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SurrealBrain

Weaknesses with Sonic 3 and Knuckles

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Yeah, you certainly aren't where I am. :P

 

FP rivals if not has more going for it than Sonic 3:

  • 5 elemental shields to it's 3
  • 5 unique characters (3 right now, 2 upcoming) compared to it's 3 (I can walk on fucking spikes like Jesus with one in FP, can you do that in S3?)
  • Equally gorgeous levels
  • A much more meaty plot
  • Equally eargasmic soundtrack
  • And characters can survive more hits (depending on the difficulty) compared to S3

About the only odd thing with FP is that you can somehow walk up slopes and 90 degree angles (which isn't exactly a bad thing), and the one thing it doesn't have over S3 is Super Forms. But it pushed some of its other ideas a bit further where as we have yet to have a Sonic game surpass S3(&K).

 

...Honestly, I don't see why having more characters, more elemental shields, or characters who can survive more hits makes a game inherently better. You're talking about details rather than the grand scope of gameplay. I mean, if these details really improve the experience for you, great. But it's easy to see why others disagree, tbh. (I've never played Freedom Planet heh =P)   

 

Sonic 3 is absolute 2D platformer perfection. Screw Sonic 2 with its stages that hardly transition, Tails that can't even fly under your control and annoying special stages. Sonic 3 does all of these things so brilliantly that I still don't understand why it's often overlooked. Probably because it didn't sell as much as Sonic 1 and 2, a damn shame too because it's by far the best out of all three. What more can I say?

 

Honestly, I like Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 better than Sonic 3, for some weird reason. Which is especially weird considering Knuckles is my favorite character xD

 

It's not because they're better, and I'm definitely not trying to diss Sonic 3, since it's certainly an amazing game. But something about Sonic 1 and Sonic 2...it just feels so clean, pure, and simple, I guess. It's hard to describe.

 

Maybe it has something to do with what Gilda said - adding complexity but not updating the controls to match? idk.

 

I agree, though, that Sonic 2's special stages are the worssssst. No fun at all, to be honest.

 

...But yeah, to answer the OP, I do think Sonic 3's aged well. I mean, I can't think of any way in which it hasn't, really.

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Because, CSS, more things doesn't necessarily make it more fun.

 

With the Sonic games, it's extremely straightforward and has a great sense of flow and momentum. Move forward, jump on top of enemies and bounce forward to keep going, or roll through enemies to defeat them AND roll on hills to gain speed. Can't make it up the hill? Go back and get more speed. Get more momentum. Sonic has flow.

 

Freedom Planet doesn't have that sense of flow. It's a more methodical platformer 70% of the time, which is fine, except the levels are occasionally designed to go fast, which doesn't fit the attack mechanism of the characters. You need to attack enemies with the attack button, you can't jump on them, and most of these enemies don't go out with one hit - it usually takes several. Freedom Planet does things differently, but I would argue that in trying to mimic some of Sonic's mechanics, it ends up falling flat on its face because it trips up over itself trying to be an all-inclusive nod to 16-bit era platformers. 

 

Freedom Planet is alright, but it doesn't have a consistent flow, or at the very least, the sense of flow isn't as fun and addicting as Sonic's is. Sonic (as seen in Sonic 3) is inherently a better concept, therefore the better game for it.

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...Honestly, I don't see why having more characters, more elemental shields, or characters who can survive more hits makes a game inherently better. You're talking about details rather than the grand scope of gameplay. I mean, if these details really improve the experience for you, great. But it's easy to see why others disagree, tbh. (I've never played Freedom Planet heh =P)

You say that like I have a problem with them disagreeing.

Because, CSS, more things doesn't necessarily make it more fun.

With the Sonic games, it's extremely straightforward and has a great sense of flow and momentum. Move forward, jump on top of enemies and bounce forward to keep going, or roll through enemies to defeat them AND roll on hills to gain speed. Can't make it up the hill? Go back and get more speed. Get more momentum. Sonic has flow.

Freedom Planet doesn't have that sense of flow. It's a more methodical platformer 70% of the time, which is fine, except the levels are occasionally designed to go fast, which doesn't fit the attack mechanism of the characters. You need to attack enemies with the attack button, you can't jump on them, and most of these enemies don't go out with one hit - it usually takes several. Freedom Planet does things differently, but I would argue that in trying to mimic some of Sonic's mechanics, it ends up falling flat on its face because it trips up over itself trying to be an all-inclusive nod to 16-bit era platformers.

Freedom Planet is alright, but it doesn't have a consistent flow, or at the very least, the sense of flow isn't as fun and addicting as Sonic's is. Sonic (as seen in Sonic 3) is inherently a better concept, therefore the better game for it.

No, more things don't inherently make it more fun, but it can add to the experience.

Freedom Planet may not be straightforward, but it has it's own kind of style that Sonic does happen to lack. You can move forward, dash long distances in the air, speed through on a motorcycle, hover a bit, roll through enemies, or just straight up fight them.

I already went through this with Blue Blood. Freedom Planet has more influences than just Sonic alone, such as Megaman and Gunstar Heroes. You cannot judge the whole thing with just a part of the influences that make it up here. The levels have fast moments, they have exploratory moments, and they have combat moments. And while you can't jump on enemies, the enemies (generally) can't jump on you either, so unless they have spikes you can just walk right past them without getting hurt by touch. And you're over generalizing how much it takes to kill these enemies, depending on who you're playing, like Lilac for instance, many of these enemies tend to go out in at least 2 hits, not several unless you're playing as Carol (and Milla can kill them even quicker). And likewise, it takes several hits for them to kill you in return. It manages to incorporate more variety into its playstyle than Sonic 3, and in its own way that although it has comparable elements, its differences strongly set it apart and make it unique. There's greater survivability over platforming sections, Lilac can save her self at the last second with a hover or dash, Carol can wall climb back up, and Milla can fly back up (albeit, at a shorter length than Tails). Heck, if you miss a platform in the air as Lilac, who is comparable to Sonic in this game, she can simply wait for her gauge to fill up and dash back up or helicopter up there, where as Sonic would have to use the environment if it's close enough or be SOL if it isn't. And Milla can also block and redirect enemy projectiles, even certain attacks from bosses so that they can hurt themselves. You know our discussions wanting multiple characters with unique playstyles without resorting to Genre Roulette? FP accomplishes just that.

Either way it goes, I think as far as being the best 2D platformer ever, which was the original point I was contesting, FP does a lot to rival S3. Its sense of fun, which I'd say is more important, makes up for whatever consistent flow you doesn't feel it have compared to S3. It lacks S3's flow? Okay, sure. But it has more style, flair, and power to make up for it.

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The main problem with Sonic 3 has remained that it retains the strict adherence to control simplicity of the earlier titles even though the complexity of the game outgrew the point where that was the best option for the gameplay. The most direct comparison that comes to mind of a game that suffered from something similar is actually Other M, but Sonic 3 obviously isn't anywhere near that bad with it.

 

 

 

 

 

Luckily Sonic 3 Complete solves that nicely.

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Sometimes I walk into this topic and wonder why the topic is even a question.

 

Sky's blue, water's actually not wet, mopeds are pretty cool, the sun is a mass of incandescent gas, 60-70 degrees Fahrenheit is the ideal temperature for living without suffering, sushi isn't raw fish you dumb idiot, and Sonic 3 is the best 2D platformer to exist. Simple facts, guys.

 

 

 

 

 

But no really, Sonic 3 has aged stupidly well.

 

It's got some minor things about it that bother me (like how Sonic will sometimes lack animations for cutscenes, particularly when he's falling in Hidden Palace after the Knuckles battle), but they're nitpicks at worst. The only truly bad thing I can really say is that it's two games instead of one, but together they all but destroy any competition a platformer game has given before it and to an extent also after it. 

 

Granted, I'm also tired of playing it. I've done everything I could in that game, which is a bit sad. Still doesn't change how great of a game I think it is. It's one of the finest, nuff said.

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Well, the mechanics never get old to me, but the level design does.

 

Not because it isn't fun (far from it), but after so long of playing it, I'm just burnt out on S3K, start to finish. The only stages I still majorly enjoy playing are Launch Base, Mushroom Hill and Lava Reef. Other than that, it's just the same old same old.

 

Kinda why I want another game like it. 8V

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In response to the early post that gimmicks are a weakness I strongly disagree.

 

Some of the gimmicks may not have been favorites. Marble Garden certainly comes to mind with the spinning tops, but even in what I consider the game's weakest level, the earthquakes were a great addition. There were layers of gimmicks expanding on the gameplay of the previous three games, much more so than Sonic CD. Gravity in Death Egg is a great example of how levels can be so distinct from each other based on one gimmick. They flipped tropes from previous games. Hydrocity is a fast water zone, compared to the original lumbering Labyrinth Zone. You can say Chemical Plant started this trend, but Hydrocity takes the idea to a new high. Levels have two faces in this game. Carnival Night with lights and lights off. Mushroom Hill green and Mushroom Hill "autumn". Lava Reef hot and Lava Reef crystal. Inside the Sandopolis pyramid. The ghosts are a gimmick many hated, but putting a play-based time limit on a whole act is just a novel concept. The ghosts essentially made Act 2 into a sand-based water level, where the lightswitch is the air bubble. So many ideas used in new ways. There were four special stages in this game guys. Acts that differed in gimmick and sometimes appearance. Mini-bosses! Two different final bosses between characters. The ante was just upped so much to make this the perfect sequel. It took everything that was good before it and piled on gravy, that's why we love this game. This is still what people look for in great sequels. These things still stand out.

 

I'd like to bring up a negative no one's mentioned though, and that's the Knuckles fight.

 

What a let down, am I right? He was the easiest or second easiest boss in the game. I feel as though they struggled with how to adapt a boss fight to a non-mecha character, being that Knuckles was roughly the same size as the player, with similar moves. But then Mecha Sonic was the same size roughly. Why was the Knuckles fight so bad?

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I should've said that the game isn't that much more complex because of the new mechanics. It's still relatively simple in terms of your given control scheme.

Which, incidentally, changes nothing about my original post. When I say that the strict adherence to the original Sonic 1 concept of a simplified control scheme works against the increased options that Sonic 3 brought to the table, and you explain in greater detail why that statement is true, how does that make the statement incorrect? It doesn't matter if Sonic 3 is still closer to Sonic 1 than it is something like Jurassic Park on the complexity scale. The character abilities still exceed the capability provided by the control scheme, and I never said anything more than that.

 

 

 

I want to attack this asshole:

 

orbinaut_of_sonic_3_by_tokeitime-d3jtllf

 

 

I don't have a shield equipped because I got hit earlier in the level. There are no invincibility powerups anywhere. I have 51 rings, and I'm playing on my fully completed game save. What do I do?

 

 

 

The reason I say it wasn't a main problem because the simple control scheme thing only becomes a problem when the super forms are involved, since they are optional game-play rewards...they can easily be avoided.

That'd be moving the goalposts. I could also just play Sonic 3 Complete, where the problem is solved simply by using more than one button on the three button controller every single Genesis system came with. I could play Bubsy or Rocket Knight or Jazz Jackrabbit or Kirby's Dreamland, none of which tried to shove multiple player abilities onto only one button so the best ability simply overrides all of the other ones as soon as you attain it.

 

 

The fact remains that if you play the game to 100% completion, the game essentially forces you to take advantage of a powerup you might not want to use (and might even be detrimental to use in spots) at any given time because the controls were not updated to take into account the increased options the player has at their disposal. I can't attack at least one enemy at all, and a couple others are made more difficult. I can't explore the levels using one of the characters' new abilities. With one of the characters, I cannot even complete most of his levels without transforming unless I deliberately avoid rings or take damage. Since this is something carried over from the original game where the simplicity didn't stand at odds with the actual gameplay, what are the other problems that Sonic 3 suffers from enough to disallow such a thing to be a main aspect in the game showing its age? You keep downplaying it as not a big problem, but since I never said it was a big problem so much as the main one of when even its contemporaries were avoiding it, what else is such a big deal that the control problems can't even be commented on?

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Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed some recent negative backlash against Sonic 3? I mean in regards to it being a trend-setter for more realistic environments, darker and more complex storylines, and the proliferation of Sonic's so-called "shitty friends"? 

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I want to attack this asshole:

 

orbinaut_of_sonic_3_by_tokeitime-d3jtllf

 

 

I don't have a shield equipped because I got hit earlier in the level. There are no invincibility powerups anywhere. I have 51 rings, and I'm playing on my fully completed game save. What do I do?

Use the insta-shield and pray that you get him without losing rings.

 

Failing that, flip your table and rage at whoever was the jackass that made that asshole.

 

Seriously tho, fuck the Orbinaut...

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I'm pretty sure the point he was getting at was that he's playing on a completed save with all emeralds, and therefore can't instashield because Super Sonic overrides it.

Ooohh....

 

Well that went completely over my head then. Wasn't paying attention to the "completed save with all emeralds" part.  :lol:

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Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed some recent negative backlash against Sonic 3? I mean in regards to it being a trend-setter for more realistic environments, darker and more complex storylines, and the proliferation of Sonic's so-called "shitty friends"? 

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Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed some recent negative backlash against Sonic 3? I mean in regards to it being a trend-setter for more realistic environments, darker and more complex storylines, and the proliferation of Sonic's so-called "shitty friends"? 

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Which, incidentally, changes nothing about my original post. When I say that the strict adherence to the original Sonic 1 concept of a simplified control scheme works against the increased options that Sonic 3 brought to the table, and you explain in greater detail why that statement is true, how does that make the statement incorrect? It doesn't matter if Sonic 3 is still closer to Sonic 1 than it is something like Jurassic Park on the complexity scale. The character abilities still exceed the capability provided by the control scheme, and I never said anything more than that.

 

 

 

I want to attack this asshole:

 

orbinaut_of_sonic_3_by_tokeitime-d3jtllf

 

 

I don't have a shield equipped because I got hit earlier in the level. There are no invincibility powerups anywhere. I have 51 rings, and I'm playing on my fully completed game save. What do I do?

 

 

 

That'd be moving the goalposts. I could also just play Sonic 3 Complete, where the problem is solved simply by using more than one button on the three button controller every single Genesis system came with. I could play Bubsy or Rocket Knight or Jazz Jackrabbit or Kirby's Dreamland, none of which tried to shove multiple player abilities onto only one button so the best ability simply overrides all of the other ones as soon as you attain it.

 

 

The fact remains that if you play the game to 100% completion, the game essentially forces you to take advantage of a powerup you might not want to use (and might even be detrimental to use in spots) at any given time because the controls were not updated to take into account the increased options the player has at their disposal. I can't attack at least one enemy at all, and a couple others are made more difficult. I can't explore the levels using one of the characters' new abilities. With one of the characters, I cannot even complete most of his levels without transforming unless I deliberately avoid rings or take damage. Since this is something carried over from the original game where the simplicity didn't stand at odds with the actual gameplay, what are the other problems that Sonic 3 suffers from enough to disallow such a thing to be a main aspect in the game showing its age? You keep downplaying it as not a big problem, but since I never said it was a big problem so much as the main one of when even its contemporaries were avoiding it, what else is such a big deal that the control problems can't even be commented on?

Wow, what a totally non-specific and relevant to 100% of the players situation.

There being only one action button is a most important feature - no, it's the very foundation of Sonic. If it brings problems in an endgame situation like this, it's also what makes it possible for the player to not know whether it's worth changing shields and additional powers. This is especially true in levels that feature water or fire. Is getting an electric shield worth the risk of being exposed to the level's biggest dangers? Is it worth blazing through a level with Super Sonic if I still don't know what's ahead? Super Sonic has a very interesting risk factor about it, one that would be completely lost if you had more control over the transformation than you have at S3&K - unlike Sonic 2 you can choose when to do it, but you have to give up on other powers to get it AND be at risk of losing all rings and be left defenceless.

In short there is a reason why Sonic never used all three buttons of the controller - it adds such depth to each choice you make and each behaviour you develop that convenience is definitely second to it.

Oh and if you have a fully completed game you should know you can just jump over it if your timing is right. It's unnecessary to attack it - in fact it's normally unnecessary to attack badniks - and thus it's your choice (therefore your fault)

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Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed some recent negative backlash against Sonic 3? I mean in regards to it being a trend-setter for more realistic environments, darker and more complex storylines, and the proliferation of Sonic's so-called "shitty friends"? 

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Oh and if you have a fully completed game you should know you can just jump over it if your timing is right. It's unnecessary to attack it - in fact it's normally unnecessary to attack badniks - and thus it's your choice (therefore your fault)

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'Sonic The Hedgehog 3 Starring Knuckles' could have made a valid title since then it's still technically just called Sonic 3.

 

And I debunk Lost Worlds as an opposite to all those directions. It was a step above Colors and Generations in being more rounded, just the execution was a bit clunky.

 

And I always thought the 'shitty friends' moniker came during the early 3D era, either with Big or Amy and such in SA1 or SA2 when people were forced to play the completely different gameplay styles mid game, with Next Gen being the straw that broke the camel's back. Most arguments I see for more characters use this game as an example of good implementation.

 

As for the forced Super transformations, it was a standard for Sonic 2 as well. At least you could get through most of the game with basic gameplay in this one.

 

I'd like to bring up a negative no one's mentioned though, and that's the Knuckles fight.

 

What a let down, am I right? He was the easiest or second easiest boss in the game. I feel as though they struggled with how to adapt a boss fight to a non-mecha character, being that Knuckles was roughly the same size as the player, with similar moves. But then Mecha Sonic was the same size roughly. Why was the Knuckles fight so bad?

 

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