SEGA: "Sonic game quality will be fixed over time"

[Phos]

We are the problem. We can't have fun anymore. We've been playing Sonic games for many many years and experienced Sonic at his peak. Now we are grumpy old bastards.

We were kids once. We enjoyed Sonic at our youth and had fun, but now we've grown up and have nothing better to do but complain about every tiny thing that is wrong or right about Sonic. This is the most unforgiving fandom in the world.

Nope. Didn't like Sonic Adventure 2 when I was a kid either.

[Solid SOAP]

We are the problem. We can't have fun anymore. We've been playing Sonic games for many many years and experienced Sonic at his peak. Now we are grumpy old bastards.

Nah, new Sonic games just aren't good.

Except Unleashed, that's pretty fun.

[Barry the Nomad]

I'm definitely looking forward to Sega making a fighting game to follow up Sega All Stars Racing.

I'd like a new Fighters Megamix running on the VF5 engine, featuring a butt-load of Sega characters. Different from Smash Bros. and to be honest probably would be a much better game.

[PaddyFancy]

Nope. Didn't like Sonic Adventure 2 when I was a kid either.

Actually, I set my peak in the mid-90's. Sonic and Knuckles territory.

[Ferno]

Kids do like it. They don't give a damn about the quality or story. Instead they have fun playing. We are the problem. We can't have fun anymore. We've been playing Sonic games for many many years and experienced Sonic at his peak. Now we are grumpy old bastards.

We were kids once. We enjoyed Sonic at our youth and had fun, but now we've grown up and have nothing better to do but complain about every tiny thing that is wrong or right about Sonic. This is the most unforgiving fandom in the world.

Agreed. The only reason our fanbase is as infamous as it is is because of those certain fans who're constantly complaining about every little thing.

[Dreadknux]

Eurgh. It's nice that someone at Sega is acknowledging the complaints of older fans/general gamers/awesome people for a change, but this comment means nothing. To have our concerns shrugged off as a mere "that's their opinion" is really quite agitating.

I agree that it will take some time to get Sonic out of the quagmire, and Sonic Unleashed certainly isn't the direction to do it. Making a game that both "the kids" and the gaming populace in general can enjoy (read: plays actually good) is the key to bringing Sonic back. I think, it will take a while yet, but one day Sega will demo a Sonic game and it will finally feel like they've actually gone "You know what? What we've done for the last few years have been shit, let's just go back to what it was all about and actually make an awesome game".

I have renewed faith that it can happen to Sonic - if Sega can do it for Phantasy Star Zero (essentially, Phantasy Star Online on a DS, which = awesome) then they can do it for their biggest selling franchise. Sonic Unleashed and Sonic 06 are to Sonic Adventure 1 what Phantasy Star Universe was to Phantasy Star Online; completely missing the point.

Why do some people continue to complain about classic fanboys as if they're part of the problem?

This. Times infinity. There's a reason an awful lot of people don't post in this forum anymore. It's because there are an army of 'modern Sonic apologists' that will blanket older Sonic fans who actually enjoyed the older games (and are unlikely to have played the new games) with snotty, holier-than-thou retorts such as "Oh, Mobius? Oh, ahuhuhuh, such backwards thinking... Now, where's my Latte?".

Maybe 'classic fanboys' get ratted on so much by 'modern fanboys' because they actually have a point?

You just want a current gen version of that secret Green Hill Zone from Sonic Adventure 2.

Why not? It was the best level in the damn game.

EDIT:

You lot act like this hasn't happened before.

*Chaotix*

*3D Blast*

*Spinball*

*SegaSonic*

Spinoffs, not made by Sonic Team.

The only reason our fanbase is as infamous as it is is because of those certain fans who're constantly complaining about every little thing.

I think it's more to do with those who blindly accept the dubious-quality releases and will buy it based on name alone. Sonic isn't a name that is respected all that well in gamer circles anymore.

[Tornado]

I'm just going to chime in here, but:

You lot act like this hasn't happened before.

*Chaotix*

*3D Blast*

*Spinball*

*SegaSonic*

If Sega managed to recover from all of that the first time around and make fans happy, I see no reason why they can't do it again. Interestingly enough, if the quote is to be believed...

I don't see how that situation is even remotely comparable. The worst game there is probably 3D Blast, and modern reception (both inside and outside the fandom) to that game typically makes it out to be rather mediocre instead of abhorrent. Spinball and Chaotix were decent games with rather flawed execution; SegaSonic is about as well known (even within the fandom) as the Genesis version of Tetris; and none of those games were made by Sonic Team anyways. Those games were Sega milking the franchise to outside developers, usually in between the Sonic Team games.

What we have now is the meat and potatoes, honest to goodness Sonic Team games ranking from mediocre to shit. And for all of the love that Unleashed gets from within the fanbase (and even that is highly dividing), one can not honestly say that outside the fanbase the same love is applied. So to say that a few "meh" cash-in games Sega did when Sonic was huge is the same situation as the main series games being crapola is a gross generalization of the problem.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Tornado

[batson]

Totally of topic, but all this talk about "kids vs older fans" makes me realize just how damn old the part of the fanbase who played the Mega Drive games back when they originaly came out have gotten. I mean, of course im well aware of how old i am (22, if anyone is wondering), but it just never really struck me before that anyone who even remembers when Sonic made his initial burst into pop culture history would probably have to be over 20 years old. Man, and it seems like only yesterday that Sonic fan-forums were filled with 17-year olds who could recall when Sonic 1 first hit the stores. *sigh* We'll all be dead soon...

Ahem, sorry, i just needed to get that of my chest. Carry on.

[Mike]

I'm just going to chime in here, but:

I don't see how that situation is even remotely comparable.

- Most of those games suck.

- Most of today's games suck.

Of course when all the planets align and Sonic Team manages to give us one or two good games all is forgiven and the cycle repeats itself.

[Phos]

Actually, I set my peak in the mid-90's. Sonic and Knuckles territory.

So do I.

The point is that me being older isn't what made me stop liking new Sonic games. The games simply became substantially worse.

Like I said before, I don't agree with this article. The idea that a franchise improving gradually overtime is at all a practical or believable plan within the video game industry is laughable. Is Sakurai somehow super human for managing to make Smash Bros an excellent game on the franchise's first outing? How was it that Portal was able to be such an excellent game on it's first outing? They started with a simple, fun concept and and built upon it, and then went through many stages of testing. The first thing that seems to go through the head of any director at Sonic Team is "Let's add more crap!" Does it even cross their mind, for even a second, to really study the classic games and try and replicate what makes them fun? NO, they just make him faster, more linear, and with even more automation, then give him lycanthropy and make him collect medals to pad out the game.

I think older, die-hard Sega fans who grew up with the franchise and the first Sonic the Hedgehog associate Sonic more with 2-D side-scrolling super fast, and they liked the daytime gameplay,

See? They don't even seem to realize what they're doing, they're like someone who thinks everyone's looking at them because there's something on their shirt when really they're not wearing pants.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I honestly take a "middle of the road" approach.

I feel like the classic games had something special going, and that something has been tragically lost since their era, but at the same faith I have faith that modern Sonic can evolve its own special identity, mainly because I feel that the worst is over now that the failed rebirth that was Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 has come and gone.

And to be honest, while it may be a small thing, it's nice to see Sonic's western love of chili dogs show up in the Japanese mythology(I'm thinking of the opening scene of Black Knight).

[Cortez]

I've probably been beaten to the punch on this (didn't read past the first post) but this is like, the hundredth* time they've said this. (*Slight exaggeration)

[Daisoku]

And when you get the item 'Chili Dog' it has more or less the description of 'Sonic's favorite snack, complete with spicy Japalenos.'

I think.

I can't spell. x.x

Needless to say, I think I was squealing like a fangirl when I saw that.

Heck, I AM a fangirl! -squee-

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'd like a new Fighters Megamix running on the VF5 engine, featuring a butt-load of Sega characters. Different from Smash Bros. and to be honest probably would be a much better game.

Heh, I do miss Fighting Vipers.

And when you get the item 'Chili Dog' it has more or less the description of 'Sonic's favorite snack, complete with spicy Japalenos.'

I think.

I can't spell. x.x

Needless to say, I think I was squealing like a fangirl when I saw that.

Heck, I AM a fangirl! -squee-

Oh yeah, I remember hearing about that being in the 360/PS3 version of Unleashed.^^

[Mike]

I feel like the classic games had something special going, and that something has been tragically lost since their era, but at the same faith I have faith that modern Sonic can evolve its own special identity.

Certain things do need to change in order for a once 2D series to work in 3D.

Take Mega Man Legends for example. It's an incredibly fun original game, but plays nothing like the 2D sidscrolling games. Of course Capcom won't make a 3rd because they're a bunch of fu---******************!

[Tornado]

- Most of those games suck.

- Most of today's games suck.

So? Even if those games were viewed as harshly as the ones around today are (they aren't BTW), the situation still isn't the same because the purpose and creation of the games is different. Back then it was no-name developers (not really, of course, but you get my point) churning out the equivalent of mediocre licenced games to cash in on the success. They didn't have to be fantastic works of art. They had to be playable, and had to be recognizable as Sonic games. Today many have lost faith as to whether a good Sonic game of any kind can even be made. Can you honestly say that Spinball coming out made you lose faith in the entire series? I know its a controversial game, but give me a break.

Furthermore, the timing and scope of the games is completely different. Spinball was a stopgap game meant to ease fans waiting for the inevitable Sonic 3. SegaSonic was an obscure arcade game that no one even knew about. Chaotix and 3D Blast would be the only ones comparable to the situation now, but even then only 3D Blast fits because Chaotix was a 32X game and thus no one cared.

Even at the most base of levels the analogy fails; as the games Blacklightning listed aren't bad enough (or weren't viewed as such at the time) games for the comparison to work. To say that somehow what Sega is facing now after:

1. Heroes (where it became clear something was wrong) was made by Sonic Team
   
2. ShtH (whose mere announcement was pretty much when people outside the franchise stopped taking the series seriously) was made by Sonic Team
   
3. STH '06 (when people inside the franchise stopped trusting Sega) was made by Sonic Team
   
4. and Unleashed (which no one seems to be able to agree on whether it was good or not) was made by Sonic Team
   

is somehow equivalent to what they faced when

1. Spinball (a game with about the same period reception as Heroes which also came out when Sonic was huge beyond huge) was made by not Sonic Team
   
2. SegaSonic (a game barely anyone even knows about that was also made when Sonic was huge) was made by not Sonic Team
   
3. Chaotix (another game with about the same period reception as Heroes, but one which came out on a system nobody owned) was made by not Sonic Team
   
4. and 3D Blast (the only one even remotely comparable) was made by not Sonic Team.
   

is absurd. Mostly because Sega didn't really face anything in the way of truly negative perception towards the franchise until X-Treme was canceled and 3D Blast was released in its place. The public perception the series has that Sega has to fight is unlike anything the company has ever faced. Period. Edited July 30, 2009 by Tornado

[Blazey Firekitty]

Certain things do need to change in order for a once 2D series to work in 3D.

Take Mega Man Legends for example. It's an incredibly fun original game, but plays nothing like the 2D sidscrolling games. Of course Capcom won't make a 3rd because they're a bunch of fu---******************!

One thing I've noticed about Mario is that once it shifted to 3D, the focus shifted from constant action where you were trying to stay alive to a more relaxed, open-ended exploration formula.

Perhaps the same could work for Sonic, at least if the "speed" gimmick the series is known for could still be incorporated in a plausible fashion.

[Phos]

If you ask me, the opposite happened to Sonic - it went from a relatively relaxed game to one where it's a struggle to stay alive. If they had changed less, the games would have been better for it.

[Mike]

One thing I've noticed about Mario is that once it shifted to 3D, the focus shifted from constant action where you were trying to stay alive to a more relaxed, open-ended exploration formula.

Perhaps the same could work for Sonic, at least if the "speed" gimmick the series is known for could still be incorporated in a plausible fashion.

They should remove the ranking system. Knowing that thing is in the background eliminates exploration and forces you to go faster. Would feel kind of awkward at first. It's been there a very long time.

[Diogenes]

This. Times infinity. There's a reason an awful lot of people don't post in this forum anymore. It's because there are an army of 'modern Sonic apologists' that will blanket older Sonic fans who actually enjoyed the older games (and are unlikely to have played the new games) with snotty, holier-than-thou retorts such as "Oh, Mobius? Oh, ahuhuhuh, such backwards thinking... Now, where's my Latte?".

And then there's the army of nostalgia-blind old fans that are still whining about "Eggman", longer spines, and any character created after 1993. The sort of people who don't actually have ideas of their own, so all they do is bitch about new things and wish for the old things to come back.

Maybe 'classic fanboys' get ratted on so much by 'modern fanboys' because they actually have a point?

No, it's just because both sides are too blind to see past their own throbbing fanboy boners.

There's dumbshits on both sides. Hell, there's dumbshits on every side of everything ever. And as long as people keep seeing this as "us against them", they're just digging their own graves.

[Blazey Firekitty]

If you ask me, the opposite happened to Sonic - it went from a relatively relaxed game to one where it's a struggle to stay alive. If they had changed less, the games would have been better for it.

Perhaps this means Sonic should slow down somewhat, and focus on the idea of feeling fast instead of literal speed. The "racing game style" that seems to have originated in Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Advance 2 seems to cause the player a lot of fear either of slamming into an unseen enemy or falling into an unseen pit.

[BlazingTales]

This. Times infinity. There's a reason an awful lot of people don't post in this forum anymore. It's because there are an army of 'modern Sonic apologists' that will blanket older Sonic fans who actually enjoyed the older games (and are unlikely to have played the new games) with snotty, holier-than-thou retorts such as "Oh, Mobius? Oh, ahuhuhuh, such backwards thinking... Now, where's my Latte?".

Maybe 'classic fanboys' get ratted on so much by 'modern fanboys' because they actually have a point?

Now I don't think that's very fair. New fans* are just as much as a problem as the old*.

*Extremists

Some old fans don't except a lot of the change in the franchise. While others create opinions about how the games 'should be', and when it's not exactly how they want it, they rant about it. A great example of this is this guy. (no offence to the chap, his art is amazing, and for all I know he's great guy, but his rants annoy me to no end).

Some new fans lecture old fans like know-it-alls (i.e. your Mobius example), and pretend they know what's best for the franchise. Knowing that the big opinion is that Sonic has gone down hill, they come up with ways to fix it, most of the time the stupidest ideas to do so ("Jason Griffith is ruining Sonic!!"). A good example of this is... well look up 'sonic rants' on YouTube, and you'll get the point.

Personally, I'm somewhere in the middle. I love modern Sonic as much as Mr. Black Eyes. The classics have a lot of charm I repsect, while the new offer depth and innovation.

And then there's the army of nostalgia-blind old fans that are still whining about "Eggman", longer spines, and any character created after 1993. The sort of people who don't actually have ideas of their own, so all they do is whine about new things and wish for the old things to come back.

Agreed. To be honest, I'm a bit more intimidated by older than newer fans. I'm afraid to post some of my ideas for the 'next Sonic' out of fear it will be torn apart by saying 'NO! That's not what Sonic 2 played like!"...

That's not to say newer fans are nicer, if I say anything about classic Sonic universes, such as SatAM, some will say "That's not canon!" (while it isn't, it doesn't mean we can't pull from it). But that's easy to respond to. How do you respond to long-winded rants about how 'un-Sonic' it is to preform the HA when I include it in my ideas?

Edited July 30, 2009 by BlazingTales

[Tornado]

Perhaps this means Sonic should slow down somewhat, and focus on the idea of feeling fast instead of literal speed. The "racing game style" that seems to have originated in Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Advance 2 seems to cause the player a lot of fear either of slamming into an unseen enemy or falling into an unseen pit.

Just a small comment: While I hate, hate, HATE the shallow time trial crap that the series has become, I'm not sure if it is an objective problem or just my problem. However, the fear of slamming into obstacles is a byproduct of bad level design rather than an inherent problem with the gameplay. I'm not sure (I doubt it), but the "7 million mph" gameplay style might be better received if the level design wasn't so bad .

Edited July 30, 2009 by Tornado

[Blazey Firekitty]

Just a small comment: While I hate, hate, HATE the shallow time trial crap that the series has become, I'm not sure if it is an objective problem or just my problem. However, the fear of slamming into obstacles is a byproduct of bad level design rather than an inherent problem with the gameplay. I'm not sure (I doubt it), but the "7 million mph" gameplay style might be better received if the level design wasn't so bad .

That's a good point. Admittedly, I thought Sonic Rush Adventure handled the level design better than other "racing platformer" Sonic games I've played.

For me though, the problem with the racing/time trial style is not primarily on of difficulty, but of complexity. There doesn't see to be as much to do in the levels of the games that follow this style than in the games that were on the Mega Drive/Genesis. I feel that the main strength of the classic games was that they did not revolve so strongly around speed. Rather, speed was just a tool to get through more exploration based levels.

[Blacklightning]

Back then it was no-name developers (not really, of course, but you get my point) churning out the equivalent of mediocre licenced games to cash in on the success.

And the exact same thing isn't happening today? Only real difference is that Sonic Team themselves are adding to the pile.

as the games Blacklightning listed aren't bad enough (or weren't viewed as such at the time) games for the comparison to work.

I'd like to state for the record that those were just examples I brought up off the top of my head. There are a lot of others to choose from. I'll let you have the pleasure of choosing for yourself and disecting those at your leisure, if you so choose.

I'm not even going to bother responding to the rest. You're putting so many words in my mouth I logically should've choked to death two posts ago. The only point I ever made was that the Genny era isn't nearly the golden standard of perfection a lot of people make it out to be (even if a lot of things were better and more looked forward to back then) - only difference now is that they have four memorable games as opposed to 2-3 from Dreamcast and onward (arguable, naturally). There's nothing to indicate a second wind ain't possible (or arguably, third wind) - it's simply less likely by a small margin (yet again, arguable, depending on which side of the fandom you ask).

Every long-running franchise faces the same cycle sooner or later - it just so happens that Sonic's ones are longer.

EDIT: Or are they? Maybe it's just the illusion of it caused by releasing a game every six months. =\

Edited July 30, 2009 by Blacklightning