*(The TSOS Community Has Voted - Time To Get Real!)*

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

...

Why are people giving SA1 a pass aesthetically and jumping against SA2? Again?

Are people really committing to this double standard? The differences between the two aren't that big.

I think they're significantly different enough to draw a line between them, even if it's not the thickest of dividing lines. I couldn't see SA2 doing anything like Casinopolis or Twinkle Park.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I think they're significantly different enough to draw a line between them, even if it's not the thickest of dividing lines. I couldn't see SA2 doing anything like Casinopolis or Twinkle Park.

Not really, both styles are pretty much the same except SA2's graphics have improved a little.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I think they're significantly different enough to draw a line between them, even if it's not the thickest of dividing lines. I couldn't see SA2 doing anything like Casinopolis or Twinkle Park.

Yet you can see them both do something similar like Red Mountain and Pumpkin Hill or City Escape and Speed Highway. Cherry picking differences like that isn't much of a division when there's a lot of overlap between them.

That would be like me drawing a line between Sonic 2 and 3&K because I somehow can't see 3&K doing Casino Night or Aquatic Ruins.

[Diogenes]

7 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

Not really, both styles are pretty much the same except SA2's graphics have improved a little.

Well it's not just the graphic style (though I'd still say SA2 trends a little darker in that as well) but the choice of settings. SA has a pretty wide variety of fantastic or larger-than-life settings; there's a level where you get sucked into a tornado, a casino with giant pinball tables, a theme park, a snowy mountain peak, the inside and outside of a volcano, etc. SA2 kinda goes, city, city at night, military base, jungle, desert, without anything that really spices them up.

15 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

Yet you can see them both do something similar like Red Mountain and Pumpkin Hill or City Escape and Speed Highway. Cherry picking differences like that isn't much of a division when there's a lot of overlap between them.

Yes, there is some overlap, but they average out to different places.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yes, there is some overlap, but they average out to different places.

So does every game in the franchise. That's not much of a point against SA2.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Well it's not just the graphic style (though I'd still say SA2 trends a little darker in that as well) but the choice of settings. SA has a pretty wide variety of fantastic or larger-than-life settings; there's a level where you get sucked into a tornado, a casino with giant pinball tables, a theme park, a snowy mountain peak, the inside and outside of a volcano, etc. SA2 kinda goes, city, city at night, military base, jungle, desert, without anything that really spices them up.

Yes, there is some overlap, but they average out to different places.

Well true the level tropes are different in SA2 but the style isn't more realistic in my opinion. As without things to spice them up... well there is Pumpkin Hill and Aquatic Ruins but still, the levels in SA1 were realistic as well. Beach, snowy mountain, Mayan Ruins etc etc. Maybe not as out there as Speed Highway by nonetheless.

[Remy]

16 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

So does every game in the franchise. That's not much of a point against SA2.

But come on, not every game in the franchise has several levels that are literally set in San Francisco. Picking Sonic as an example, you play through RL city streets, a military base, a fairly plain forest, a pretty sweet pyramid, and a fairly crazy, yet still kind of serious Anime military space station.

Like Diogenes has said, in SA1 you go through all this crazy shit- snow, mayan temple, tornadoes, volcano interiors, the bottom and top of an airship, a themepark, the casino etc. That variety to me, makes it more interesting than SA2's grounded stages.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Yeah I will admit there is more verity in SA1 but I stand by my notion that both games has pretty realistic levels, even if they were a tad bit out there, hell most of the levels there inspired by real life places. SA2's stages had more of a theme yes, but Sonic never looked out of place at all due to the art style.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 minutes ago, Remy said:

But come on, not every game in the franchise has several levels that are literally set in San Francisco. Picking sonic as an example, you play through RL city streets, a military base, a fairly plain forest, a pretty sweet pyramid, and a fairly crazy, yet still kind of serious Anime military space station.

Like Diogenes has said, in SA1 you go through all this crazy shit- snow, mayan temple, tornadoes, volcano interiors, the bottom and top of an airship, a themepark, the casino etc. That variety to me, makes it more interesting than SA2's grounded stages.

That's completely besides the whole point I was making?

I'm not talking about how much variety SA1 has over SA2, and I'm pretty sure everyone who's aware of those games knows their differences much in the same vein as they can see differences between Sonic 2 and S3&K. But their general aesthetics aren't so different that one is divorced from the other, as that's a complete double standard.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Yeah visual wise and style wise, I see no difference. 

[Remy]

3 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

That's completely besides the whole point I was making?

I'm not talking about how much variety SA1 has over SA2, and I'm pretty sure everyone who's aware of those games knows their differences much in the same vein as they can see differences between Sonic 2 and S3&K. But their general aesthetics aren't so separate that one is divorced from the other, as that's a complete double standard.

Level design/Setting is aesthetics though?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 minutes ago, Remy said:

Level design/Setting is aesthetics though?

Is that what I was saying?

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

That's completely besides the whole point I was making?

I'm not talking about how much variety SA1 has over SA2, and I'm pretty sure everyone who's aware of those games knows their differences much in the same vein as they can see differences between Sonic 2 and S3&K. But their general aesthetics aren't so different that one is divorced from the other, as that's a complete double standard.

And I'm saying that the kinds of levels that SA has, as compared to the kinds of levels SA2 has, makes SA a more "toony", less "realistic" game. The difference may not be as large as between most games, but it's enough that I feel I can honestly draw a distinction between them.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Just now, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

Is that what I was saying?

I thought we were speaking art style, not the level tropes which is what y'all were debating about

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

Is that what I was saying?

Nobody was dissing SA1 in favor of SA2 really, they fit in a generalized category as one in the same visually due to the realism/fantasy ratio within both titles being generally on par with one another. There is no superiority topic going on until... You made it a topic really.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

sometimes it that it seems that SA1 can get away with realism but people do bash SA2 for the same thing

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And I'm saying that the kinds of levels that SA has, as compared to the kinds of levels SA2 has, makes SA a more "toony", less "realistic" game. The difference may not be as large as between most games, but it's enough that I feel I can honestly draw a distinction between them.

It really isn't "toony." Not by a long shot. Fantastical, sure. But it still falls in the same "realistic" category as SA2 even if they have different themes - the distinction between them is about the same as that between Sonic 2 and 3&K, which is not a lot to completely separate them.

8 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

I thought we were speaking art style, not the level tropes which is what y'all were debating about

No, that exactly what I was talking about as well.

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, Mikyeong said:

sometimes it that it seems that SA1 can get away with realism but people do bash SA2 for the same thing

Mmm... SA2 pushed the boundary a bit more than SA1 but certainly nowhere near past the limit other titles did, so I'd say both games are just dandy when you think of comparisons.

I'd say if titles stick to what S3&K/SA/SA2/Unleashed did visually we're on pretty solid ground again.

[Wraith]

Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 have the same general idea, but there's a lot of nuance that separates the two games to the point where it's a bit a disservice to both to say that they're basically the same thing and that if you should be okay with one then you should be okay with the other.  There's a bit of whimsy in SA1 levels like Windy Valley Casinopolis, and Twinkle Park that Sonic Adventure 2 has much less of. 

Saying that there's a difference between the two doesn't really imply anything bad about Sonic Adventure 2, so I don't get the defensiveness in that regard. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I don't find SA1 to be toony. Was it out there? Yes but cartoony? Naw. 

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 have the same general idea, but there's a lot of nuance that separates the two games to the point where it's a bit a disservice to both to say that they're basically the same thing and that if you should be okay with one then you should be okay with the other.  There's a bit of whimsy in SA1 levels like Windy Valley Casinopolis, and Twinkle Park that Sonic Adventure 2 has much less of. 

Saying that there's a difference between the two doesn't really imply anything bad about Sonic Adventure 2, so I don't get the defensiveness in that regard. 

There's differences, but by and large they went for the same balance of the two visual appeals. Both had primary realism in various ways, yet had that whimsical fantasy/Hollywood touch that just felt... Good, something Unleashed really did well.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

18 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 have the same general idea, but there's a lot of nuance that separates the two games to the point where it's a bit a disservice to both to say that they're basically the same thing and that if you should be okay with one then you should be okay with the other.  There's a bit of whimsy in SA1 levels like Windy Valley Casinopolis, and Twinkle Park that Sonic Adventure 2 has much less of. 

Saying that there's a difference between the two doesn't really imply anything bad about Sonic Adventure 2, so I don't get the defensiveness in that regard. 

I wasn't being defensive, I was wondering why one was being treated as "toony" and the other "real" when they shared the same aesthetic of "real" - why else do we call them both the "Adventure-style?"

I don't get how people honestly think that equates to saying they have the same level tropes and elements like that means there aren't nuances between them. Absolutely no one said they were the same thing entirely. I even stated that, yes, there are differences between them despite having the same aesthetics (like basically every game in the franchise).

[Bowbowis]

10 minutes ago, Remy said:

But come on, not every game in the franchise has several levels that are literally set in San Francisco. Picking sonic as an example, you play through RL city streets, a military base, a fairly plain forest, a pretty sweet pyramid, and a fairly crazy, yet still kind of serious Anime military space station.

Like Diogenes has said, in SA1 you go through all this crazy shit- snow, mayan temple, tornadoes, volcano interiors, the bottom and top of an airship, a themepark, the casino etc. That variety to me, makes it more interesting than SA2's grounded stages.

SA2 had snowboarding down city streets, Egyptian pyramids, missile launches, haunted mountains shaped like pumpkins, a forest brimming with giant flora and fauna, a suspension bridge being bombed by fighter jets, a space station with fucked up gravity, and more. SA1's really doesn't have anything crazier than that. What's more is that SA2, despite only having five level tropes overall, still maintains a good deal of variety within those tropes. City Escape and Radical Highway both fall under the "City" trope but they are inarguably distinct from a visual standpoint. Same goes for Metal Harbor and Prison Lane in the "Military" trope; Sky Rail and Aquatic Mine in the "Mountain" trope; Pyramid Cave, Sand Ocean, and Dry Lagoon in the "Desert" trope; and Meteor Herd, Lost Colony, Crazy Gadget, and Final Rush in the "Space Colony" trope just to name a few examples.

[Diogenes]

20 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

It really isn't "toony." Not by a long shot.

In relative terms, CSS. If there's a scale with Lost World on the far left end and '06 on the far right, SA falls to the left of SA2. Not by a huge margin, but by a measurable one.

[Chris Knopps]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

In relative terms, CSS. If there's a scale with Lost World on the far left end and '06 on the far right, SA falls to the left of SA2. Not by a huge margin, but by a measurable one.

...Someone draw a picture of that. We need such a scale.