Community Open Discussion

[Chris]

Given the recent actions taken against a particular member, I wanted to open the discussion to the community. I'd like to discuss the recent developments in detail before any opinions are contributed, so please read carefully before posting:

To begin, members can always approach me regarding issues on the forums. It frustrates me when I hear that contacting me directly will only be ignored as there are no situations where I will fail to acknowledge your concerns or comments, regardless of past grievances with me or issues. I have a job to do here and I intend to do it to the best of my ability.

Our moderation have all been appointed under my direct confidence in their ability. This has always been the case; each decision they make is not taken lightly. The decision to ban any user is brought up with the rest of the team regardless of previous warnings - commonly, I'm the one to recommend that action (as I have been recently). As I tend to be distant from any heated discussion on the forum, I can contribute without emotions being a factor. Our moderation act as a unit and not individually, each contributing with their differing opinions and experiences. We do not take action based on arguments and will pull in the opinions of our peers for second, third and fourth judgments.

I have been evaluating the current atmosphere and how the forum has shifted over the years. This will be followed by implementing a new set of rules in the future. Existing members should not notice a difference as most are assumed right now - it is for clarity purposes only. This will be accompanying a shift in the moderation to be clearer about actions.

This discussion was not sparked by the actions or comments of any individual. It's not an excuse to be a dick to anybody else on the forums, be it member or staff. Members with direct affiliation to partnered sites are not exempt to this or our rules here, nor do they receive special treatment.

Queries below, please. As always, my inbox is open if you feel uncomfortable discussing here. I'd like to hear your concerns and address them.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Can those of us who apparently missed the reason for this topic at least get a hint as to what happened?

[Chris]

5 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

Can those of us who apparently missed the reason for this topic at least get a hint as to what happened?

I made a direct decision to get rid of a member who has a history of being rude and abusive. Since then, I've had multiple members complain about members of staff that weren't involved in the decision at all (whom actually intended for it to just be a warning). Most of the complaints were assuming that the member had been banned for arguing against one of our moderators in a debate.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

 

As always I do really like the SSMB alot. And I love to read all the differing opinions about Sonic stuffs and all of that. I do have notice that there are times people will be negative about the series just to be negative and in turn it kinda makes those who are optimistic about the series, even with the rules on that there are some who still do it and it makes it uncomfortable to talk about the franchise this forum was built on.

I am not trying to say no one can not like Sonic. People have every right to voice their opinion and dislike. But it does seems like people do say "Sonic sucks" just to say it sucks and it makes it unconfortable or dare I say it, ashamed to like the series.

[Chris]

2 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

  Hide contents

 

As always I do really like the SSMB alot. And I love to read all the differing opinions about Sonic stuffs and all of that. I do have notice that there are times people will be negative about the series just to be negative and in turn it kinda makes those who are optimistic about the series, even with the rules on that there are some who still do it and it makes it uncomfortable to talk about the franchise this forum was built on.

I am not trying to say no one can not like Sonic. People have every right to voice their opinion and dislike. But it does seems like people do say "Sonic sucks" just to say it sucks and it makes it unconfortable or dare I say it, ashamed to like the series.

 

Shit I missed the point of the topic again. I'm sorry.

You didn't miss the point - this actually addresses a concern of mine regarding the shift in atmosphere over time. It's been clear to me for a while that the forums were undergoing a change in members and general attitude, but I wanted to give it a while to consider the causes instead of jumping the gun.

Many of the complaints that I receive about the issue tend to pin it on the staff. This isn't the case, as there are many factors that contribute, but to name a few:

• Increasing age of the community;
• Game quality is all over the place between titles;
• Content drought with no communication.

In addition to the above, one member discussing with a frustrated tone will generally bring down others in the discussion (which is then furthered by off-site mockery of opinions through Twitter or other means). We need to start acting more like a community.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I know the quality of the games is going down but I honestly also think because the more respected members are frustrated so the others will follow to. I see some of them even posting in the statuses about how Sonic is gross and other jump it.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

If you want my honest opinion, I find the biggest problem on SSMB is the cynical attitudes around here. I get it. Rise of Lyric, and some other games were shit. I hated RoL as much as the next person, but I'm under the impression that we should at least give a game a fair chance to impress us, and sell us on the idea, which is why it really annoys me when anything related to Sonic at all seems to just get a reaction of "this is going to be terrible" or some such. It's annoying enough to be a fan of Sonic when you have YouTubers and other people on the internet claiming the fanbase in it's entirety is nothing but an entire mess of a fanbase who are all a bunch of assholes, and to generally be included in that just because you like the series is honestly unfair and annoying, which is why it annoys me a bit when SSMB does tend to actually go too far with it's hatred and actively makes us and the fanbase in general look bad. We need to keep in mind that all it takes is one member to cause something massive in this board to happen. I mean just two months ago, all it took was one member being a complete jackass to me in a shit post thread to cause a mod feedback thread and such (No, I'm not saying it was created solely for that, but I do believe it was a contributing factor to it).

I guess what I'm trying to say is cynicism is one of the biggest problems here on SSMB, and usually, it's one of the main causes of arguments to break out around here. 

Not sure if this actually on point or not though due to completely missing what went down earlier.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Exactly and people do keep bringing up 06 and Shadow... games that happened 10 fucking years ago!  I mean even SEGA is trying to move on from them, we can't we? Because it's so fun and edgy to shit on them and because of them, Sonic has always been shit, am i right?

I mean that is why some of us are so uncomfortable talking about Sonic... ON A SONIC FORUM! Like I said, it is ok for you to think Sonic sucks but don't pleage threads with that attitude and for the love of god, someone needs to talk about those who shit on Webber just because it's the cool thing to do.

[TCB]

Oh hey 'open discussion'. Hmm, well my 'complaints' have been echoed many times over and much better explained by other people so there's that. As a default member I'm in the mindset that I know my 'place' for lack or better term here. I get the cynical attitudes, the lack of proper news and what have you is getting to some and I see it everyday when I log in here. That being said I'm just 'there'. So the usual issues with these forums over time haven't really gotten to me that much. But more power to thread like these that try to ease the problems whenever they rear their ugly head again.

Oh and common complaints about the vibes from this place being from how mods'  attitudes can be when things get heated (which happens to regular members here too, who have justified reasons to not being into the series as of late) was something that's always been in the back of my mind and know it would get acknowledged at some point. In addition to those bulleted points you made are good as an outsider looking in of course a good part of the time said outsiders blame the mods for part of hostility. Then again they're outsiders so what exactly to they know anyway? Again it doesn't get to me but it's still some shake my head at and move on with personally. So whatever these new rules are and their implementation for future members mean I hope it's beneficial towards all members who come here, as long as they get followed and all that.

Hope what I said was in tune with the OP. 

[Regulus]

Seeing as this says open discussion...

Wouldn't it have been fairer to have given the member a warning? I don't mean to seem funny, but I've literally never heard of a forum where a member, who I can see has been a member for a good few years and has contributed many posts, has been banned for one rude exchange with a moderator. It just seems a bit weird to me, and I don't even think Mr Taxi was particularly rude honestly. He was definitely out of line, but that out of line?

Just a thought. I just think that members would improve their behaviour if they got a warning, because otherwise it creates resentment in the forum as we are witnessing with the complaints you have disclosed.

I know you say that this is just an assumption, but it seems hard to throw that assumption away seeing as that's what happened pretty much. Again, not saying he shouldn't have been unpunished, just think a warning may have been fairer.

[Chris]

Warnings have been given for similar issues [to Mr Taxi] previously and he was a common topic of discussion in our staff meetings - constantly skirting close to but under the line. In addition, he was one of the bigger contributors to the deteriorating forum atmosphere surrounding Sonic discussion (as discussed in my previous post).

My concern about warnings is that they aren't effective in these situations. When a member has a history of strikes or warnings and receive another, they either:

• Reduce their time on the forums for the next few months and then request it removed;
• Very slightly (if at all) change their attitude for good or bad;
• Stick specifically to the status update module.

I'll spend some time reconsidering these issues going forward.

[Regulus]

Thanks, I appreciate you answering

Edit: How come my thread got deleted by the way. Was the thread just trash or did it get horribly derailed. You don't need to answer if you think this is a banal question xD

[redhellc]

I don't want to sound rude or anything, in fact I might not be the best person to be talking about this since I spent less time than I used to, but lately this forum feels a lot more aggressive than what it used to be. I don't know why and it probably is a fare amount of reasons, all I know is when I joined a couple of years ago I did it because I felt like it was the most welcoming sonic community from the ones I found. Now looking at all of these problems...it just doesn't feel like the same place anymore.

I used to spent a somewhat unhealthy time here, even if only lurking, however I don't remember all of this drama.

So in the end I think it is good that there is a discussion over new rules to keep this place working well. I just think it is a little sad to see this happening here.   

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

When it comes to members themselves we do come together as a community, that is what I enjoy about this place. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

6 hours ago, Mikyeong said:

When it comes to members themselves we do come together as a community, that is what I enjoy about this place. 

That said, that's still no excuse for some of the trivial crap that I've been seeing over the past few years.

We used to show a lot more respect to each other after this place seemed to be taking turns for the better. Even when things weren't doing well, we understood everything with clarity and could hold our chins high knowing the goods and bads of things - we knew of each other's opinions, we knew of each others beliefs, and we interacted with much less hostility than what I've seen rise overtime.

Back then, we didn't need as many new rules, if any at all. In fact, the community kept itself much more stable. But as time passed, many of us kept the same opinions and people still knew of each other's thoughts and beliefs, but for some odd reason some of us decided to go jerkass out of the blue and lash out at people for those differing views. I know things in this franchise we've all signed onto this forum to talk about haven't been all that great, but (and I know I've said this many, many times) we know better than this. So yeah, shit's changed.

I'm eager to see what the new rules are that'll steer this place back into good shape.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I'm not entirely familiar with the discussion and banning that spurred this but might as well take the chance to ramble a bit esp. as I feel due to it concerning staff it's something others might feel but tend to avoid mentioning.

Now, Nepenthe's repeatedly mentioned, when getting into heated discussions, a feeling of "I was never asked to not get into discussions like this, to not opine, to take this voluntary work so seriously I have to contain myself, etc. etc.". Paraphrasing, and if by paraphrasing I'm altering your intended meaning, feel free to correct it.

I've no reason to assume she's lying about it, which brings me to my point- I really disagree with that.

This is one of the biggest sites of this specific niche online, and its staff, both site staff and forum staff, are its public face. There definitely should be rules in place so that yes, they CAN'T go on rants and heated discussions. Both for basic PR and the resulting environment, where the people with power over you (in the context of the forum) end up showing clear biases. That should be the basic give-and-take of moderation- "you now have the power to control the forum in these ways, so you have the responsibility to not abuse it and to represent us correctly".

In case it isn't clear, I don't disagree with Nepenthe in doing this- she's acting on the rules given which state this is fine. I disagree with said rules themselves.

Otherwise, the usual stuff, cynicism, etc., people have already and will keep bringing those points up, just wanted to add these specific two cents since as far as I recall haven't seen them added before.

[Chris]

On 4/9/2016 at 11:01 AM, Regulus said:

Thanks, I appreciate you answering

Edit: How come my thread got deleted by the way. Was the thread just trash or did it get horribly derailed. You don't need to answer if you think this is a banal question xD

Your thread wasn't deleted - I hid it for the time being. I'll see about clearing the topic and bringing it back so that the discussion can continue on a lighter note.

17 hours ago, redhellc said:

I don't want to sound rude or anything, in fact I might not be the best person to be talking about this since I spent less time than I used to, but lately this forum feels a lot more aggressive than what it used to be. I don't know why and it probably is a fare amount of reasons, all I know is when I joined a couple of years ago I did it because I felt like it was the most welcoming sonic community from the ones I found. Now looking at all of these problems...it just doesn't feel like the same place anymore.

I used to spent a somewhat unhealthy time here, even if only lurking, however I don't remember all of this drama.

So in the end I think it is good that there is a discussion over new rules to keep this place working well. I just think it is a little sad to see this happening here.   

Absolutely, I agree with you. This is a huge concern of mine going forward that must be addressed (and was touched on earlier in this topic). Still evaluating how to handle it correctly but I'm definitely listening to your concerns.

2 hours ago, The KKM said:

I'm not entirely familiar with the discussion and banning that spurred this but might as well take the chance to ramble a bit esp. as I feel due to it concerning staff it's something others might feel but tend to avoid mentioning.

Now, Nepenthe's repeatedly mentioned, when getting into heated discussions, a feeling of "I was never asked to not get into discussions like this, to not opine, to take this voluntary work so seriously I have to contain myself, etc. etc.". Paraphrasing, and if by paraphrasing I'm altering your intended meaning, feel free to correct it.

I've no reason to assume she's lying about it, which brings me to my point- I really disagree with that.

This is one of the biggest sites of this specific niche online, and its staff, both site staff and forum staff, are its public face. There definitely should be rules in place so that yes, they CAN'T go on rants and heated discussions. Both for basic PR and the resulting environment, where the people with power over you (in the context of the forum) end up showing clear biases. That should be the basic give-and-take of moderation- "you now have the power to control the forum in these ways, so you have the responsibility to not abuse it and to represent us correctly".

In case it isn't clear, I don't disagree with Nepenthe in doing this- she's acting on the rules given which state this is fine. I disagree with said rules themselves.

Otherwise, the usual stuff, cynicism, etc., people have already and will keep bringing those points up, just wanted to add these specific two cents since as far as I recall haven't seen them added before.

The moderators were discussing this even before I'd brought this up with them; I'm not sure what changes you will notice in the short term, but we'd like to clear the air of some of these issues in the long term.

I've always made it a point to be familiar with the personalities and attitudes of our staff. I find it quite interesting - persons from such diverse backgrounds so far apart, yet working together and discussing problems openly. We keep contact as open as possible so that issues can be discussed as they arise, allowing for contribution from a group instead of working alone. This is strengthened by our selection process as a group and how well each new moderator integrates with the team.

Over the years, I've received a lot of complaints about particular members of staff. Usually it's because they're too blunt or abrasive, and this very well may be the case - but they're always the most active in the forums where we need it (usually Sonic). It's easy to come down hard on the one person that you see most often but this has to be a consideration when you're investigating the concerns of those users.

It's possible in the future that I may reconsider the solo forum moderator concept. As you know, all of our moderators are global (or super) moderators - unrestricted by forum category. Perhaps bringing on distinct staff for just the Sonic forums would be useful going forward. The idea has also been brought up that when a report is made and doesn't require action, the moderator dealing with it at the time will let the member who sent it know; this should aid in getting rid of the idea that we're ever playing favourites. Neither of these ideas are currently in place, but they're being considered.

This ended up with me rambling on but I hope some sense can be made of it.

[Kaze no Klonoa]

17 hours ago, redhellc said:

I don't want to sound rude or anything, in fact I might not be the best person to be talking about this since I spent less time than I used to, but lately this forum feels a lot more aggressive than what it used to be. I don't know why and it probably is a fare amount of reasons, all I know is when I joined a couple of years ago I did it because I felt like it was the most welcoming sonic community from the ones I found. Now looking at all of these problems...it just doesn't feel like the same place anymore.

I used to spent a somewhat unhealthy time here, even if only lurking, however I don't remember all of this drama.

So in the end I think it is good that there is a discussion over new rules to keep this place working well. I just think it is a little sad to see this happening here.   

As someone who's been on SSMB for about maybe 3 years, it's fair to say that I noticed the attitude of the forums overall constantly worsening in about the span. When I arrived, it was a really solid and comfortable place to be at. But I'd say around 2015, things went notably bad.

The quality of Sonic games as of recent is really only on top of the cake, it feels like that too much damage is done when a massive stage of drama happens. To say the least, it's really easy to pin worsening attitudes and massive splits between the boards on specific timing and events that spiraled out of control.

I do think that improving and changing the clarity of the rules are incredibly important, but I want to stress that (from my perspective) I don't feel comfortable participating a lot in massive conversations when a huge drama or argument can spiral out of control at any point in time.

[Regulus]

I can say as a newcomer that the SSMB is an incredibly intimidating place. There are so many old members who have an established popularity spot that it's difficult to debate with them, especially when the like system so heavily skews conversations  

Not saying its a bad setup, but I think the place could benefit from being warmer to newbies.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 hour ago, Regulus said:

I can say as a newcomer that the SSMB is an incredibly intimidating place. There are so many old members who have an established popularity spot that it's difficult to debate with them, especially when the like system so heavily skews conversations  

Not saying its a bad setup, but I think the place could benefit from being warmer to newbies.

It still intimidates me until this day and I was here in 2013. And yes the likes do skew conversations because the more likes you have the more people will think of you as putting someone in their place. In that case this place needs to stop putting established members on a pedestal. 

It is hard to debate with someone who everyone sees as an intelligent debater. ugh. 

[Regulus]

4 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

It still intimidates me until this day and I was here in 2013. And yes the likes do skew conversations because the more likes you have the more people will think of you as putting someone in their place. In that case this place needs to stop putting established members on a pedestal. 

It is hard to debate with someone who everyone sees as an intelligent debater. ugh. 

I mean, I actually think the likes system is pretty cool. It separates this forum from other forums and I don't want to see it go. I just think that it creates an atmosphere where people are too busy trying to get likes rather than discuss, which can be a bit unfortunate.

It also doesn't help with the whole atmosphere problem  

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

44 minutes ago, Regulus said:

I mean, I actually think the likes system is pretty cool. It separates this forum from other forums and I don't want to see it go. I just think that it creates an atmosphere where people are too busy trying to get likes rather than discuss, which can be a bit unfortunate.

It also doesn't help with the whole atmosphere problem  

I have 30 likes so my post wins. I know this sounds extreme but I advocate for getting rid of the reputation system. The thing I liked about the SEGA forums was that you can be new or a oldie but still have awesome points without people looking at your rep and just siding with you because of your rep.

[redhellc]

If we are talking about the like system, I must say that even though I agree with the points above I also want to point out it also has some good sides. For a person like me who follows a discussion but doesn't like to repeat arguments from other people, this system is a away of showing my agreement without adding redundant arguments or posts like "I agree with this guy".

If I have to be honest I liked the old system a lot better, if you someone said something that wasn't of your liking but someone already said what you were going to say you could just dislike said comment. Maybe this could diminish the amount of one sided arguments where a group of members go against just one. 

However maybe if you separated the comment likes from the reputation, maybe that could work. I mean even if someone has a controversial opinion that doesn't mean that he isn't a respectable member of the community.   

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

True, it does stop the "this" posts that I see alot on other forums. Then again I want to say when I joined, you can actually give negative rep as well and that was a circus on it's own. I am against returning the dislike system. It made people feel like they had bad opinions because of it.

[Regulus]

Can't say I'm in support of a Dislike function. It just seems to have all the negative aspects of the Like function without any of the positive sides.