Another Sonic 2006 theory.

[DC111]

A discussion about Emerald-loops broke out in the Multiple Blazes topic, effectively throwing it OFF topic, so I decided to start another one about it here.

See, in Sonic 2006, it appears as though Elise had the blue Chaos Emerald for a long time. This throws all the previous games out of whack, because how could Elise have had one of the Emeralds all along when Sonic and the others have had all seven in the Genesis games, the Adventures, et cetera? BUT WAIT.

I provided an explanation for this in the YOUR Sonic Storyline topic without even meaning to, and then realized that it sort of worked, so I'll repost it:

The blue Chaos Emerald mystery, to me, is NOT a plot-hole. It actually makes perfect sense. She has had the blue Emerald for 10 years - since

at 6:20). See... Silver goes back in time 10 years, which is BEFORE Sonic and co. EVER used the Chaos Emeralds, and gives Elise the Emerald. What does this do? CHANGES THE FUTURE so that there is no way anyone ever used ALL SEVEN Emeralds - from Sonic 1 to before Sonic 2006, and everything in between. There's a SIDE of this story that we do not see; a side where Perfect Chaos never existed (because there were only 6 Emeralds), where Sonic never transformed to Super Sonic (only 6 Emeralds), where everything that happened in the games was a little DIFFERENT. However, this version of events was effectively ERASED when Solaris's flame was blown out at the end of the game, because everything that happened was erased.

Thoughts?

[azoo]

...but then again, none of these shenanigans ever happened so Elise never got the emerald THUS Sonic and co. have always been collecting the 7 Chaos Emeralds anyways.

[Diogenes]

If I'm remembering '06 right, the emerald is part of an ontological paradox. Young Elise gets the emerald from Silver, then loses it 10 years later, and it eventually ends up with Silver, who travels back in time and gives it to her. So when you trace the path of the emerald, it never leaves that loop, so not only was it never anywhere or anywhen else, it also was never created.

Y'know, '06 seemed intent on playing with all sorts of time travel paradoxes at the same time. Even when it shouldn't be possible for all of them to be possible.

Also, there's some evidence that there's more than one set of emeralds. Elise having one from Soleanna's set wouldn't prevent Sonic from using the West Side Island set.

[Rusty Spy]

I'll post what I said in the Storyline topic.

There IS a logical explanation as to how all the events in the canon could have taken place like normally rather than this alternate universe you described. Silver takes an emerald from the present and gives is to Elise in the past, effectively making 8 emeralds in existence. Silver never took an emerald from the past, he was given it in the present time. Of course, after the time reset, the emerald was no longer in Elise's possession and thus, the 8th emerald ceases to exist.

[DC111]

I'll post what I said in the Storyline topic.

Pretty much Emerald cloning, then? That makes sense, too - as much as it can make sense. But any theory concerning Sonic 2006 and time paradoxes can only be logical to a certain point, I guess.

[Badnik Zero]

It's like if you went back in time and met yourself - there'd be two of you.

One is the timeline you, and the other is the you from the future. But if you touch each other you explode!

I'm sure that's the self-explodey rule of time travel, you just totally explode.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Badnikz

[HunterTSF]

I'll post what I said in the Storyline topic.

However, I do believe the Emeralds have been depicted as being time-transcendent. The characters in Sonic '06 used them to Chaos Control through time several times throughout the story. By your explanation, that means they could have ended up with 11 or more Chaos Emeralds by the end of the game. Also, in Sonic Rivals, Eggman Nega states:

Fine! If you want to know so badly, I'll tell you! I turned the Master Emerald into a card using my camera by taking a picture of it from the future Angel Island. Since the Master Emerald is a unique object that exists across the time-space continuum... When the future emerald was turned into a card, its existence in all the time frames vanished as well.

Sonic '06 had a confusing plot full of crazy plotholes. Some things are better left unexplained.

Edited July 29, 2009 by HunterTSF

[Rusty Spy]

However, I do believe the Emeralds have been depicted as being time-transcendent. The characters in Sonic '06 used them to Chaos Control through time several times throughout the story. By your explanation, that means they could have ended up with 11 or more Chaos Emeralds by the end of the game.

No, all the other times, they had taken the emeralds with them, never leaving any when they went back to the present. What would be a plothole is that team Sonic and Shadow go on a search for the emeralds in the future so they can return to the present. Now, assuming they brought the emeralds with them to the present is unknown(they sort of disappear right after doing Chaos Control), but if they did, your argument would be somewhat correct. But the point is, Silver never could have changed the timeline by giving Elise that one emerald since it had come from the present, or the future at that point in time, and was not one of the 7 already existing at that point in time.

Fine! If you want to know so badly, I'll tell you! I turned the Master Emerald into a card using my camera by taking a picture of it from the future Angel Island. Since the Master Emerald is a unique object that exists across the time-space continuum... When the future emerald was turned into a card, its existence in all the time frames vanished as well.

Now that doesn't make sense. If the future emerald was turned into a card, only it's existence in all future time frames would vanish, not all of them.

[Icecoldfrieza]

Before Silver gave the blue emerald to Elise, there were 7 chaos emeralds. After he gave Elise the emerald from the future, there were 8 chaos emeralds in existence (including two blue ones).

[HunterTSF]

No, all the other times, they had taken the emeralds with them, never leaving any when they went back to the present. What would be a plothole is that team Sonic and Shadow go on a search for the emeralds in the future so they can return to the present. Now, assuming they brought the emeralds with them to the present is unknown(they sort of disappear right after doing Chaos Control), but if they did, your argument would be somewhat correct. But the point is, Silver never could have changed the timeline by giving Elise that one emerald since it had come from the present, or the future at that point in time, and was not one of the 7 already existing at that point in time.

Fair enough. But I do believe that after performing Chaos Control, they are still in possession of the Emeralds - they did pull them out of hammerspace on some occasions in scenes after they travel through time.

Fine! If you want to know so badly, I'll tell you! I turned the Master Emerald into a card using my camera by taking a picture of it from the future Angel Island. Since the Master Emerald is a unique object that exists across the time-space continuum... When the future emerald was turned into a card, its existence in all the time frames vanished as well.

Now that doesn't make sense. If the future emerald was turned into a card, only it's existence in all future time frames would vanish, not all of them.

But that's just what it did - the Master Emerald exists in the past, present, and future all simultaneously as a transcendent object unaffected by the time-space around it. It wouldn't matter when Eggman Nega transformed it into a card, because it's not a part of time - the fact that Nega did this 200 years in the future is irrelevant. The Master Emerald was transformed into a card, and taken into Eggman Nega's possession, and it was erased from all real-world time frames - which is why it disappeared right in front of Knuckles in present day.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I'll post what I said in the Storyline topic.

This would be nice, but as Diogenes said, THAT blue Emerald is stuck in an ontological paradox which is actually considerably WORSE than the 8-Emeralds-at-once "paradox". The blue emerald has neither an origin before the Elise loop, nor a future after it. It goes (starting from an arbitrary point):

1. Silver & Blaze find it in White Acropolis after beating the Egg-Genesis boss
   
2. Silver eventually gives it to Young Elise in the past
   
3. Elise keeps it for 10 years
   
4. Elise lobs it at Sonic as Robotnik kidnaps her just after the Festival of the Sun
   
5. Sonic puts it in Robotnik's time machine in White Acropolis
   
6. REPEAT TIMES INFINITY!!
   

At no point in its entire cyclical history does the Emerald ever get introduced to, or kicked out of, this sequence. It's not just that the emerald time travels, causing there to be "two blue Emeralds at once" for 10 years or so; that blue Emerald NEVER gets out of the loop.

And that's why we turn to Closed Timelike Curves. My take on the whole thing is that all the weird junk that happens in '06 (like Chaos Emeralds allowing time travel, once the exclusive domain of the Time Stones) is allowed only because they're on a doomed worldline. The impending paradox raised by extinguishing the Flame of Hope at the end means that causality is pretty much fucked up throughout the game. Which does weird things to transcendental objects like the Emeralds - like letting then loop as above - and the mangled fabric of spacetime makes time travelling via Chaos Control rather easier as well.

SONIC + HAWKING = SUCCESS?

[BakingBluePotatoe]

Wait a sec...

Unless I missed something... As far as I know Silver didn't have any Chaos Emeralds until he found the blue one... wich he gave to Elise... then we see him pull out the white Chaos Emerald to use Chaos Control.

But where did he get that emerald?

Wasn't there a white emerald where Silver in the past?

It seems as though he just took that emerald...

so if he took the white emerald from the past and gave Elise the blue one from the future/present....

... um... doesn't.. that.. mean...

If Elise had the blue emerald, and Silver took the white one... I think that means there's still the same amount. 7. And Elise had the 7th. So only 6 could've been available! >.<

[Chan Kaylore]

I'll post what I said in the Storyline topic.

Going by that logic, there's actually two more Emeralds if you watch through to the end of Silver's story. After he bids Sonic farewell, he's given that Emerald, and, along with his own, takes them to his own time

in order to seal Iblis.

Pime Taradox indeed.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Wait a sec...

Unless I missed something... As far as I know Silver didn't have any Chaos Emeralds until he found the blue one... wich he gave to Elise... then we see him pull out the white Chaos Emerald to use Chaos Control.

But where did he get that emerald?

Wasn't there a white emerald where Silver in the past?

It seems as though he just took that emerald...

Hell, I never thought of that.

Where DOES he get the grey-white one from!?

*Youtubes*

EDIT: OK, the mystery appearence of the white-grey Emerald isn't that "mystery" at all. It first comes into play when the Duke uses it after the Solaris Project explosion to seal Iblis in Elise, and then Silver takes it with him to the present, and eventually to the future. So THAT one's a more conventional "You took it out of the timeline for 10 years so Sonic could never go Super, you bastard" paradox.

Which is still pretty damn messed up.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Badnik Zero]

You guys, this is where all the emeralds from Sonic Spinball come from!

Sega is actually closing continuities on us, behind our backs! They didn't think we would notice...

Edited July 30, 2009 by Badnikz

[Chaotix Prime]

Just a thought (I haven't personally played this game, but I've wikied it and read a lot of fan comments); nothing I want too much debate over: what if the emerald Silver found in the future was taken from the past (from a point before Sonic 1) and that would explain why you couldn't collect the other blue emerald in the very first game. Sega never did explain why Sonic 2 introduced another emerald.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Just a thought (I haven't personally played this game, but I've wikied it and read a lot of fan comments); nothing I want too much debate over: what if the emerald Silver found in the future was taken from the past (from a point before Sonic 1) and that would explain why you couldn't collect the other blue emerald in the very first game. Sega never did explain why Sonic 2 introduced another emerald.

But Silver didn't find ANY Emeralds in the future. Mephiles has a purple one in Crisis City that he uses to show Silver the Iblis Trigger, but Mephs keeps that one for himself through the entire game.

And if you meant the blue one that Silver finds in the PRESENT... see loop.

[BlazingTales]

Here's my theory: IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Thinking about the plot hole and paradox that is Sonic 06 makes my brain hurt because it doesn't make sense. All I need to know is the story never occured, so now I can sleep easy without having to come up with theories on how it COULD have happened.

[Chaotix Prime]

Here's my theory: IT NEVER HAPPENED.

True dat. Still, I always thought the whole 6 emeralds in Sonic 1 could (maybe not NEED) have been expounded upon.

[Mau]

Just thought I'd point out something here but, didn't the very first Sonic game have only six chaos emeralds?

Maybe there's a deeper point to this. Still it wouldn't explain why Sonic and co. have had all seven emeralds previously...

[Sean]

The seventh was added because Naka wanted to add the DBZ throwback/spoof.

[Ember Aithne]

It's because Knux had the secret Grey emerald and only revealed it in Triple Trouble, if we're going with canon explanation.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Ember Aithne

[Silencer226]

A discussion about Emerald-loops broke out in the Multiple Blazes topic, effectively throwing it OFF topic, so I decided to start another one about it here.

See, in Sonic 2006, it appears as though Elise had the blue Chaos Emerald for a long time. This throws all the previous games out of whack, because how could Elise have had one of the Emeralds all along when Sonic and the others have had all seven in the Genesis games, the Adventures, et cetera? BUT WAIT.

I provided an explanation for this in the YOUR Sonic Storyline topic without even meaning to, and then realized that it sort of worked, so I'll repost it:

The blue Chaos Emerald mystery, to me, is NOT a plot-hole. It actually makes perfect sense. She has had the blue Emerald for 10 years - since

at 6:20). See... Silver goes back in time 10 years, which is BEFORE Sonic and co. EVER used the Chaos Emeralds, and gives Elise the Emerald. What does this do? CHANGES THE FUTURE so that there is no way anyone ever used ALL SEVEN Emeralds - from Sonic 1 to before Sonic 2006, and everything in between. There's a SIDE of this story that we do not see; a side where Perfect Chaos never existed (because there were only 6 Emeralds), where Sonic never transformed to Super Sonic (only 6 Emeralds), where everything that happened in the games was a little DIFFERENT. However, this version of events was effectively ERASED when Solaris's flame was blown out at the end of the game, because everything that happened was erased.

Thoughts?

Yeah... or maybe Sonic Team is horrible at making storylines and we shouldn't put too much thought into it...

[Saint Nathan]

You people have the idea of time all wrong.

Time is only relative. We use our idea of "time" to measure what we know on our world. However, on another world, a diffrent sun, a diffrent orbit, diffrent everything, time moves diffrently. To us, it could be slower or faster, but to anything on it, it would be normal. OUR time may go faster or slower than ANOTHER idea of time.

Now, using that, an entity could be in a diffrent plane of time. The Chaos Emeralds are known to be objects existing though time, thus, it is possible for them to use time diffrently. In SRA, it was mentioned that the emeralds may have sentinece, what does this open up?

Imagine, a creature that moves though time on it's own accord, and can control energy and time. When two Chaos Controls meet, they create a rip in time. When used otherwise they can create bolts of energy.

Now, since the emeralds exist on a diffrent plane of time, they can obviously bypass many ideas of our time, such as possible time travel paradoxes. The grey emerald, the only plothole emerald, also runs by this rule.

Now, here's what is supposed to happen.

Silver gets emerald,

Sonic somehow can get the emerald though all games up to 06

Silver takes it into the future.

In what we would concieve, this means there are TWO grey emeralds at the end, and Sonic could never logically get it.

But here's where the diffrent planes come in.

The emerald could move SLOWER though time than Silver. Meaning it left him when he time traveled, and stayed around for ten years, only to eventually end up back with Silver the second he came back to the present. This would also hold true to the future. Meaning the Emerald can travel as much as it wants but there would still be only one.

Or, if you understood none of that, 06 never fucking happened. Meaning what we saw was a possibility, what could have happened but what obviously didn't.

Either way, it's slightly hard on the brain.

[Chaos Member]

A discussion about Emerald-loops broke out in the Multiple Blazes topic, effectively throwing it OFF topic, so I decided to start another one about it here.

See, in Sonic 2006, it appears as though Elise had the blue Chaos Emerald for a long time. This throws all the previous games out of whack, because how could Elise have had one of the Emeralds all along when Sonic and the others have had all seven in the Genesis games, the Adventures, et cetera? BUT WAIT.

I provided an explanation for this in the YOUR Sonic Storyline topic without even meaning to, and then realized that it sort of worked, so I'll repost it:

The blue Chaos Emerald mystery, to me, is NOT a plot-hole. It actually makes perfect sense. She has had the blue Emerald for 10 years - since

at 6:20). See... Silver goes back in time 10 years, which is BEFORE Sonic and co. EVER used the Chaos Emeralds, and gives Elise the Emerald. What does this do? CHANGES THE FUTURE so that there is no way anyone ever used ALL SEVEN Emeralds - from Sonic 1 to before Sonic 2006, and everything in between. There's a SIDE of this story that we do not see; a side where Perfect Chaos never existed (because there were only 6 Emeralds), where Sonic never transformed to Super Sonic (only 6 Emeralds), where everything that happened in the games was a little DIFFERENT. However, this version of events was effectively ERASED when Solaris's flame was blown out at the end of the game, because everything that happened was erased.

Thoughts?

That's pretty cool, I never thought of that before...good thinking.