*(The TSOS Community Has Voted - Time To Get Real!)*

[Chris Knopps]

Around or a little over two weeks ago, I posted a questionnaire of sorts asking the members of TSOS what direction they prefer for the Sonic franchise visually, and which direction used over the years they would prefer the franchise continue/return to. The results conclude that by and large, most fans of the franchise here want Sonic to return to a more realistic atmosphere.

 

While many don't mind a balance of realism and fantasy, it was a tough time finding members willing to see the current direction continue seen in the Lost World title, where fantasy is the primary objective visually. By and large, most fans would prefer the franchise to return to a primarily realistic atmosphere, with just enough fantasy within to remind you it's still a Sonic game, such as in the SA2 and Unleashed titles, with many pointing Unleashed out as a definite sweet spot of balance between real and toon.

While there aren't many fans outright against fantasy entirely within the franchise, the common agreement between members is that currently the franchise just doesn't cut it as one befitting the blue blur. Fantasy has always been a part of Sonic, but majority rules it shouldn't be the dominating aspect of any Sonic title, but should instead compliment it by being sprinkled within the primarily realistic atmosphere around you in each game.

What do you folks around here think? Do you share a common agreement as well?

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I perfer a mix. I like zany environments but I don't want them to look too plastic. The problem with Lost World is that everything looked too plastic and the lighting also played a factor to. Look at the Genesis games, they had wacky worlds, however the amount of lighting used made them look less plastic and more realistc while keeping it's wackyness. 

[FriendBot]

I think the proper mix of fantasy, realistic AND action elements is the proper mix for a visual style for Sonic. While I do love how great the levels in Unleashed look like, I juts don't feel there's that much fantasy elements to it. I mean sure, you rail grind around the clocktower and bobsleigh on top a humpback whale's back. But I still don't feel like these locations feel like locations that can exist in the world of Sonic. It might just be a personal thing so yeah.

In the other side of the spectrum, there's the lost World and other various wacky environments. I mean sure, they look dumb and kinda mindless but it felt creative to me, I mean people gave a lot of crap about DeSsert Ruins Zone 3 about how it has no place in a desert level outside of obvious wordplay. But I found fascinating to see what a food level would look like in a Sonic game and it delivered in that stage, I mean the level itself was pretty standard and linear but it look was creative in a mindless way, which I feel isn't that bad. I find it silly how people find food levels ridiculous when when we have a level made up of instruments in Advance 2 and PEOPLE LOVED THAT STAGE!

And of course since Sonic has an action hero feel to the series, a good amount of action setpieces are kinda needed to make each stage pop out which is what I feel what could help make the levels in Unleashed or Lost World pop out more.

I mean, I feel more leaning towards more fantasy/cartoony looking levels rather than realistic ones since Sonic is a CARTOONY action hero, I like to see strange new worlds that look absurd but yet somehow grounded and feel realistic enough and of course, some action eyecandy to make it pop.

You just need that proper balance between the two and try not to to go too far at either side.

[Speeps]

Lost World's direction was okay, but I definitely didn't find it as good as the stuff from any of the games that came before it. One of the reasons I don't really like the Lost World direction as much as the previous ones is that it just came in so abruptly. I don't even have to go far back to get an example of a good balance between toon and realism in Sonic games: A lot of the levels in Unleashed, Colors and Gens show off their stuff really well and then it's just this really weird toon style out of nowhere.

Although granted, things can start looking weird with too much realism.. 06 and Shadow had a way too realistic approach for me, particularly with the humans because they looked really out of place next to Sonic and co. Personally, I prefer the ones from Unleashed, which I feel fit because Eggman fits in extremely well with them.

Also, don't do this:

Don't redesign characters to fit in with a weird direction, it doesn't work and you'll only end up with Young Sonic.

So yeah, on one side of the spectrum you've got games with too much realism like 06 and on the other side you've got games like Lost World. Games like Unleashed, Colors and Gens worked the best for me, so that's where I think Sonic should lie in this case.

 

[Semi-colon e]

I think I like how the classics, Colours, and Generations did it the most. All these games have several wacky and surreal environments as well as more typical gamey or realistic type environments but the detail within them makes them feel like actual places and gives a sense of location, or some cartoony edge in the more realistic levels. Unleashed to me was basically a better version of the sort of stuff seen in Shadow and 06 where it's overly realistic. Colours had really wacky environments, but constructed with enough detail to be actual places. Generations did really well, with stuff like Speed Highway and Crisis City looking realistic and gorgeous but also with either cartoony elements or vibrant colours to give off that fantasy edge. But then you've got games like Sonic 1 which were very surreal in design, yet had realistic elements such as actual factories in Scrap Brain or unusually realistic looking buildings in Starlight Zone.

I don't think Unleashed did fantasy well at all, it just overall looks too realistic to me, same with SA2. Neither make me feel like I'm playing a Sonic game aesthetically. I will always love Generations for making Crisis City fit within the style of the series despite the incredibly desolate and depressing location by way of having the weird purpley grey sky and the bright oranges. I guess it also helps that by this point, realistic cities were as prominent as the Green Hill thing in the franchise.

As for actual stage settings... given the right art style, pretty much anything goes at this point. I mean Sonic's done nearly everything, so it's more about the execution at this point. But that sense of location has to remain to make it feel like it could be a place, no matter how silly. I feel like Lost World failed in this regard.

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, sansy said:

people gave a lot of crap about DeSsert Ruins Zone 3 about how it has no place in a desert level outside of obvious wordplay. But I found fascinating to see what a food level would look like in a Sonic game and it delivered in that stage, I mean the level itself was pretty standard and linear but it look was creative in a mindless way, which I feel isn't that bad. I find it silly how people find food levels ridiculous when when we have a level made up of instruments in Advance 2 and PEOPLE LOVED THAT STAGE!

You know... I'll be honest on this topic.

Originally, in the Colors/Colours title, I didn't mind the food world, I actually thought it was neat myself. But the grave, very, very grave mistake SEGA/Mr. Iizuka did was come out and say Lost World was made to allow them to bring in more Mario fans, having created it for that sake on at least a 50% scale, (the later sentence my own belief all things considered) and with that statement in mind I believe that's what caused many fans to suddenly cry out against such stages in a Sonic game as it's felt as though it's done, not for the Sonic consumer, but the Mario consumer, which by and large many seem against, agreeably so in my opinion.

It wasn't until after SEGA/Mr. Iizuka made this statement that I looked back on various aspects and began thinking yeah, no, don't approve. Had that statement never been made, I think people wouldn't be as hostile about certain topics the way they are now and wouldn't constantly fuss about Mario in so many Sonic topics, another instance of incidentally digging your own grave with your own words.

[Clewis]

I like the surrealistic direction Sonic Team went in for Sonic CD the most, so I guess my preferences line up with wanting environments to be mostly fantasy-based while still providing a touch of realism here and there.

Personally I'd like to see future Sonic games maintain most of the in-level details introduced in Lost World (i.e. geometric flora, vivid colors, grass and dirt patterns, etc.) and mix them with the amount of detail and level of creativity found in Colors' environments. Or just adapt CD's art direction into a 3D environment.

Not really a big fan of overly realistic settings in Sonic games, especially when the only Sonic-like elements found in a level are loops and springs. Those kind of environments tend to lack a certain sense of flair that I've always come to associate with the franchise.

[Diogenes]

Sonic's design contradicts a realistic world. He's a noodle-armed, mono-eyed, shark-finned, bipedial, 3-foot-tall talking blue hedgehog. The series doesn't need to stick to the level of Lost World to be coherent, but building a world along the lines of SA2, '06, and maybe to some extent Unleashed, is committing to making Sonic look like an alien in his own world.

[Mauricius]

I'd say what makes good Sonic stages "tone" wise isn't actually the right tone between fantasy and realistic. Like Sansy said, people didn't complain about the music level in Sonic Advance 2, and I haven't seen anyone complain about City Escape despite that level being relatively realistic for Dreamcast graphics.

What made Sonic levels feel unique, were it for some more abstract levels in the Classics or a bit more realistic approach in SA2, is that they are cartoony, but they are inspired by real-world locations (or tropes in fiction) with some artistic freedom and creativity added. While many people think SA2 went too far in the realistic direction, I disagree. The game still has a lot of crazy stuff like pumpkin shaped mountains, giant trucks, grinding in outer space, a mine where you control the water... I just can't say the game is realistic when I look at the roads in that game. The only truly more realistic thing are the textures, but that's just Sonic Team trying to make the graphics better. Perhaps the humans look too ordinary to fit with the designs of anthros. I feel the series really only lost the charm after Heroes (which is quite similar to the classics in terms of level ideas) with ShTH and pretty much no latter games completely captured what made the Sonic levels unique.

I wouldn't say the mistake in ShTH and '06 is simply that they are too realistic - they really aren't (besides humans, but we're not discussing character designs now) and I think more realistic locations could fit Sonic if done the right way. The problem is that in those games they took inspiration from the real world, added loops... and stopped at that. There isn't enough creativity put in the levels and they lack cartoony ideas that this series needs.

Unleashed mastered the cartoony aspect and inspiration from real world locations, but I feel they still made the same mistake with creativity/artistic freedom in most levels. Dragon Road and Crimson Carnival I feel are good, but other stages feel too much like real places with loops or have other issues. Well, a huge part of Dragon Road actually doesn't feel like an actual location enough.

Colors and Generations finally have more creative ideas. However, since Colors bases all it's levels on theme park attractions and Generations bases them on the popular stages, they lack a feel of level progression. Terminal Velocity fits as a final level to the rest, but Generations doesn't have that final level where you know you're approaching the game's climax. The same goes for the stories of both games.

Now, the problem with Lost World is that they tried going too far with artistic freedom and the stages don't have anything realistic for their bases. That's not a problem in itself, but it just feels out of place compared to other titles. While I'm all in for more surreal environments, I feel Lost World lacks substance. There's also that they probably made the game that colorful to mimic Mario since they admitted trying to appeal to the Mario fanbase.

[Chris Knopps]

4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic's design contradicts a realistic world. He's a noodle-armed, mono-eyed, shark-finned, bipedial, 3-foot-tall talking blue hedgehog. The series doesn't need to stick to the level of Lost World to be coherent, but building a world along the lines of SA2, '06, and maybe to some extent Unleashed, is committing to making Sonic look like an alien in his own world.

Nonetheless I'd say going by sales it is the proper direction.

It doesn't matter regarding Sonic's design as he's a character that is universally fitting no matter the locations, it just depends on ones preferences, his design is not factual to the atmosphere he should be in. Only suggestive, but by and large Sonic can and does fit wherever he's at, the issues lies with what YOU don't like, not that he doesn't fit.

Let me put it this way...

Although by and large Sonic can and does fit in most locations, what determines the one most worthwhile is which locations sell the most, which locations fans provide the best response towards. Even if Sonic can, and again, does fit wherever SEGA seem to put him, even if he fits like PB&J it does no good if it's not anywhere fans enjoy, if it's not somewhere fans will pay to experience.

Where he is, that's a matter determined by sales and reception by the general community. Although this is the primary opinion of those on the TSOS page, by and large I'd say if you made a poll for the entirety of the fan base to vote on, the results would be along the same lines. TSS has had a similar thing in the past happen not long ago where the results were akin to those TSOS has come up with.

So... I'd say it's a safe bet to heed such feedback.

[shdowhunt60]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic's design contradicts a realistic world. He's a noodle-armed, mono-eyed, shark-finned, bipedial, 3-foot-tall talking blue hedgehog. The series doesn't need to stick to the level of Lost World to be coherent, but building a world along the lines of SA2, '06, and maybe to some extent Unleashed, is committing to making Sonic look like an alien in his own world.

SA2 was realistic?

[Diogenes]

I would say the majority of it was in the range of "too realistic for Sonic", yes. I think Pumpkin Hill and the ARK stages are the only ones that feel like a good fit for the series. Maybe Pyramid Cave at a stretch.

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

SA2 was realistic?

Primarily yes, with fantasy and Hollywood sprinkled in to give it that clear/distinct Sonic feeling/appearance.

[Hyp3hat]

3 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

SA2 was realistic?

Relatively speaking, yes - there's attempts to put real countries like America and Egypt and people like The President into Sonic The Hedgehog. There are lots of cartoony elements, but everyone recognises that City Escape is San Francisco.

Unleashed did it best - attempts at hyperrealism make Sonic look weird in comparison.

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, Hyp3hat said:

Relatively speaking, yes - there's attempts to put real countries like America and Egypt and people like The President into Sonic The Hedgehog. There are lots of cartoony elements, but everyone recognises that City Escape is San Francisco.

Unleashed did it best - attempts at hyperrealism make Sonic look weird in comparison.

That was the general thought by the community. Many, again, pointed out Unleashed as the sweet spot to aim for when there is a desire for the best of both worlds.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Please bring back Unleashed's Pixar styled worlds. It was a great mix.

[shdowhunt60]

15 minutes ago, Hyp3hat said:

Relatively speaking, yes - there's attempts to put real countries like America and Egypt and people like The President into Sonic The Hedgehog. There are lots of cartoony elements, but everyone recognises that City Escape is San Francisco.

Right, and what does Egypt look like in SA2?

Strange, I don't remember Egypt looking like that. 

And nevermind the space levels, the ARK levels, or Pumpkin Hill.

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Right, and what does Egypt look like in SA2?

Strange, I don't remember Egypt looking like that. 

And nevermind the space levels, the ARK levels, or Pumpkin Hill.

I gotta say, that background is quite lovely.

But yes, both SA2 and Unleashed did fairly well in mixing the two preferences together, as did SA1 really alongside the Genesis titles.

[shdowhunt60]

Even fully recognizing that SA2 has a different aesthetic, I fail to see how that necessarily made it a bad one. I've heard the complaint before how SA2 looks like San Francisco, and having actually lived there I definitely agree. But:

.

How does Sonic look remotely out of place here? I didn't see it in 2001, I didn't see it in 2006 (when all the whining about realism began), neither did I see it in 2008, nor did I see it when it came up again in 2011.

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Even fully recognizing that SA2 has a different aesthetic, I fail to see how that necessarily made it a bad one. I've heard the complaint before how SA2 looks like San Francisco, and having actually lived there I definitely agree. But:

.

How does Sonic look remotely out of place here? I didn't see it in 2001, I didn't see it in 2006 (when all the whining about realism began), neither did I see it in 2008, nor did I see it when it came up again in 2011.

It's as I said, he isn't out of place. He's generally universally fitting to any location he appears in, him being unfitting is merely an opinionated thing, never factual, keep this in mind. What matters is which locations sell the most copies of his titles, which locations get the greatest feedback from fans. It matters not how well he fits in a games locations if he is in places that cause low sales and poor feedback.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I can totally understand thinking Sonic was out of place in Sonic 06. Even the hubworlds were pretty much putting bounce pads in France and here you have Soleanna. Even Sonic and friends looked out of place as the humans were very much hyper realistic, hell even Eggman was more realistic. The anthropes had very large heads compared to the humans' bodies and the overall models felt flat. They just didn't go. 

However, I really do not get how Sonic was out of place in Sonic Adventure 1/2.  In the image that shdowhunt posted, I really don't get how Sonic looks out of place. Sonic Adventure 1/2's styles were very colorful even though the stages and hubworld were realistic. However, they made the Sonic characters emulate the same textures used for the worlds if that even makes any sense. Sonic 06, they put in France, but they put in this pale faded, big headed blue hedgehog in the mix and that is why it looked weird. Adventure series, they used the same detail and used the right amount of coloring and shading for the characters for them to blend in. 

[shdowhunt60]

I argue that nothing looked in place in 06. Not even Soleanna and its residents itself.

In what world would this character have worked in? 06's art direction failed before it even started.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I am saying that Sonic looked out of place there. The residents blend in, heck even Eggman fits more. Sonic and friends, not to much. They look way too big and plastic and also the models are dull compared to the residents. 

[Chris Knopps]

4 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I argue that nothing looked in place in 06. Not even Soleanna and its residents itself.

In what world would this character have worked in? 06's art direction failed before it even started.

I wouldn't say that... I liked the concept art/render of Sonic in this game, it looked much closer to his model in the CGi scenes.

...That really confused me, his CGi render and in-game render look... Really different, like they come from completely different games.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

...

Why are people giving SA1 a pass aesthetically and jumping against SA2? Again?

Are people really committing to this double standard? The differences between the two aren't that big.