SEGA: "Sonic game quality will be fixed over time"

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You know, maybe older fans are so clingy to the older games because the Genesis games have a tried and true formula and considerable effort put into the games that the newer ones simply lack. If the new games never exceed beyond being just plain decent, of course they're going to shun it. For them, Sonic shouldn't be a game that can settle for second place.

The problem I was talking about wasn't a quality issue, though. A lot of the time it's regarding personal tastes, such as Green Hill over Apotos, the Classic Trio group being the only stars in the series (something which I repeatedly strike down, because the only true stars are Sonic and Eggman. All else are cannon fodder ), etc.

And don't get me started on the whole "Robotnik is Robotnik, NOT Eggman" bullshit.

When it comes to quality, that's a whole different story and that's where I tend to side with older fans. But a lot of cases aren't like that.

Why do some people continue to complain about classic fanboys as if they're part of the problem? If anything, it's not them, it would be Sega.

Why so easily offended Jake? I'll admit, that did come off as a bit one sided, but I didn't mean for it to be anything like that.

And I'm certainly sure that no one said that classic fanboys where a problem, just that a lot of them tend to be very narrow with what style they say Sonic "should be" instead of what he "could be", and some just don't have it in them to share their tastes with the tastes of the newer fans.

So long as new fans get a piece of what they want, they'll be happy. If they can have a good time with the werehog despite it's flaws, they won't have to much of a problem with much else that jumps at them, even if it's from the past.

But a lot of older fans never seem to be happy to split half of the cake. With some (read: not ALL) if it isn't 100% old-school in terms of EVERYTHING (not just the gameplay), there's something wrong.

You just want a current gen version of that secret Green Hill Zone from Sonic Adventure 2.

Uh, hell no. I want a Sonic game that can deliever a much better experience form both old AND new fronts.

This. Times infinity. There's a reason an awful lot of people don't post in this forum anymore. It's because there are an army of 'modern Sonic apologists' that will blanket older Sonic fans who actually enjoyed the older games (and are unlikely to have played the new games) with snotty, holier-than-thou retorts such as "Oh, Mobius? Oh, ahuhuhuh, such backwards thinking... Now, where's my Latte?".

Dread, you're doing you're own front any justice when you throw the fire back at those same "modern Sonic apologist". Especially when you spout this "We're right, you're not" sort of stuff like this:

Maybe 'classic fanboys' get ratted on so much by 'modern fanboys' because they actually have a point?

Which believe it or not, they don't. They really don't. And that's the kind of shit I would expect from Nicochi of all people.

Whatever "point" they may have, Classic fans are still on the same playing field as the modern fans. Only differences that set them apart from each other are that one side isn't so clingy of history and can easily move foward with ideas, yet still shares it's flaws of jumping over the cliff with more outrageous ideas, where as one side knows the series power yet wants to press the reset button and go back in time instead of puting their knowledge of things together with the ideas of the Modern fans to give the best of both worlds instead of just one.

Saying that one side is right over the other like that is only further spliting this fanbase apart, and may equally keep people away from this forum as much as anything else. And really, I hardly see any "modern Sonic apologist" who'll jump onto a classic fan for simply wanting their fair share without even ME jumping on them for that, and I come to this forum a lot.

Classic and Modern fans alike are making themselves more of a problem, nowadays. And I don't think either side realizes their own shortcomings.

Edited July 31, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SuperStingray]

I just think this article is no more than another example of SEGA's terrible PR. There's really no reason that improvement has to be gradual. As Phos said before, Portal was a great game fresh out of the box, and it was made by a group that was fresh out of school. I don't think the fanbase is exempt from blame for sending shallow, mixed messages, but Sonic Team can't seem to properly interpret them nor will SEGA give them a decent budget or deadline. If anything, the developers are misguided, stressed and inconsistent, but I doubt they're downright incompetent; they seem to have a vaguely right idea, but they just don't know what to do with it.

I'm not going to be one of those tools who thinks he can fix the franchise by making everything verbatim to what it was in the early 90s, but I will say that I think a great franchise is like a tree- firmly grounded in its roots, but still able to branch higher and further. Branch too far out, and it will lose its form and balance and ultimately collapse. Branch too little, and it will become overshadowed and wither. Sonic is clearly suffering from the former, so all I think he needs is a "trim" so to speak.

[Blazey Firekitty]

As far as the whole Eggman vs. Robotnik thing...I personally never prefered the name "Robotnik" because it sounded less silly to me. It was just that it sounded more like a name to me, and thus had more sentimental value.

I don't really feel like Robotnik's character in the games has changed that much from the classics to the modern games. If you ignore the cartoons and comics and just look at the games, he's always been cutesy and comical to some degree. The problem, as I see it, is not with how he's portrayed personality wise, but whether or not he gets brushed aside in favor of other villains. Unleashed didn't fully restore his dignity in that regard, but I feel like it at least came close.

[Rusty Spy]

They should remove the ranking system. Knowing that thing is in the background eliminates exploration and forces you to go faster. Would feel kind of awkward at first. It's been there a very long time.

Now how does a simple tally of your score at the end of the level that is only there for the purpose of displaying how many points you've collected in any way "eliminates exploration" and "forces players to go faster". You make it seem like it has some kind of mind control that makes players do as it comands it. It's just a silly little graphic on the screen.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Now how does a simple tally of your score at the end of the level that is only there for the purpose of displaying how many points you've collected in any way "eliminates exploration" and "forces players to go faster". You make it seem like it has some kind of mind control that makes players do as it comands it. It's just a silly little graphic on the screen.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind if they kept the ranking system, but changed the gameplay so that it was less about just getting to the end as fast as possible.

[Tornado]

And the exact same thing isn't happening today? Only real difference is that Sonic Team themselves are adding to the pile.

Is that not enough of a difference for you? I think it holds far more weight when the creators and shepherds of the franchise don't even know what the hell they are doing when compared to back when it was only the random cash-in developers who didn't have a clue. Nobody expects games like Sonic Shuffle to be any good, so its a surprise even if they are decent. But I'd assume people expect normal games in a traditionally quality series to be good, and when there are a multi-year string of crap ones that aren't because of some form of executive meddling, I'd say that is far more of a problem.

You are correct that all long series go through these troubles at some point, and I would agree that this is the second time this has happened. But I feel that this time the problems are far more serious than anything it has faced in the past.

[Blacklightning]

Is that not enough of a difference for you? I think it holds far more weight when the creators and shepherds of the franchise don't even know what the hell they are doing when compared to back when it was only the random cash-in developers who didn't have a clue.

Hey, let's be fair now. The low budgets and short development spans forced by Sega weren't helping matters at all. I really can't hate Sonic Team that much when they weren't really given a chance to work to their best (and I'm aware this might come off as hypocritical coming from someone who loathes ST with a passion), and now that they've proven they're at least competent given proper resources I can't say I can expect them to do any worse from now on out.

But I feel that this time the problems are far more serious than anything it has faced in the past.

I'll grant you that much. But like said, the only thing it really changes is probability - as long as it's still possible for the franchise to get its running legs back, I see no reason to doubt it until they prove me wrong. The fact that, according to the PR man here, they've already been working for a full year and still have 6-12 months to wait for a preview is a good sign though.

[Sean]

Why so easily offended Jake?

Tell me what gave it away that I was offended. I honestly don't care that much to be so!

Edited July 31, 2009 by Jake

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Tell me what gave it away that I was offended.

When you asked "Why do people treat Classic fans like they're the problem?". That sounds like someone who was offended to me when the ask something like that. And I wasn't trying to offend anyone when I said what I said.

Edited July 31, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Sean]

Asking a question/wondering out loud is a sign of being offended, huh/

I'll write that one down!

[Ember Aithne]

(Tone is hard to detect online. Don't take it personally.)

[Silencer226]

Agreed. The only reason our fanbase is as infamous as it is is because of those certain fans who're constantly complaining about every little thing.

I'm sorry "Ferno" but it goes deeper than the complaints... so much deeper than that, there are some fans out there who just aren't right in the head and make it know to the public. I don't believe a word from this guy, but then again we're no longer the target audience for these games at least I'm not, with their target being kids and you know kids couldn't give a shit about quality as long as it has Sonic on it they're good.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Asking a question/wondering out loud is a sign of being offended, huh/

No, it's just that when you tried to challenge what I said (which wasn't anything about anyone being a problem until Dread came in with what he said) I thought that was the case.

Hey, I'm not always right if I think someone is offended.

Also...

(Tone is hard to detect online. Don't take it personally.)

^What this guy said, too.

Edited July 31, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

The Sonic fan base is laughed at primarily for continuing to follow this series. Why would a non Sonic fan who thinks a game is bad think it silly for a Sonic fan to complain about that game?

And then there's the army of nostalgia-blind old fans that are still whining about "Eggman", longer spines, and any character created after 1993. The sort of people who don't actually have ideas of their own, so all they do is bitch about new things and wish for the old things to come back.

No, it's just because both sides are too blind to see past their own throbbing fanboy boners.

There's dumbshits on both sides. Hell, there's dumbshits on every side of everything ever. And as long as people keep seeing this as "us against them", they're just digging their own graves.

If dedicated old fans didn't have a point, that most of the new stuff sucks, would Sonic be in this situation? No, because that would require Sonic to still be a respected franchise. You have to understand, I used to think that the newer formula could be used to make a good game, but after really studying the differences, I decided that it really can't.

Also, "Eggman" has an awkward vowel structure for an English speaker.

[BlazingTales]

Not to back seat mod or anything, but I think this topic is turning into a flame war between old and new fans, let's get back on topic.

I'm not so sure if I trust the rep at SEGA (they have 'lied' a few times about things like Knuckles and Shadow being in Unleashed), however I am always grateful to have them reply to our questions. I'm super excited to hear they may be working on a new game... perhaps it will be annouced next gaming convetion?

[Sean]

In my initial post I was more bewildered than anything, and in my reply I was taken aback by how one could interpret my post as being overly defensive. And in my third post I was just screwing around.

And as for the article, they sure are taking a long time to fix Sonic if that's what they're aiming at.

[Phos]

On one hand it seems like a flame war, but on the other, it also kind of seems to be some things that I think need to be said.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If dedicated old fans didn't have a point, that most of the new stuff sucks, would Sonic be in this situation? No, because that would require Sonic to still be a respected franchise.

Depends on what you mean by the new stuff. If it's for the gameplay, even that's arguable depending on the game. However, if it's the style, things such as the settings, story, cast, and music, that's really personal taste and nothing more.

Some could argue that the older stuff would've gone stale had it made it to this point and resulted in a whole different mess, but we really wouldn't know that now would we?

You have to understand, I used to think that the newer formula could be used to make a good game, but after really studying the differences, I decided that it really can't.

And you have to understand that you're not the only person here, nor do you, I, Dreadknux, Diogenes, nor anyone else call all of the shots for what a Sonic game should be, and the formula that would work.

There's tons of ways to design a game, and some can be bad ways just as there are good ones. But it takes a lot of time and effort to make a good formula, even for one such as Sonic. Simply saying that the newer formula doesn't work may be what you think, but someone else may see something else to it.

Also, "Eggman" has an awkward vowel structure for an English speaker.

Oh cut the crap, will ya? NO ONE cares, it's still the same character.

Edited July 31, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tornado]

Simply saying that the newer formula doesn't work may be what you think, but someone else may see something else to it.

Let advocate for some devils: I would hazard a guess that it isn't too far from the truth that the majority don't think it works. As to what actually needs to be done, you'll never get a straight answer; but its a fallacy to say that the two contrasting ideologies are equally incorrect from the start when one of them gets popular support from the outside, and the other gets ridiculed from the outside. One of them must be more "right" when that is what is happening.

[BlazingTales]

^^^ But there is more than two formulas going on. There's pinball physics, hill physics, speed physics... Talking Sonic, silent Sonic, simple phrase Sonic, Jason Sonic, Ryan Sonic... More characters Sonic, no characters Sonic, Classic characters Sonic, some characters Sonic... and the list goes on. It's not black and white people. Sonic has shades of grey (or blue ^.^; )

And as for the article, they sure are taking a long time to fix Sonic if that's what they're aiming at.

Yeah, they said several months they have worked on it. That's terrific considering S06 was made in like a year or so.

Edited July 31, 2009 by BlazingTales

[Tornado]

^^^ But there is more than two formulas going on.

That's why I said you'll never get a straight answer as to what needs to be done.

[BlazingTales]

Yeah, you just went on to say there are two big ideologies, while there are much more than that. There is 'middle ground' between this. You don't just have to like old games or new. We can enjoy both, and try to compromise. Not like it's any use though, we have no authorty when it comes to making Sonic.

Anyway...

Edited July 31, 2009 by BlazingTales

[Sean]

Nahhhhh, compromise is overrated.

There's nothing external that's stopping me from enjoying new games - I wouldn't hold SRA in such a high (and I mean very high) regard if there was. Sega just needs to make better games. ~

Edited July 31, 2009 by Jake

[blackherox]

The Sonic fan base is laughed at primarily for continuing to follow this series. Why would a non Sonic fan who thinks a game is bad think it silly for a Sonic fan to complain about that game?

Call me oblivious but I'd like to know were all these events take place. Or if its just a case of people actually being bothered about a little negativity. Granted, so long as a series sells surely its logical for there to be some sort of following to it?

I don't believe a word from this guy, but then again we're no longer the target audience for these games at least I'm not, with their target being kids and you know kids couldn't give a shit about quality as long as it has Sonic on it they're good.

Kids are smarter than you think The main difference is that a Kids aim is to more or less finish the game, it may not be off high quality but so long as its playable appeals to them and then can finish playing it (and have fun) its fine. As you grow older, one becomes more analytical, looking at much more aspects of the game, such as the mechanics, graphic, replayability etc. Its why for games played as a child there will always be certian biases, whether retro games or new school.

[BlazingTales]

Nahhhhh, compromise is overrated.

There's nothing external that's stopping me from enjoying the new games - I wouldn't hold SRA in such a high (and I mean very high) regard if there was. Sega just needs to make better games. ~

Totally agree and very well put. As long as it's fun, playable, and has a fast blue hedgehog in it then I'll love the game. All this 'not-Sonic' stuff is overrated. Mario Galaxy isn't 'Mario' with all it's weird gravity and space stuff, but is it well made? Yes. Is it fun? Yes. (IMO) Come to think of it, this whole arguement sounds silly. Put simply 'SEGA justs needs to make better games."

And let's leave it at that.