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SurrealBrain

Weaknesses with Sonic 3 and Knuckles

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That's not exactly a staple of solid game design when an element as basic as enemies are not only not necessary but not rewarding to actually defeat.  I've always felt that to be a shortcoming in the series since inception (though it doesn't really get too bad until the Advance and Rush games).  Aside from those with projectile weapon (most notoriously the starfish in Metropolis Zone), the majority of badniks pose no threat to you and have no real tangible benefit aside from higher score. (Something that was sufficient motivation in the early nineties, I suppose, but from a modern standpoint, it's not enough to keep my attention)  It's why I might defend trivial aspects like Homing Attack chains in the modern games, because they not only make defeating enemies an important aspect of the gameplay, but also a creative method of progression.

 

It would be a terrible move on Sonic Team's to make you actually fight badniks, as in learn their patterns and whatnot - even though it does happen sometimes. Such is the case of that armadillo in Sonic CD's Stardust Speedway It would interrupt the player's flow, locking them in a section of the stage. They are rewarding to defeat, though, in a number of ways.

 

The main role of enemies in classic Sonic games isn't to pose direct threat to you - instead, they shape your behaviour for the stage. It's a diffuse challenge slowly accomodating you to the stage's atmosphere, flow and pace. They are not tools the designers used to make you do something. Instead, they are tools made to make you not do something. You know that badnik in Spring Yard that rolls right behind you? It's basically jumpscare, but the only thing you must not do is to slow down. Not looking back, this is what this badnik makes you do. And yet, hardly ever do you get hit by it, right? This kind of exercise is replicated throughout the entire stage and not only with badniks. This is how each stage has a specific way to kill you and, thus, has a specific feeling.

 

So let's take Hidrocity as an example. It's an underwater level - and what's the worst thing that can happen to you while underwater? Not doing anything, wasting time. Even if that... thing that shoots projectiles at a 45º angle doesn't really kill you, it makes you waste time and so do the piranhas. The piranhas are particularly aggravating as they slow you down and drain your rings.

 

Another example is Carnival Night. Carnival Night is a stage that tries to kill you through imprecision, that is, bouncing off and landing where you didn't want to. There's an oyster-like badnik that does exactly that even if its projectiles aren't really a threat either. The same goes for that lobster in Sonic 2's Casino Night.

 

So the enemies in Sonic are more about the omen they represent than the challenge they, by themselves, pose. They are very solid as groups in the stages, serving as clues and boundaries for how to play the stage they're in.

 

There's also the fact that you must use them to keep your momentum, sometimes even in order to avoid other dangers. You jump on them and bounce off them, go higher and reach higher platforms etc. You gotta have the right timing and avoid the behaviours they deny - and it's very important that the only way to attack them is with your body. You have to literally throw yourself at them, which makes them dangerous in themselves and relieving to kill. You can't, like, snipe them or shoot at them. And also they share with monitors the peculiarity that, if you use them to reach some other place, there is only one chance to do it right, otherwise you'll have to find another way. It's incredibly rewarding to kill 4 crabs in a row at Spring Yard and reach a really high platform, but if you happen to miss any of them, that path is closed to you forever.

 

So yeah, they are very solid. This is why I think homing attack chains are one of the worst things to have happened to Sonic. They are one single kind of challenge that never changes. You could hardly call it a progression.

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I really don't like playing Sonic 3 & Knuckles anymore these days.

 

 

 

 

 

Sonic 3 Complete, on the other hand, is pretty fantastic

 

I really have replaced Sonic 3 & Knuckles with Sonic 3 Complete when I want to play Sonic 3. It is just so good and easy to customise.

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I just can't understand anyone who would claim the sprite on the far right looks in any way better than or even as good as the first two. I really think this sprite is a direct response to Sonic's run away popularity in America. This is especially clear in the simplified way the spikes are drawn, with the head being all "one seperate piece", as opposed to the third spike being connected to both Sonic's head and his body. The eyes have also been sized down for whatever reason. Probably to make him look cooler and less cute, which I think became a character design initiative when Tails was introduced in Sonic 2, but that always struck me as silly, as Sonic being cute AND streamlined was a really cool part of his character design. The oversized hands and feet are also really obnoxious as well. I'm sure it helped the sprite artist make Sonic more expressive (maybe?), but it looks really awful. Especially in tandem with the slightly smaller body. It's just some really bad artwork, which is frustrating as this is the main character of the game.

 

 

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Wow, what a totally non-specific and relevant to 100% of the players situation.

What a totally pedantic yet still amusingly clueless attempt to once again move the goalposts away from the fact that the one button control scheme from the first two titles is overwhelmed by the abilities provided to the player by a completed game save.

Incidentally:

Oh and if you have a fully completed game you should know you can just jump over it if your timing is right. It's unnecessary to attack it - in fact it's normally unnecessary to attack badniks - and thus it's your choice (therefore your fault)

You want to be a fucking smartass and try to dismiss the entire concept because "you can just choose not to do that", let's say I'm playing as Tails and I want to fucking fly. Let's say I'm playing as Knuckles and I want to fucking glide. You're telling me I'm to blame for wanting to even do those two basic things, ingeniously mapped to the same button combination as the ring sucking, momentum-altering character transformation? Let's say I'm Sonic with a shield I just picked up, but I want to transform anyway like the other two characters allow (force) you to do. Is it just my fault for even picking up the shield? Or is it just my fault for picking Sonic? Or is it my fault for playing the game to completion? Fuck, is it my fault for even playing the game at all, what with my foolish notions regarding how the enemies that provide points encourages you to attack enemies to get points?

So before you go on to preach to me about how it's my fault for wanting to use one of the character actions provided for the player without having it overridden by default by another control option that's forced on me just because I completed the game properly, you show me the no-gliding Knuckles playthrough of Sonic 3.

 

There being only one action button is a most important feature - no, it's the very foundation of Sonic.

It's such a fundamental requirement to the classic titles that a rom hack that does allows you to actually control the ability to transform instead of just overriding any other function that double pressing the jump button is a drastic improvement to the control scheme.

"Oh no. I can actually complete levels with one of the characters without being forced to use something I might not want to, because I was such a fool for playing the game to 100% completion. What a slap in the face to the series' ethos."

 

Super Sonic has a very interesting risk factor about it, one that would be completely lost if you had more control over the transformation than you have at S3&K - unlike Sonic 2 you can choose when to do it, but you have to give up on other powers to get it AND be at risk of losing all rings and be left defenceless.

It's too bad literally nothing about the game actually presents it as being in any way negative. So:

In short there is a reason why Sonic never used all three buttons of the controller - it adds such depth to each choice you make and each behaviour you develop that convenience is definitely second to it.

I'm not particularly interested in your navel gazing. Sorry.

I mean, hell, you're not even consistent with this pretentious "true reasoning" kind of logic:

Instead, they are tools made to make you not do something.

"We gave Sonic a single frame attack animation that increases his attack range a couple pixels but not his hitbox. Here's an enemy it's particularly effective against as the only normal means of attack, in case you haven't been using it against the bosses that it also is occasionally extremely useful against. Like the one in the same level as the enemy we added to make you try it, and several of the ones in the Sonic and Knuckles portion of the game.

DON'T USE THE ATTACK! Just jump over the enemy."

 

 

 

 

 

Let's apply this logic to the shittier portions of Sonic 2, later famously adopted by Dimps starting with Advance 3. Since the enemies, and at times even the level design, seem to be actively placed to punish you for going fast in the fastest title in the classic series, does that make those levels A-OK, since that was the perceived intent? They supposedly did it on purpose, so it's beyond reproach?

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I thought it was specifically Sonic Advance 3's schizophrenic-as-fuck level design that was punishing when it came to speed? You so much as run off a ledge that looked like it was encouraging it, and you flew to your death. And that's not even getting into how the level design often stopped you in your tracks just as often. And that also tied in with you running into enemies.

 

As far as the discussion goes, quite frankly, I have to agree that for it's advantages the simplicity of having your abilities mapped to one button has some drawbacks. Not just in the superform activation overriding abilities like Tails's flying or Knux's gliding, but mainly in limiting your abilities in general, because a succeeding game would likely need to do more on a controller depending on what else gets added into it's gameplay. Funnily enough, the Advance titles a perfect example of sticking to the classic formula while using more than one button - well, bar SAdv3's problems that is, but even that game has some strengths regarding expanding the use of having a partner like Tails for what it's worth.

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Honestly I don't think the designers put that much thought into how the Super Sonic transformation would affect the unique character abilities in Sonic 3. It's clearly a mistake in Knuckles' case because you have to glide and climb in certain sections of his stages. Transforming is unavoidable in this case and I think that's probably an oversight. Aside from deliberately running into spikes or a badnik then the player can't avoid transformation. Is it the players fault for collecting too many rings? Of course not.

 

They obviously put some thought into it. They (mostly) gave you the option to transform with the jump button and fixed the game-breaking glitch in Sonic 2 where transforming into Super Sonic after completing a stage would hang the game. I honestly think the decision to map the transformation button to the mid-air jump was done with Sonic in mind and the other characters just kind of had this decision put to them without much thought.

 

Overall though, I definitely think this is a developer oversight. The game-breaking glitch in Sonic 2 shows the designers have overlooked far bigger problems before so it's hardly unthinkable. I agree that using one of the other two buttons to transform is an obvious decision.

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What a totally pedantic yet still amusingly clueless attempt to once again move the goalposts away from the fact that the one button control scheme from the first two titles is overwhelmed by the abilities provided to the player by a completed game save.

 

Don't lose your temper so quickly.

 

If you're not interested in my navel-grazing, you can just leave my comment without answer instead of building an army of strawmen. If you are willing to not take arguments personally, though, here are my own answers:

Incidentally:

You want to be a fucking smartass and try to dismiss the entire concept because "you can just choose not to do that", let's say I'm playing as Tails and I want to fucking fly. Let's say I'm playing as Knuckles and I want to fucking glide. You're telling me I'm to blame for wanting to even do those two basic things, ingeniously mapped to the same button combination as the ring sucking, momentum-altering character transformation? Let's say I'm Sonic with a shield I just picked up, but I want to transform anyway like the other two characters allow (force) you to do. Is it just my fault for even picking up the shield? Or is it just my fault for picking Sonic? Or is it my fault for playing the game to completion? Fuck, is it my fault for even playing the game at all, what with my foolish notions regarding how the enemies that provide points encourages you to attack enemies to get points?

So before you go on to preach to me about how it's my fault for wanting to use one of the character actions provided for the player without having it overridden by default by another control option that's forced on me just because I completed the game properly, you show me the no-gliding Knuckles playthrough of Sonic 3.

 

 

Hmm, yeah, you're right about Tails and Knuckles. They suffer from what Sonic suffers in Sonic 2, so I'll give you that. But don't go around trying to reduce my argument to absurd when you didn't really get the point.

 

If you have a shield and you want to become Super Sonic, you are caught in a tradeoff. If it just so happens you give up on your protection to get more speed (therefore power) and then run out of rings, it was totally your fault. This desire to become super doesn't come from nowhere, right? You may want it to complete the level faster; or you may want to reach a place you originally couldn't: either way it's a conscious effort, baited by something in the game. The action, of course, isn't your fault - but if you get fucked because of that, it wasn't a cheap move by the game: it was lack of skill on your part for not being able to mantain Super Sonic. Heck, it's not even a punishment (your progress isn't really affected). It's just a state of affairs that brings more danger than the original and that yes, you TOTALLY brought on yourself.

 

The same goes for points. The badniks are just... there. If the points are a reward, there's a risk factor involved. You are always evaluating whether the points are worth the risk of trying to kill them. It's not that you can choose not to do that. It's that choosing not to do that is the default choice.

 

It's such a fundamental requirement to the classic titles that a rom hack that does allows you to actually control the ability to transform instead of just overriding any other function that double pressing the jump button is a drastic improvement to the control scheme.

"Oh no. I can actually complete levels with one of the characters without being forced to use something I might not want to, because I was such a fool for playing the game to 100% completion. What a slap in the face to the series' ethos."

 

 

But that was the concept from which the game was brought up. Carol Yas said so himself. No amount of remapping will change that, even if it doesn't really break the game. It's not like you're not playing Sonic if you take that away, but indeed that was what the game was built around and that was how the level design came to be. It's such a fundamental requirement to the classic titles that it was a rom hack that allowed you to actually control the ability to transform when the original titles could have done that.

 

Even then, it doesn't mean it's always good. Yeah, indeed, it fails with Knuckles and Tails. Just like in Sonic 1 you always had to gather speed from the level design, which makes more sense according to all the principles Carol Yas discusses in the interview I just linked, it sucked having to go back a long way if you somehow couldn't go past a loop - and then Sonic 2 added the spindash. But, with Sonic and his temporary power-ups, it still works.

 

Let's apply this logic to the shittier portions of Sonic 2, later famously adopted by Dimps starting with Advance 3. Since the enemies, and at times even the level design, seem to be actively placed to punish you for going fast in the fastest title in the classic series, does that make those levels A-OK, since that was the perceived intent? They supposedly did it on purpose, so it's beyond reproach?

 

 

No. Never were. If there's something actively placed to punish you, it's no longer the principle I'm talking about. If an alement only makes sense and only works as a skill test if you're past a certain speed, it's not really a diffuse challenge anymore, now is it? You know those missile badniks in Green Hill that only appear when you're near them? Yeah, they suck. But most badniks have a pattern of their own and that don't depend on Sonic, so that it's you who reacts to the stage and not the other way around. this is why they're made so as to make you not do something - there's a specific behaviour they can stop, but any other action will make you progress.

 

There are some things Sonic Advance 3 does particularly poorly though. You can survive being hit by a badnik you didn't see coming, but if you repeat the same behaviour forever, you eventually die. Using Orbinaut as another example, you can try and hit him once. It won't work, and then you'll do whatever the next time you find one (jump over it, use insta-shield, become Super Sonic etc), but if you keep trying to hit it, you'll die. And dying is important. That's when either you change routes or you learn how not to die in the same route. But that depends on the amount of rings you have and how many rings there are in the path you're crossing. Sonic Advance 3, and indeed every game after S3&K, has way too many rings. It means you have way too much life. Somehow they noticed it and instead of reducing the number of rings, they step up the threats, so nearly all levels have bottomless pits.

 

P.S.: If you think being a jerk is better than being pretentious, I'll change my ways next time to match yours

˙ ͜ʟ˙

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If you think being a jerk is better than being pretentious, I'll change my ways next time to match yours

 

 

Come on Palas, no need for this :P

But that was the concept from which the game was brought up. Carol Yas said so himself. No amount of remapping will change that, even if it doesn't really break the game. It's not like you're not playing Sonic if you take that away, but indeed that was what the game was built around and that was how the level design came to be. It's such a fundamental requirement to the classic titles that it was a rom hack that allowed you to actually control the ability to transform when the original titles could have done that.

 

This is for the first Sonic game though. It's natural to take a fundamental design decision and evolve it. I bet that there was some contention in Sonic Team to introduce the Spin-Dash because it radically changes how the level design was the only way you built up speed, rather than simply using an action as well. Still, the spindash turned out to be the best design change in the Classic Series and it's arguably Sonic's most iconic move in the series next to Boost.

 

I don't think it's a radical move to introduce a transformation button. The Super form isn't exactly the limelight of Sonic games and you wouldn't be using that second button for anything else. It's not like the simplicity is being thrown right out the window.

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Come on Palas, no need for this :P

This is for the first Sonic game though. It's natural to take a fundamental design decision and evolve it. I bet that there was some contention in Sonic Team to introduce the Spin-Dash because it radically changes how the level design was the only way you built up speed, rather than simply using an action as well. Still, the spindash turned out to be the best design change in the Classic Series and it's arguably Sonic's most iconic move in the series next to Boost.

I don't think it's a radical move to introduce a transformation button. The Super form isn't exactly the limelight of Sonic games and you wouldn't be using that second button for anything else. It's not like the simplicity is being thrown right out the window.

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I do. Since you haven't made a post in this thread that wasn't intellectually dishonest, even when attempting to scold me for calling you out on it the first time, I'll file you under "both" already anyway.

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To be fair, it's impossible to complete Knuckles's stages without gliding and climbing. Not having a transformation button in this case is actually a detriment to the player in this case. It's petty, I know, but it's still true.

I don't quite get why you are against a transformation button? Super forms are so infrequent it's not like having a transformation button is a radical change of the game philosophy.

You sure? I'm trying to remember parts but I can only remember, like, Sandopolis when you can't jump high enough and are thrown in another path.

EDIT: either way this is beside the point, because it's just like one of those "well but you don't NEED to use the Homing Attack" arguments". Even if you *could* do it, it'd be a self-inflicted challenge. You might as well play licking your own elbow.

But I'm not against a transformation button. I'm against what it might entail, but it can not happen too like in the way you mentioned. Just like it's not the one action button per se that matters, it's what entails. Changing the button map and keeping the tradeoff and the fact that you have to throw yourself at enemies to defeat them is what matters.

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You sure? I'm trying to remember parts but I can only remember, like, Sandopolis when you can't jump high enough and are thrown in another path.

But I'm not against a transformation button. I'm against what it might entail, but it can not happen too like in the way you mentioned. Just like it's not the one action button per se that matters, it's what entails. Changing the button map and keeping the tradeoff and the fact that you have to throw yourself at enemies to defeat them is what matters.

As well as Sandopolis, as you've mentioned, there's levels where you don't need to use Knuckles's abilities but the levels are designed around them, like Angel Island 2, Launch Base 2 and Carnival Night 2. Admittedly, Sonic 3 doesn't tend force his abilities like I thought (which is testament to its brilliant design) but it does offer levels designed with his actions in mind.

 

Yes, the fact you can't transform with a transformation button is a massive nit-pick, but the problem still does exist. I think mapping the transformation button to a mid-air jump was designed with Sonic in mind and not much thought was put into Tails and Knuckles. It's a huge nit-pick, but it's still an oversight.

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Yes, the fact you can't transform with a transformation button is a massive nit-pick, but the problem still does exist. I think mapping the transformation button to a mid-air jump was designed with Sonic in mind and not much thought was put into Tails and Knuckles. It's a huge nit-pick, but it's still an oversight.

I agree, it is very irritating that you need to push the jump button twice to transform. I played S3&K just about week ago as Tails and there were many instances were I would have transformed but I didn't wanted because I either wanted to save it later part of the level where it would come more handy (like in Death egg zone to final boss) or because some other reason (Sky sanctuary I just wanted to hear the music). That means no flying or swimming. And with Knuckles no gliding. And this also affects Sonic since if he has 50 rings, he can't do insta-shield.

Overall, is Sonic 3 aged well. Yes, it is. Because this "press the button twice" is honestly one of my biggest complains. Off course I have not played likes of Sonic Advance or Rush or games like Freedom planet so I don't know gow this speed-based 2D platforming is evolved since that.

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Okay Sonic 3? Well let's start from the basics. Sonic 3 has been praised numerous times for being one of the best Sonic The Hedgehog games ever. Reason being probably because it has bigger and better level design and the fact it has more things to do in general.

Also most likely it had quote on quote DLC which was Sonic and Knuckles. Which was that you could lock the two games on each other to have the full experience.

Also it's a game that's been loved by the Sonicfan base for a very long time and I can see why.

Alright! Did Sonic 3 age well? I certainly think it did, people still love it to this day. Because it's just a game that everybody loves going back too! Because Sonic 3 is just a classic! :)

Well that's all I have to say!

PS Sonic 3 is a game that should be played by everybody! It's just that great! :)

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Since Sonic 3 and Knuckles is, in my opinion, a tad popular, I thought it would be fun to look at where the game made some mistakes. Don't get me wrong, I think the game is a masterpiece and the best Sonic game ever made. That said, I would like to explore where the game made some misfires.

So I'll list some reasons I think the game makes mistakes:

The levels can sometimes be too long for their own good and needlessly convoluted. People often point to Sandopolis 2, which is a terrible level. I didn't particularly like Marble Garden either though for similar reasons. 

Whilst Blue Sphere is a better Special Stage than its predecessors, I still think it is pretty boring in its own right. I'd like to have seen the actual core gameplay somehow serve as the concept of the Special Stages.

I think some of the level concepts are a bit more generic than Sonic 2. Lava Reef (fire level), Ice Cap (snow level), Sandopolis (sand level) compared to Oil Ocean, Wing Fortress or Casino Night from Sonic 2 for example. Of course Sonic 3AK has some really unique levels, but I think Sonic 2 has a more unique setlist in whole.

I think the sprite art in Sonic 2 was a bight cleaner and nicer on the eyes than Sonic 3's. Sometimes the Sonic 3AK levels and characters can look a bit too cluttered for me.

List your own examples :)

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I actually think a lot of the levels in the Sonic 3 cartridge are kinda bad,  angel Island and hydrocity are pretty good, and Ice Cap is a real standout, but the rest ranges from kinda forgettable to just bad. A lot of these levels go on for too long. Sonic & Knuckles on the other hand just goes from strength to strength, with Sandopolis Zone being just OK as the worst level. 

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Competition Mode was blatantly tacked on. While it's an okay mini game and better than nothing, it's very simple. I get implementing Sonic 2's VS mode would have been harder with Sonic 3's more complex level design, but the levels in Competition Mode are so basic and can be completed in about a minute. This would have been okay if there were a lot of them to go through, but there's all of five. I mean what other racing game only gives you five tracks to play with? Hmm?.....

Even more annoyingly it was about the one thing that wasn't fine tuned at all with Sonic and Knuckles. It would have been a neat idea if S&K alone had it's own Competition Mode with levels different from S3, and the lock on function would have given you the full selection of both.

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I think for when you lock on, they should have mixed up the zone order, so you'd have some S&K zones in the middle of Sonic 3 levels, like how they intended to with Flying Battery. I think it's a bit jarring because the first half of the game has a shit ton of water while the second half has none at all. I also think some levels, mainly in the S&K half but also in Sonic 3 (Ice Cap Act 1 mainly) get quite linear, with only one or two options for alternate paths, and they're mainly shortcuts. Minor flaw, but still. The S&K half in my opinion is also weaker than the Sonic 3 half, with levels like Sandopolis getting pretty clunky at times, and overly long. Sonic 3 has some long ass levels too, but they're faster paced and there's more opportunity to jump the track or take shortcuts. In the S&K half, you're often unable to do that, which makes Sandopolis Act 2 so infamously tedious.

 

Oh yeah, and the Super mapping sucks. It's not as bad as Sonic, as having a shield means you don't transform and instead do your special move, but Tails and Knuckles are stuck even with a shield.

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maxresdefault.jpg

These fuckers. So help me god I cannot control them. 

I played through Marble Garden last night and the amount of 'gotcha' enemy and spike placements are so frustrating, to the extent that I only played Marble Garden last night. It took forever, and I don't consider myself crap at Sonic 3. The amount of precision necessary to make split second jumps and dodges just forces me to go slow, because the game will just throw a ball on a chain at you from off screen. And the crushing spikes in that level can fuck right off too.

1 hour ago, Semi-colon e said:

I think for when you lock on, they should have mixed up the zone order, so you'd have some S&K zones in the middle of Sonic 3 levels, like how they intended to with Flying Battery.

This would have been great

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Really at some point you can't denied that Sonic 3 and Knuckle was an promises sequel just like Sonic 2 was for Sonic 1 or CD.

I find the game has flaws but kinda hard when the game is just very that great experience, sure indeed Sandopolis act 2 and carnival night act 2 barrel of doom are pretty annoying at some peoples. I do find some of those zone memorable, IceCap-Zone, angel island, mushroom hill and battery flying zone as example. The Soundtrack is pretty sweet too. i do very feel in love with that boss act 1 from S&Knuckles compared to the previous ost on Sonic 3, lava reef act 2 actual song level is lovely too i do find.

There also this fan Soundtrack made call Project Chaos, there a playlist of that on Youtube somewhere around still today i believe. worth to take a look of that if you enjoyed the soundtrack of S3&K.

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