In Defence of Boost

[Azul]

14 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah, I only three because you were talking about quick stepping and the boost's control limitations, not the entire gameplay package. Any quick step section degenerates into choosing one of (usually) 3 lanes, which is "mechanical depth" on par with those shitty LCD handheld games, not the kind of thing that a modern 3D platformer should be aiming for. And none of your other abilities in a boost game meaningfully change that.

They are still actions you can do in Boost Mode. The way you say it makes it seem like Quick Stepping is a Boost Mode exclusive move. The QSSs are only one section of gameplay and don't represent the totality of what the Boost Mode is capable of, nevermind that boosting isn't necessary in those sections. You're making it seem like it is Sonic Dash, which is basically an entire game of nonstop running, when it's only one relatively short section of shifting gameplay styles. Additionally, there's a huge difference with being only able to run, jump, slide, and move to the side and having all of those on top of being able to drift, homing attack, boost whenever you have fuel in the gauge as opposed to only when it's full. Same difference between "it's" and "its." The entire Sonic Dash comparison is a hyperbole trying to pass itself off as a valid argument.

14 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Wow, you almost got it here. Yes, that is about all you can do with a mechanic like the boost: produce shallow, shitty gameplay.

Opinions don't strengthen arguments. Neither do baseless claims.

14 hours ago, Diogenes said:

"Accurate physics" aren't actually worth a damn if they don't result in compelling gameplay.

Again, this is an opinion. I can just say "No, it is compelling," but that doesn't prove anything. And it weakens my credibility as a speaker.

14 hours ago, Azoo said:

True, but it doesn't justify anything for people who don't see why Sonic is able to instantaneously go into and retain speeds up to 300mph with little repercussions. 

It's his superpower. The only repercussions are a draining Boost Gauge and the potential running into shit you weren't quick enough to notice but those are really the only flaws in traveling at high speeds. Besides, 300mph is a snails pace for Sonic. Again, how can you argue for an accurate portrayal of his abilities? What more do you want?

14 hours ago, Azoo said:

Also true, but it's balanced in different ways depending on where you look.

For example, the classics are at least thirded by speed, platforming and exploration. The Adventure games are closer to between half about speed and the other two in quarters.

And boost gameplay is more like 75%-80% speed, with platforming taking up most of the remaining pie, and exploration somewhere in the lower end of the single digits.

So yeah. Speed has always been a vital part to it, but it's grown so important over the other elements that Sonic's a completely different beast now. There's a reason the brand is so commonly thrown under "gotta go fast" and where everyone collectively forgot rolling in a ball was even a thing.

This is mostly true. They have placed greater importance on speed but it doesn't entirely overshadow the exploration and platforming sections to that extent. Especially when you consider some routes, notably in Colors, get you Cs at most. Actually, speed running in Colors doesn't get you S ranks. It forces you to destroy enemies, collect rings, red or otherwise, and use the Wisp abilities as much as you can which always involves taking different paths. 

Also, boosting doesn't take up 75-80% of the gameplay. Boosting is one thing you can do. If it feels like it takes up that much space, it's because you're using it that often. Think about this: how often are you actually forced to boost?

14 hours ago, Azoo said:

No other Sonic games make platforming and slower paced areas feel as sluggish, irritating and borderline punishing thanks to how the mechanics are as fine tuned to top speed movement, though. Once again, attached to my above statement.

Sonic Rush-Adventure, Sonic Unleashed, Colors, and Generations are the only games that meet your requirements.

13 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Except it doesn't decimate any obstacle in your path, it only stops enemies from being a threat. Spikes, springs, and bottomless pits are all still hazards to be wary of even when you have the boost mode.

 

15 hours ago, Azul said:

decimates almost any obstacle in their path.

 

13 hours ago, StaticMania said:

You say atleast you can choose when to use the Unleashed Boost, but that's why it makes the game easier. You don't earn it, you just choose when activate it and there's almost never a reason not to use it.

 By choose, I mean you can do it whenever you want as long as you have fuel in the gauge. And actually, you do have to earn it since it's not self-sustaining or unlimited. You get it by collecting rings, destroying enemies, and successfully doing tricks. Heck, in Rush it goes down when you get hit. Additionally, using it is mostly up to the player. If you can point out which kind of sections actually require boost mode and compare it to those which don't, I may have a reason to consider your statement.

14 hours ago, StaticMania said:

With the Advance style Boost mode, you don't have a choice...it'll just happen and you have to be skilled enough to keep it going. You literally won't be able to keep the boost mode throughout the level, so there's a difference there

Here's a major point you're missing with the Advance boost:

20 hours ago, Azul said:

 it'd be achieved by pressing forward long enough without getting hit or stopping. So basically, you're achieving the same thing that people were already complaining about in the first place except, again taking cues from Sonic Advance, it can be achieved at any point in the game and the addition of rings only makes it easier to achieve. And judging from how ring plentiful the games have been as of late, this would actually make the games even easier, which is the exact opposite of what everyone who's expressed distaste for it wants.

Also, with the current boost, you literally can't maintain it throughout an entire level unless you use it wisely. Even the extended boost runs can run out on a straight away. This notion is just an exaggeration everyone arguing against the boost is falling back on because it makes the unchallenging gameplay argument much easier to use.

14 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Also, this isn't about the levels being difficult, that's another thing entirely.

You were the one who brought up challenging level terrain. And challenging ties directly into difficulty. 

14 hours ago, StaticMania said:

This is about the level design challenging your ability to keep the boost mode active. Being able to react and memorize where obstacles are so they don't slow you down. It's purely for replayability and maybe speedrunning.

For the final time:

16 hours ago, Azul said:

...challenging level design is something that can be addressed with either Boost Mode. Actually, that's one solution to the issue at hand: making levels that challenge your use of Boost Mode.

 

[azoo]

1 hour ago, Azul said:

This is mostly true. They have placed greater importance on speed but it doesn't entirely overshadow the exploration and platforming sections to that extent. Especially when you consider some routes, notably in Colors, get you Cs at most. Actually, speed running in Colors doesn't get you S ranks. It forces you to destroy enemies, collect rings, red or otherwise, and use the Wisp abilities as much as you can which always involves taking different paths. 

Also, boosting doesn't take up 75-80% of the gameplay. Boosting is one thing you can do. If it feels like it takes up that much space, it's because you're using it that often. Think about this: how often are you actually forced to boost?

It's not about the game forcing you to boost the entire time. It's about the game encouraging it. And by encouraging it, I mean beating you on the head with it. Repeatedly.

Every stage is designed (minus the parts where there's just flat platforms for platforming sake) straightaways or tight corridors laden with dash pads, ramps, springs, ring hoops, cannons, rails, directional-shooty-things, etc, the main point slammed into your subconscious mind is to go super fast at all times, and that's all they think you're gonna want to do, hence why when you slow down there's really nothing to gain. Your point is to go as fast as possible and not slow down, because slow = not good enough = git gud, and what do you think is the easiest and near-about safest way to go fast in one of those games?

Think about it. :v

It's only doubled by how two out of three of the games that use it (Unleashed and Generations) base rankings almost completely on completion time. As for Colors, a lot of people find the platforming sections sluggish and irritating because the game has conditioned you to nothing but fastfastfast for the whole game, and then forces you to slow down and take on platforming that isn't even remotely Sonic-y. Which is also why people (including myself) find Colors' ranking system kinda duff, because with a gameplay style that conditions you to go fast, the rankings being repositioned to being about doing other things too (as well intentioned as it is) comes off as counterintuitive.

Either way, I've said about all I can say, and I'm convinced you're not going to be convinced my way, because you have your opinion as figured out as I do. We're gonna just have to agree to disagree here.

[Regulus]

48 minutes ago, Azoo said:

Either way, I've said about all I can say, and I'm convinced you're not going to be convinced my way, because you have your opinion as figured out as I do. We're gonna just have to agree to disagree here.

What do you think of the game using Boost sparingly for setpieces or for Special Stages?

Or do you think the game would just be better off without them entirely?

[azoo]

I'd say leave it as a reward for getting Super Sonic. If there's one thing Lost World got undoubtedly right, I think it's that. 

[StaticMania]

Just now, Azul said:

By choose, I mean you can do it whenever you want as long as you have fuel in the gauge. And actually, you do have to earn it since it's not self-sustaining or unlimited. You get it by collecting rings, destroying enemies, and successfully doing tricks. Heck, in Rush it goes down when you get hit. Additionally, using it is mostly up to the player. If you can point out which kind of sections actually require boost mode and compare it to those which don't, I may have a reason to consider your statement.

"As long as you have fuel" isn't a factor, because while it may not be self-sustaining, it's certainly not going to run out with how many rings and enemies they place in front of you. You're not worried about keeping your boost meter up in those games, you're worried about being able to react to stuff while boosting.

 

Just now, Azul said:

Here's a major point you're missing with the Advance boost:

 It'd be achieved by pressing forward long enough without getting hit or stopping

I already addressed this before too, I said that with the right mind-set in designing levels, there should never be an actual place in the level where you can just hold foward and there's nothing to slow you down or even stop you at times. With this in mind, you have to try to keep up a flow in order to maintain the boost, which once again won't happen unless you replay levels. You can't just breeze through a level your first time in a Sonic game.

 

Just now, Azul said:

You were the one who brought up challenging level terrain. And challenging ties directly into difficulty. 

 

For the final time:

 

...challenging level design is something that can be addressed with either Boost Mode. Actually, that's one solution to the issue at hand: making levels that challenge your use of Boost Mode.

Levels that challenge use of the boost mode, that's what I was getting at. The difficulty from that is memorizing the things that slow you down, from minor annoyances like springs to actual hazards like...springs. Things that'll catch any first time player off guard, but you learn to bypass them with ease to complete levels faster.

[Azul]

7 hours ago, Azoo said:

It's not about the game forcing you to boost the entire time. It's about the game encouraging it. And by encouraging it, I mean beating you on the head with it. Repeatedly.

Every stage is designed (minus the parts where there's just flat platforms for platforming sake) straightaways or tight corridors laden with dash pads, ramps, springs, ring hoops, cannons, rails, directional-shooty-things, etc, the main point slammed into your subconscious mind is to go super fast at all times, and that's all they think you're gonna want to do, hence why when you slow down there's really nothing to gain. Your point is to go as fast as possible and not slow down, because slow = not good enough = git gud, and what do you think is the easiest and near-about safest way to go fast in one of those games?

Think about it. :v

Out of all of those things listed, only the dash pads place emphasis on speed. The other things only serve as transportation to different sections of the level not accessible by running. The placement of those things can actually serve as a reminder that you shouldn't try to speed past the level or else you'll run into something that will slow you down, harm you, or outright kill you. Sure, completing the stage as fast as you can is a primary objective but at the same time, you have to be conscientious about the environment. It is encouraged that you go as fast as you can but it's even more encouraged that you be mindful about what's ahead of you, as with all Sonic games. Simply put, slowing down can stop you from getting killed.

 

8 hours ago, Azoo said:

It's only doubled by how two out of three of the games that use it (Unleashed and Generations) base rankings almost completely on completion time. As for Colors, a lot of people find the platforming sections sluggish and irritating because the game has conditioned you to nothing but fastfastfast for the whole game, and then forces you to slow down and take on platforming that isn't even remotely Sonic-y. Which is also why people (including myself) find Colors' ranking system kinda duff, because with a gameplay style that conditions you to go fast, the rankings being repositioned to being about doing other things too (as well intentioned as it is) comes off as counterintuitive.

Is the Colors ranking system based off of score? Sounds like it. But that

Here's an issue: You only think you're supposed to maintain maximum speed the entire level. It is encouraged that you try to complete the level as fast as you can but saying it have to be a top speed the entire time is flat out wrong. Nothing's encouraging you to boost as much as you can and in fact with the addition of certain level designs and obstacles, spamming the boost without thinking ahead will most definitely do you more harm than good.

8 hours ago, Azoo said:

Either way, I've said about all I can say, and I'm convinced you're not going to be convinced my way, because you have your opinion as figured out as I do. We're gonna just have to agree to disagree here.

I'm not trying to change your mind. You're entitled to an opinion. But I am trying to point out the flaws your reasoning behind your justifications.

7 hours ago, StaticMania said:

"As long as you have fuel" isn't a factor, because while it may not be self-sustaining, it's certainly not going to run out with how many rings and enemies they place in front of you. You're not worried about keeping your boost meter up in those games, you're worried about being able to react to stuff while boosting.

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say you've never been in a position where you ran out of boost while you're in or right before a long, empty straight away or. Again, you're exaggerating. The levels aren't as ring or enemy heavy as you're making it out to seem.

7 hours ago, StaticMania said:

I already addressed this before too, I said that with the right mind-set in designing levels, there should never be an actual place in the level where you can just hold foward and there's nothing to slow you down or even stop you at times. With this in mind, you have to try to keep up a flow in order to maintain the boost, which once again won't happen unless you replay levels. You can't just breeze through a level your first time in a Sonic game.

First of all, you totally can breeze to a Sonic level the first time you play it. Usually, the first one.

Second, you're proposing a function that isn't available until you play a level for the second time which, unless it's an unlockable, prevents you from playing the game to its full potential. Why should you have to play a stage for a second time, which doesn't even guarantee that you'll achieve it since according to you, it's based on skill,  to go at maximum speed?

Third, every mainstream Sonic game has portions of a level designed for picking up speed. Inevitably, there will be some uninterrupted running. However, those sections never last forever. 

[StaticMania]

Just now, Azul said:

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say you've never been in a position where you ran out of boost while you're in or right before a long, empty straight away or. Again, you're exaggerating. The levels aren't as ring or enemy heavy as you're making it out to seem.

I may be exaggerating in the case of Generations, where there was an adjustment made so that your meter would deplete faster. When doing a double check on the level design of Unleashed and Generations, I'd say that the amount of areas devoid of rings aren't exactly plentiful nor long enough to matter.

 

Just now, Azul said:

First of all, you totally can breeze to a Sonic level the first time you play it. Usually, the first one.

Second, you're proposing a function that isn't available until you play a level for the second time which, unless it's an unlockable, prevents you from playing the game to its full potential. Why should you have to play a stage for a second time, which doesn't even guarantee that you'll achieve it since according to you, it's based on skill,  to go at maximum speed?

Third, every mainstream Sonic game has portions of a level designed for picking up speed. Inevitably, there will be some uninterrupted running. However, those sections never last forever. 

I'm not really sure you can breeze through Sonic levels on your first try, 2D games specifically speaking. There's some newbieness in every first playthrough of a game.

 

Also the boost mode is available from the start, you just won't get as much mileage out of it your first time playing a level and probably won't keep it active very long. You tend to play stages more than once to familiarize yourself with the level, that's the only way you can speedrun anything.

 

In the Classic games, as well as Advance 1 and 3 any long speed section was usually a small spectacle moment for thrill. The moment they end they bring you to a stop for an easier time platforming. These sections never last long.

[azoo]

3 hours ago, Azul said:

Out of all of those things listed, only the dash pads place emphasis on speed. The other things only serve as transportation to different sections of the level not accessible by running. The placement of those things can actually serve as a reminder that you shouldn't try to speed past the level or else you'll run into something that will slow you down, harm you, or outright kill you. Sure, completing the stage as fast as you can is a primary objective but at the same time, you have to be conscientious about the environment. It is encouraged that you go as fast as you can but it's even more encouraged that you be mindful about what's ahead of you, as with all Sonic games. Simply put, slowing down can stop you from getting killed.

But their primary purpose is 90% of the time used to push you forward on the track. The only way to get to some of them (or use them correctly) on the first try is most likely to slow down (unless you're that good), sure, but the goal is still to use them to go forward as fast as possible after you git gud on multiple playthroughs. No ifs, ands or buts about it, that's the game and that's the purpose behind all of it. None of it is for exploration sake, or diverging paths (that last longer than 10 seconds, tops) or anything else.

The other 10% is often meant to hinder that, or kill you outright, but the focus remains the same: It's all about moving forward as quickly as possible. End of the line, really.

Quote

Is the Colors ranking system based off of score? Sounds like it. But that

Here's an issue: You only think you're supposed to maintain maximum speed the entire level. It is encouraged that you try to complete the level as fast as you can but saying it have to be a top speed the entire time is flat out wrong. Nothing's encouraging you to boost as much as you can and in fact with the addition of certain level designs and obstacles, spamming the boost without thinking ahead will most definitely do you more harm than good.

I'm not trying to change your mind. You're entitled to an opinion. But I am trying to point out the flaws your reasoning behind your justifications.

That's the most contrived way around that argument I've ever heard.

Let's look at it like this: 

When you are playing the classics, you are conditioned to weighty momentum based mechanics and have slopey and multi-tiered level design to accompany it. In 3D Mario you are conditioned to acrobatic jumping, power up using and exploration thanks to it's versatile mechanics, and the big-map-with-multiple-objective level design used to take advantage it. In Crash Bandicoot, you are conditioned to basic platforming and combat mechanics used best in a straight single-hallway level layout. In both 2D and 3D Zelda, your gameplay conditions you to expect lots of sword fighting, item/weapon using and nimbleness, and the sprawling overworlds and dungeons make use of that.

In a similar way, for boost games, you are conditioned to gameplay built for moving as fast as possible in environments that are way more often than not built for you to move as fast as possible in. Boosting and moving forward quickly is encouraged by the terrain's flat long stretches often covered in dash pads, by the objects placed in an obstacle course layout, by the linearity to the point of being a string of hallways and corridors with hairpin turns betwixt them, by the do-or-die action sequences, and by the boost being a slow-burning super speed god mode move on the primary action button.

This is not personal opinion or preference, this is fact. The gameplay is built a certain way to have level design that accommodates it, and you can't either tell me that's not true so that you can justify some invisible wall of game depth to me, nor can you tell me that it's unreasonable to think Colors' platforming sections or ranking system play against it's core with that same argument you're trying to pull on me.

I wouldn't have a problem with you trying to correct me if I was really looking at this with a heavy bias and no amount of reasoning, but I'm not. While preferring rolling/Spindashing, I've said time and time again that I actually really like boost gameplay, but I'm not afraid to call out either side on their design pros and cons. Especially if I feel like boost gameplay has a decent bit of problems.

You're trying to prod and point out flaws that aren't even there, so I'm not sure what there is to prove here. And that's why it's best we nip this in the bud right now.

[Regulus]

To be honest, I think the better level designs in Generations, like Sky Sanctuary and Seaside Hill, are in spite of Boost.

I think I actually like the level design in Generations rather than the Boost.

[shdowhunt60]

On 3/17/2016 at 9:07 PM, Diogenes said:

The problem is that I didn't see them going anywhere with it. They did nothing to integrate the boost with platforming. The sections where you used the boost stayed basically the same, shallow, linear, automated, borderline quick time events. And the platforming was dull and simplistic because the game's mechanics weren't actually designed around it, and usually all they did was throw in a few blocks for you to jump on. They had 3 games to prove they could unite the two, and they struck out.

Neither did the Classics. If you actually pick apart Sonic 3's level design, it's really just simplistic platforming with speedy bits where you watch the game go fast in between. And yet nobody dogs Sonic 3 for this, because the game is fucking brilliant.

[Azul]

20 hours ago, Azoo said:

That's the most contrived way around that argument I've ever heard.

Let's look at it like this: 

When you are playing the classics, you are conditioned to weighty momentum based mechanics and have slopey and multi-tiered level design to accompany it. In 3D Mario you are conditioned to acrobatic jumping, power up using and exploration thanks to it's versatile mechanics, and the big-map-with-multiple-objective level design used to take advantage it. In Crash Bandicoot, you are conditioned to basic platforming and combat mechanics used best in a straight single-hallway level layout. In both 2D and 3D Zelda, your gameplay conditions you to expect lots of sword fighting, item/weapon using and nimbleness, and the sprawling overworlds and dungeons make use of that.

In a similar way, for boost games, you are conditioned to gameplay built for moving as fast as possible in environments that are way more often than not built for you to move as fast as possible in. Boosting and moving forward quickly is encouraged by the terrain's flat long stretches often covered in dash pads, by the objects placed in an obstacle course layout, by the linearity to the point of being a string of hallways and corridors with hairpin turns betwixt them, by the do-or-die action sequences, and by the boost being a slow-burning super speed god mode move on the primary action button.

This is not personal opinion or preference, this is fact. The gameplay is built a certain way to have level design that accommodates it, and you can't either tell me that's not true so that you can justify some invisible wall of game depth to me, nor can you tell me that it's unreasonable to think Colors' platforming sections or ranking system play against it's core with that same argument you're trying to pull on me.

I wouldn't have a problem with you trying to correct me if I was really looking at this with a heavy bias and no amount of reasoning, but I'm not. While preferring rolling/Spindashing, I've said time and time again that I actually really like boost gameplay, but I'm not afraid to call out either side on their design pros and cons. Especially if I feel like boost gameplay has a decent bit of problems.

You're trying to prod and point out flaws that aren't even there, so I'm not sure what there is to prove here. And that's why it's best we nip this in the bud right now.

But here's the thing: You along with nearly everyone who's against the idea of boost are either persecuting it for something it's actually not or offering solutions that don't fix the problems you're complaining about it in the first place. You're the first one.

While it is irrefutable that the developers wanted you to use the boost as much as you can, can you honestly say they wanted you to use it the entire time you're playing? While there are some legitimate complaints such as being able to decimate enemies without having to try, the one consistent complaint that I've read is that it's a free pass through enemies, makes you complete the level faster which for some reason is a bad thing, and basically lasts the entire level. That last one wasn't an exaggeration on my part, I could directly quote it about 3 times. In spite of the fact that it does take effort and a little bit of thinking to maintain it, it's being treated as if it were legitimately a god mode hack. You don't have to like that it's an easy way to kill enemies, you don't have to like that it gets you to the goal faster than you'd like. But if you're going to complain about something, making it seem worse than it is ain't the right way to go about it.

What's a little irksome is that the general consensus is that it's invincible mode for the entire level when the reality is that actually being able to maintain the boost, especially for an entire level, revolves around economizing how much you use it at a time and successfully completing certain tasks while avoiding death which, in spite of what's been said actually does require effort. Nevermind that if you do constantly boost, the gauge will deplete no matter how long it is and it's actually impossible to maintain it indefinitely unless you're Super Sonic. You say it's a sure one way ticket to the goal because you feel like it lasts the whole level or because you feel like it's god-mode, and not because they actually are. But the reality is that you're just really good at the games. The gameplay does revolve around going as fast as you can and more often than not, that's going to involve using the boost. But the way you're going about it makes it seem like the games are forcing "gotta go fast" at every corner of the level and that automatically translates into boosting, in spite of the fact that there are many occasions where blindly doing so will hinder your progress.

The flaw in your argument is that you're treating boost mode as Super Sonic because you're skill has plateaued. It's mass exaggeration vehemently trying to pass itself on as fact. This is further highlighted by you calling it...

21 hours ago, Azoo said:

a slow-burning super speed god mode move on the primary action button.

when I could argue the jump button is the primary action button since it's used for a heck of alot more purposes than just jumping. Unless you've got another reason for referring to it via metaphor and hyperbole. The entire argument is based more on your feelings than objective fact and that, if you're trying to offer constructive criticism, is a very weak thesis.

On 3/18/2016 at 0:34 AM, StaticMania said:

I may be exaggerating in the case of Generations, where there was an adjustment made so that your meter would deplete faster. When doing a double check on the level design of Unleashed and Generations, I'd say that the amount of areas devoid of rings aren't exactly plentiful nor long enough to matter.

It matters if you run out of boost or died right before entering one, especially if you're speedrunning or just trying to beat your record.

On 3/18/2016 at 0:34 AM, StaticMania said:

I'm not really sure you can breeze through Sonic levels on your first try, 2D games specifically speaking. There's some newbieness in every first playthrough of a game.

What exactly is this based on? Just because you've never played it doesn't mean you can't ace it.  I've never had a problem with Leaf Forest from Sonic Advance 2, Emerald Beach from Sonic Adventure, City Escape, I could go on.

On 3/18/2016 at 0:34 AM, StaticMania said:

Also the boost mode is available from the start, you just won't get as much mileage out of it your first time playing a level and probably won't keep it active very long. You tend to play stages more than once to familiarize yourself with the level, that's the only way you can speedrun anything.

What do you mean "won't get as much mileage?" As in not use it as often? You're speaking as if one experience universally applies.

[Nepenthe]

You're arguing against strawman and it's annoying. Just in the second paragraph you burst out this little gem:

25 minutes ago, Azul said:

While it is irrefutable that the developers wanted you to use the boost as much as you can, can you honestly say they wanted you to use it the entire time you're playing? 

And this is several posts after Azoo said this:

On 3/17/2016 at 2:02 PM, Azoo said:

It's not about the game forcing you to boost the entire time.

So you're either not reading posts or you're putting words in people's mouths to argue against. Either way, stahp.

Quote

when I could argue the jump button is the primary action button since it's used for a heck of alot more purposes than just jumping.

This right here is also pedantry of the highest order when you know good and well the boost maneuver is used the most in the majority of Sonic's main acts. You are arguing just to argue. Again, stahp.

EDIT: Hey folks, Azoo here. I'm dropping by in Nep's post to let you guys know I'm not gonna keep feeding this argument because this is dumb and I don't have time to regurgitate the same argument repeatedly only to have it thrown back at me like I said nothing to defend my claimz lol. Feel free to keep the debate rolling with other people if you want, sure, but I'm opting out and going with the "agree to disagree" thing just as I said I was two posts ago. Peace boyos.

And Nep, thanks for the lift. BV

[StaticMania]

Just now, Azul said:

It matters if you run out of boost or died right before entering one, especially if you're speedrunning or just trying to beat your record.

What exactly is this based on? Just because you've never played it doesn't mean you can't ace it.  I've never had a problem with Leaf Forest from Sonic Advance 2, Emerald Beach from Sonic Adventure, City Escape, I could go on.

What do you mean "won't get as much mileage?" As in not use it as often? You're speaking as if one experience universally applies.

1: Will it matter if you run out...? I think the worry there is that you'd be running out "during" areas devoid of rings not before you get there.

 

2: I specifically said 2D Sonic games. Not even talking about first levels, which are always easy no matter the dimension. But 2D games, because no 3D Sonic game before or after Unleashed has had any real difficulty. If there were any problems, it's either the control or camera.

 

3: Won't get mileage means that a mechanic that really just helps with speedrunning wouldn't help on a first playthrough of a level. You need to atleast have memorized the levels first to even think of doing that, which requires some amount of practice. You get practice to know the best strategies and get good at using them, you memorize levels so you have a good understanding of where things are so you can react when necessary.

[WakanoBaka]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

2: I specifically said 2D Sonic games. Not even talking about first levels, which are always easy no matter the dimension. But 2D games, because no 3D Sonic game before or after Unleashed has had any real difficulty. If there were any problems, it's either the control or camera.

Bruh....Shadow The Hedgehog was sorta hard as shit....not counting controls, but the missions and bosses.

 

But on the case of boost, I'll say what RetroReplay has side, boost is as optional as the spindash 90% of the time.

 

Note: This is an opinion....

[StaticMania]

Just now, WakanoBaka said:

Bruh....Shadow The Hedgehog was sorta hard as shit....not counting controls, but the missions and bosses.

 

But on the case of boost, I'll say what RetroReplay has side, boost is as optional as the spindash 90% of the time.

 

Note: This is an opinion....

Shadow the Hedgehog wasn't hard, it was just annoyingly tedious with the kill all "this" and collect all "that" and what ever else type of quest it had you do. The only legit difficult mission type was destroying the moving target missions of which there like...three. These are the only missions that take "skill" to do.

[Azul]

10 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

You're arguing against strawman and it's annoying. Just in the second paragraph you burst out this little gem:

And this is several posts after Azoo said this:

So you're either not reading posts or you're putting words in people's mouths to argue against. Either way, stahp.

This right here is also pedantry of the highest order when you know good and well the boost maneuver is used the most in the majority of Sonic's main acts. You are arguing just to argue. Again, stahp.

EDIT: Hey folks, Azoo here. I'm dropping by in Nep's post to let you guys know I'm not gonna keep feeding this argument because this is dumb and I don't have time to regurgitate the same argument repeatedly only to have it thrown back at me like I said nothing to defend my claimz lol. Feel free to keep the debate rolling with other people if you want, sure, but I'm opting out and going with the "agree to disagree" thing just as I said I was two posts ago. Peace boyos.

And Nep, thanks for the lift. BV

First of all, I'm not the type to ever put words into people's mouths, especially on a forum where you can directly quote what people say, and one that actually has pretty vigilant mods, nor would I even think about doing so to someone who knows the scope of this place after years of service because that's not smart.

Second, in spite of what you do think, I believe pedantry is a waste of time. This argument stemmed from me trying to better understand the premises of the dislike of boost mode because the reasons I've read don't make sense at their core and no one's doing anything to correct it. I even agree that this conversation's gone on for too long because instead of the failure to acknowledge the former and the apparent distaste for acknowledging the latter. Additionally, you're using the boost a good amount of time for one thing. Is the primary action button defined as the button held the longest or the button which is pressed the most, especially outside of performing actions in any given level?

And here's where I'm confused. You're saying I'm arguing against a straw man but implying that I'm using straw man. I'm guessing you mean I'm using a straw man even if it's not. I even went through the trouble of pointing out how most of the "boost = god mode" argument revolved mostly around exaggerations.

But I get it. It ends here because we're just going to repeat what we've already said.

9 hours ago, StaticMania said:

1: Will it matter if you run out...? I think the worry there is that you'd be running out "during" areas devoid of rings not before you get there.

It matters...

10 hours ago, Azul said:

...if you're speedrunning or just trying to beat your record.

And it doesn't make a difference if you run out during or right before those areas because you're still going to be running through an empty stretch without a way of increasing your boost.

9 hours ago, StaticMania said:

2: I specifically said 2D Sonic games. Not even talking about first levels, which are always easy no matter the dimension. But 2D games, because no 3D Sonic game before or after Unleashed has had any real difficulty. If there were any problems, it's either the control or camera.

My fault, I misread what you wrote. And again, you're treating one experience as universally applicable. I'd had trouble with the latter stages of Sonic's levels in SA(2) my first go around and I didn't come back to beat it until years later.

9 hours ago, StaticMania said:

3: Won't get mileage means that a mechanic that really just helps with speedrunning wouldn't help on a first playthrough of a level. You need to atleast have memorized the levels first to even think of doing that, which requires some amount of practice. You get practice to know the best strategies and get good at using them, you memorize levels so you have a good understanding of where things are so you can react when necessary.

The latter half is true, but I'm not quite sure it's accurate to say it only helps with speedrunning nor that it wouldn't assist you on your first run of a level, especially if your first run has your best time.

[Diogenes]

27 minutes ago, Azul said:

First of all, after doing a quick search, it looks like Azoo doesn't actually say what you've quoted anywhere. At least not word for word. And most of what he's said supports the notion that he believes the games do force you to boost the entire time through subconscious reinforcing. Is there a reason you're pulling quotes out of thin air?

Pro tip: If you mouse over the top right of a quote, an arrow will show up. Clicking it will take you to the post it's quoting. And the line Nepenthe quoted is the first sentence of Azoo's post.

[Azul]

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Pro tip: If you mouse over the top right of a quote, an arrow will show up. Clicking it will take you to the post it's quoting. And the line Nepenthe quoted is the first sentence of Azoo's post.

My mistake. Tried doing a Google Find and it didn't yield any results. And as if to deliberately destroy my credibility, it's working now. Thank you for pointing this out, I will make the appropriate corrections to my post.

[Nepenthe]

1 hour ago, Azul said:

First of all, I'm not the type to ever put words into people's mouths, especially on a forum where you can directly quote what people say, and one that actually has pretty vigilant mods, nor would I even think about doing so to someone who knows the scope of this place after years of service because that's not smart.

But you were doing it anyway, as I pointed out with two simple quotes. So yeah, you trying to fluff yourself up by saying at unnecessary length that you would never engage in a strawman argument for whatever reason is not convincing to me right now, not after everything Azoo argued and not what I read on this page alone. Recognize that, learn from it, and move on yo. =/

[Azul]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

But you were doing it anyway, as I pointed out with two simple quotes. So yeah, you trying to fluff yourself up by saying at unnecessary length that you would never engage in a strawman argument for whatever reason is not convincing to me right now, not after everything Azoo argued and not what I read on this page alone. Recognize that, learn from it, and move on yo. =/

You got it. Won't happen again, my promise to you.

Now put your pinky up to make it legit.

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, Azul said:

My fault, I misread what you wrote. And again, you're treating one experience as universally applicable. I'd had trouble with the latter stages of Sonic's levels in SA(2) my first go around and I didn't come back to beat it until years later.

The latter half is true, but I'm not quite sure it's accurate to say it only helps with speedrunning nor that it wouldn't assist you on your first run of a level, especially if your first run has your best time.

If you had problems, those would be with the camera or the controls. I said before, the actual level design isn't that difficult in 3D Sonic games. Sure there may be a standout case, but not every time. Crazy Gadget's whole gravity gimmick and maze near the end, can easily have caused some navigation and control problems if you weren't used to it it. Same with Final Rush's mostly rail based level design, as rail switching and balancing could also cause issues.

 

While the boost mode could help randomly on cases where you couldn't react fast enough to enemies, its speed boost will not really help much when on your first playthrough you aren't familiar enough with the level. With the limited view you have in a 2D perspective, you really will need to not rush through your first time. Your first time will never be your best time, unless you have skills that deplete the more you play. I'm just saying that this really is more of a speedrunning mechanic.

[NintendoSoul]

Ever since Sonic Rush, My opinion on the Boost mechanic have been one of complacence. I don't have a problem with it existing, and I don't have a problem with it being kept up indefinitely as a reward for playing the games extremely well.

[Riverstone]

With the new 2017 project game in the horizon, just thought id see where everyone's thoughts are now on the boost formula.

I just had another stint on generations. An enormous amount of effort, detail and polish went in that game. Its fantatsic. Unfortunately, after 30 mins i was done.

The constant high speed is great on one or two levels....and then gets forgettable and mundane after that. 

Controlling sonic is a nightmare for me, as he has the momentum of a thousand suns and the turning circle of shopping trolley, making the simplest maneuvering and platforming quite fustrating and bothersome. 

Even when there is a seperate path to take, i found myself battling sonic to get an accurate landing within the 0.005 second window of oppurtunity.

Not to mention the 2d sections taking up almost 50% of modern sonic's levels as well, a well known trademark of the boost gameplay. 

As a sonic fan since 1992, its genuinely confusing and equally fustrating to me that others can see this style of gameplay as adequate in the long term. It lacks accuracy, depth, player input and room to grow amongst other things...

Sorry if this offends any pro boost players, but a potential 4th game of this nature is a personal blow for me. 

[ChikoLad]

People who say the Boost formula in Generations forces linear level design and is too automated need to sit down and play Seaside Hill Act 2 and explore the plethora of extra areas and how you can exploit them for speedruns.

I also don't see what's inherently bad about a game that might not necessarily be the most challenging experience in the world. Recent Mario games, and every Kirby game (until you get to True Arena) have been piss easy, yet everyone still loves them because they're fun. People tend to love the Boost formula for the same reason.

Furthermore, even in the Classic days, Sonic was ALWAYS one of the easier platformers out there. This was due to another inherent mechanic, being the Ring system. When you take a hit in Mario, you are left really vulnerable in your small state until you get another Mushroom. In something like Kirby, you have a finite amount of hits you can take and bosses and such generally don't have health items there. In Sonic, you take a hit, and unless you're REALLY unlucky, you'll just catch a Ring and you're good again.

So yeah, I don't find "it makes things easy" to be a compelling argument against the Boost. Sonic has always been about ease and accessibility. Even the Adventure games are easy, and most of the "challenge" in those games comes from technical snafus (FYI, Adventure 1 is one of my favourite Sonic games, but even I can't deny this).

Plus, arguably the most challenging mainline Sonic game is Sonic Unleashed, which is a Boost game. Those extra and DLC stages will test you. You can't just "BOOSH TAH WEEN" in those. Even the later half of the mandatory stages are challenging.