't the only thing the Genesis games existed for.

I don't think its minimal, it's just a very different formula to Classic and Adventure. You can't just hold Boost to win even the most simple of levels. I know its hyperbole to express dissatisfaction with automation, but I think the whole 'hold X to win' is very overblown. The levels still need to played through like any other game, there's a lot less automation than people make out and the best levels in Generations are far more complex than any level in Adventure 1 or 2. It's like the way people claim Classic Sonic is hold right to win or that Adventure Sonic hold up to win. It's true at the most basic level, but it is also a massive oversimplification.

And I only used the speedrunning example as one thing I think it's really good for. The Boost levels are very fluid, well-paced and technically impressive and unique. Of course, they can still be improved on, that's why I'd like to see Sonic Team build on Boost.

50 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If you don't want Sonic Team listening to the fans, what does it matter what you think?

Colors didn't fix the boost. Yes it was slower and fuel was a bit more scarce, but it still fell into the exact same traps, the boost-based sections were linear and shallow, the 2D platforming sections were limited by the lack of relevant mechanics, and most of the game was composed of the latter.

It's fun to discuss my opinion of Sonic with fellow fans like you. And I don't think Sonic Team takes fan input that seriously anyway, which is why the fanbase is so dissatisfied with the direction of the series. That or they do try to please fans and fail horribly.

As for Colours, I actually prefer the Generations format. But if we are talking purely about efficiency, which I agree is a problem with Boost, then levels can be scaled down like Colours. I'm not actually calling for a level design like Colours to be adopted e.t.c. I'm purely talking about scaling the speed down and nerfing Boost somewhat.

 

[Azul]

15 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I actually said the exact opposite. I said the games are only challenging when you are boosting, because only then can the levels actually test your reflexes. None of the obstacles come at you fast enough to be challenging when you aren't boosting. If you aren't boosting, you remove all of the challenge...you still have to put in effort, it just doesn't keep you on your toes. Ya know?

I could argue that the game is significantly easier during boost mode. But you know what I'd be achieving? Nothing. Because that is based solely on my experience with the game and doesn't necessarily represent the objective truth since various people have different grasps of the game. You ever not be quick enough to avoid a falling spike strip? Or lack enough speed to jump dash over a gap?

20 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I didn't say it would be harder to use, the point is the level design makes it harder to keep.

 

1 hour ago, Azul said:

Your notion on good level design can be applied to either of these

 

23 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Sure rolling slows you down in the straightaway, but that wasn't the point either. Rolling fast enough down a slope gets boost...and okay while slowing down in Advance may get rid of the boost after a while, isn't the obvious solution to immediately start picking up the pace, because it actually won't go away if you get to movin' quickly again. I don't know if this is still the case in the Advance games but, letting go of the d-pad while jumping would reduce the amount of speed you'd lose, but in the Advance, once you get the boost jumping wouldn't get rid of it and as long as you were still moving it wouldn't go away.

What does "picking up the pace" even mean? Pressing forward harder? While rolling, you slow down until you stop completely and the only way to regain momentum is by lightly jumping so you can start up your running animation. And yes, the last sentence is true but what is that adding?

[StaticMania]

Just now, Azul said:

What does "picking up the pace" even mean? Pressing forward harder? While rolling, you slow down until you stop completely and the only way to regain momentum is by lightly jumping so you can start up your running animation. And yes, the last sentence is true but what is that adding?

"Picking up the pace" means to get running again so you can reach top speed...again. Dodging obstacles and platforming platforms slows you down, but if you're in boost mode then you're most likely trying to get through this faster rather than taking it slow, which would be easier.

 

While dodging obstacles, there are bound to be straightaways that'll let you pick up speed or atleast some decent length platforms that you can run on. Timing jumps so that you won't slow down too much.

That last sentence is about how even though jumping slows you down, it doesn't matter.

 

If you're asking what this "new" boost adds...I said earlier that it doesn't add nothing because it's just another roll, since all it does is make you hurt enemies and you move slightly faster. It only works in a 2D game and in 2D Sonic level design, any time you're going fast, it's most likely by rolling or some small spectacle speed section which stops you anyway at the end.

[azoo]

I've said this a hundred million times and I'm sure everyone else in here has said it by now, considering the huge quote pyramids before my post, but to put it simple.

Boost has a myriad of problems. It has little to no mechanical depth (press X to fast/invincible), it's too easy to gain / too hard to lose, requires two other buttons just to move around correctly with it, pigeonholes the gameplay into straight foward speed running with little to nothing else, and makes clearing a several-miles-long stage take about 3 minutes tops (thus blowing a lot of effort on such little content).

That's not to say it isn't exhilarating or fun when used in a really good game, but it doesn't give much room for the game to do anything other than what boost was built for. It's a severe limiter on what Sonic Team or anybody at all can do with the gameplay, and it pales in comparison to rolling thanks to how rolling is a flexible and simple maneuver with deceivingly complex mechanics, while boosting is the total opposite. Plus, it's been there since day one, which is the bigger reason why people argue it shouldn't have been canned in favor of this.

If another boost game came around though, I wouldn't complain much at all if it was well designed around it (and gave me a lot of content so that I didn't feel like I was missing anything (in other words, like Unleashed)), but I would still be a little disappointed.