SEGA: "Sonic game quality will be fixed over time"

[Phos]

Using two buttons is a small price to pay, especially considerig the only reason Naka wanted Sonic to use one button was because Mario used two buttons. Mario now uses three buttons, if you want to stick to that metric.

[Rusty Spy]

I'll not claim that "Unleashed < Its Recent Predecessors", because I at least liked the day stages... but the plot is a bit of a joke, imo. There's multiple ancient civilizations sat there on the shelf in canonical history already (echidnas, babylonians, Black Arms), but no, lets invoke a completly new and redundant one for Gaia Temples as though we've got amnesia! Tails tore through hordes of electric death-bots armed only with his teeth during the Death Egg saga, but no, let's have him run like a sissy from five Gaia monsters! Eggman's a polymath who deciphers ancient languages for breakfast circa Chaos' tablets in Adventure 1, but no, let's introduce a redundant cucumber-fetishist to pad out the character rosta! The Chaos Emeralds fixed themselves quite happily from grey-out between Adventure 1 and Adventure 2, but no, lets wrap an entire plot around the quest to recharge them!

1) Death Robots and ancient manifestations of the very darkness of the Earth itself are two different things we're talking about here.

2) In SA1, the Chaos Emeralds were revived through the combined positive energy of nearly the entire population of Station Square, in Dues Ex Machina fashion no less.

Using two buttons is a small price to pay, especially considerig the only reason Naka wanted Sonic to use one button was because Mario used two buttons. Mario now uses three buttons, if you want to stick to that metric.

As I said previously:

Being minimalistic isn't always the same as being simplistic, which I think can be achieved without having to strip the game down to it's most fundementally basic.

[ArtFenix]

while the point of 06 seemed to be "Let's be Square Enix

In terms of CG production that was a great idea! But yeah, the plot was messed up a bit..

Frozen Nitrogen , agreed with everything you said about unleashed.

Edited July 31, 2009 by ArtFenix

[Dreadknux]

Can I just say, for people calling me out (however subtly, you know who you are) for being "one of them" "classic fanboys", I'll just remind you that:

• Sonic Adventure is one of my favourite games
  
• I actually created the term 'classic fanboy'
  

Thanks for being ignorant when I'm simply trying to be devil's advocate though. Appreciated. The truth is, in at least this forum, there are, today, more modern game apologists than there are classic fans. Of course, both are thinking in a rather backwards fashion - I firmly believe that a combination of what made the 2D games great (S3&K) and what made the 3D games great (Sonic Adventure 1) is key to moving the series forward.

But of course the big defence by most is that everyone has their own opinion on 'how to fix Sonic'. That doesn't make anyone's argument any more legit, because most people's opinions on these things are full of shit in the first place.

And any reputable gaming community/blog (I said reputable, not GFAQs ) has only one opinion of modern Sonic games - a negative one. And to say that objective reviews slamming the Sonic games - by reviewers who aren't emotionally invested in the Sonic series and thus can write a review without being biased - are conspiracies or something only makes the fanbase look even more stupid.

Which was my point regarding "apologists" in my initial post.

Anyway, back on topic please? Thoughts on what this guy's talking about?

[Frozen Nitrogen]

And any reputable gaming community/blog (I said reputable, not GFAQs ) has only one opinion of modern Sonic games - a negative one. And to say that objective reviews slamming the Sonic games - by reviewers who aren't emotionally invested in the Sonic series and thus can write a review without being biased - are conspiracies or something only makes the fanbase look even more stupid.

"Objective review" : oxymoron? Someone expressing the degree of personal enjoyment they had with a game is ipso facto subjective, etc?

2) In SA1, the Chaos Emeralds were revived through the combined positive energy of nearly the entire population of Station Square, in Dues Ex Machina fashion no less.

Ah, hell. Fine, I'll withdraw that one with appropriate contrition. It is a LONG time since I played Adventure. :S

Tails still gets nerfed to a plot-breaking extent, though. You can't claim that Gaia monsters are scarier than:

OMG ROBOTNIK WILL KILL US ALL!!

[Dreadknux]

"Objective review" : oxymoron? Someone expressing the degree of personal enjoyment they had with a game is ipso facto subjective, etc?

Yes! Good call. I do get the two mixed up at times. >_>* Thanks.

[Sega DogTagz]

Tails still gets nerfed to a plot-breaking extent, though. You can't claim that Gaia monsters are scarier than:

OMG ROBOTNIK WILL KILL US ALL!!

While I too was really put off by how quickly Tails was to run and hide in Unleashed, your assessment on this part is a little off. Tails has no reason to fear any of Eggman contraptions, seeing as how he works with metals and tools for a living. He knows what machines are capable of.

He probably has never seen anything like the embodiment of Darkness/Evil that those monsters represented. Even in the whacked out world they live in.

[Rusty Spy]

Tails still gets nerfed to a plot-breaking extent, though. You can't claim that Gaia monsters are scarier than:

OMG ROBOTNIK WILL KILL US ALL!!

What Sega DogTagz said, and the fact that he can go down by just whacking his fingers a few times....

[Frozen Nitrogen]

While I too was really put off by how quickly Tails was to run and hide in Unleashed, your assessment on this part is a little off. Tails has no reason to fear any of Eggman contraptions, seeing as how he works with metals and tools for a living. He knows what machines are capable of.

Well... exactly.

He knows full well that Robotnik's machines are soulless killing machines, capable of simultaneously filling him full of hot lead and sending a drill-bit right through his heart and plasma-combusting his fur with energy weapons and electrocuting his skeleton right out of his body.

And burning down the entire Zone around him and ingesting his animal friends.

...

And going "beep boop beep boop".

Well, fair enough; what Tails should be most scared of isn't exactly objectively demonstrable. =P

And besides, we all know he hates plain ol' natural lightning the most, anyway.

[FeathersMcGraw]

He probably has never seen anything like the embodiment of Darkness/Evil that those monsters represented. Even in the whacked out world they live in.

Except Killer aliens, two other ancient embodiments of darkness and everything else he's faced in the games.

Look at the development he had in SA1 about not being scared of things and fending for himself, it's completely out of character for him to be scared of a few monsters (that are rather silly looking and significantly less threatening than what he's been known to face in the past.) considering everything he's gone through.

Edited July 31, 2009 by FeathersMcGraw

[Toby]

I figured, since it was night, that negative emotions had taken over Tails at the moment, as it did several other characters in the game, which is why he acted so terrified.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I figured, since it was night, that negative emotions had taken over Tails at the moment, as it did several other characters in the game, which is why he acted so terrified.

Now THAT is a reasonable and believable explanation which serves to make me not hate that scene so much any more.

Good show, sir.

[Ember Aithne]

I figured, since it was night, that negative emotions had taken over Tails at the moment, as it did several other characters in the game, which is why he acted so terrified.

Plus, one of them had a huge club. Maybe Tails mistook it for an angry Amy.

[Rusty Spy]

Except Killer aliens, two other ancient embodiments of darkness and everything else he's faced in the games.

All those other times, he was assisting someone else who was doing all the killing.

Well... exactly.

He knows full well that Robotnik's machines are soulless killing machines, capable of simultaneously filling him full of hot lead and sending a drill-bit right through his heart and plasma-combusting his fur with energy weapons and electrocuting his skeleton right out of his body.

And burning down the entire Zone around him and ingesting his animal friends.

...

And going "beep boop beep boop".

Well, fair enough; what Tails should be most scared of isn't exactly objectively demonstrable. =P

And besides, we all know he hates plain ol' natural lightning the most, anyway.

Except they do little but just shoot at him slowly and stand there. Not that much of a threat. And I'd like it if you pointed out one robot that was capable of doing all that stuff to him.

[Badnik Zero]

And to say that objective reviews slamming the Sonic games - by reviewers who aren't emotionally invested in the Sonic series and thus can write a review without being biased - are conspiracies or something only makes the fanbase look even more stupid.

Well, not just Sonic. I think lots of series get preferential treatment by reviewers.

I mentioned Heroes' score because it was both a high score and Sonic's first multi-platform game. Looking at the very positive reception this game got, it's almost like some reviewers didn't know how to give a bad rating to Sonic the Hedgehog.

Then with a game like Unleashed, which I would say is more polished than anything in years, people are too comfortable with saying that Sonic sucks. It's like people were judging that game on the merits of the Werehog alone.

I think this comes back to the quality issue, because Sonic's rep has taken a huge hit since the Dreamcast. And that might be just as hard to repair as quality. If we do see this quality game, I don't think anyone will even be able to agree if it's really good or bad.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Badnikz

[Blazey Firekitty]

In my mind, at least, it makes sense for Tails to be used to robots by Unleashed, but more frightened at creatures which are basically demonic.

Especially since he's a scientist/engineer. Robots are easy for his rational mind to comprehend, but not random glowing abominations that come out of nowhere.

[Flyboy Fox]

It did bug me at first too that he was so scared, but... he was all by himself and it was dark and they were pretty freaky-looking. He was probably more startled and confused than anything. At that point he didn't really know what was going on.

Although I kinda lol'd that he was so scared by the monsters, but then he was just all "That's a new look for you!" at Sonic when he arrived. Guess he's just not phased by ANYTHING that happens to Sonic anymore XD;

[Blazey Firekitty]

Although I kinda lol'd that he was so scared by the monsters, but then he was just all "That's a new look for you!" at Sonic when he arrived. Guess he's just not phased by ANYTHING that happens to Sonic anymore XD;

Heh, I think both Tails and Amy have been around Sonic long enough that they are used to what ever trouble he gets into. Amy didn't recognized him, but she wasn't scared by him either, oddly enough.XD

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Wow, this topic got 2 extra pages while I was out. Anyway...

They're more representative.

Of who? They don't represent the fanbase as much as any other medium, if that's what you're refering to.

Go re-read what that was responding to and think about it for a moment.

Rock music.

Character.

Story setting.

What's so hard to think about? That stuff is personal taste.

If it was Gameplay that would be another story, and I can't say very many folks outside the fanbase actually know any more or less than we do inside.

This is very simple: There have been many bad games not based on the classic formula but none that are.

There were only two bad games not based on the classic formula, Shadow and Sonic 06. Every other game was much better recieved, although while they could still use a lot of work they're not general bad games.

Are you basing this of Gamefaqs?

Uh, no? How was Gamefaqs the first thing to come to mind when I wasn't even being that specific?

It was basing that on just about any site that knows about Sonic, but not so much into it to so much as we are.

Sites like Destructiod and Screw Attack that do very few reviews tend to attract less fanboys because they focus more on their own community, Destructiod especially for making fun of Fanboys on a daily basis.

I wasn't even talking about fanboys here, so drop that please.

Thanks for being ignorant when I'm simply trying to be devil's advocate though. Appreciated.

Hey, it's not that simple to tell whether someone is playing Devil's Advocate or really meaning what they said. You didn't sound like you were trying to be devil's advocate than you did being "one of them", so that only made you more a dartboard than anything else.

You can't blame us for not being able to tell. You've said similar in the past.

Give a hint next time or something.

EDIT: Okay, I won't derail this further. I got here a bit late before realizing where we were now.

Edited July 31, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Greg the Fancat]

Oh, so SEGA does appreciate us.... SEGA of America that is. If I heard correctly that the Japan division made Werehog, then please.... Realize that we Americans want someone to fricking listen to our dang good ideas.

Why don't they try to create a game that both kids and older Sonic fans can equally enjoy?

I've been saying this for a few years now.

What is so hard to make Sonic likable to little kids? We have to add all these gimmicks in for them to like the games? Even then, what is Sonic-y about the gameplay of Werehog? Heck, he's slower than Ristar, the very gameplay he was based off of.

First off (about lycanthropes): I thought they had amazing agility? If so, then why isn't Werehog scaling tall buildings with lightning fast speed? Why isn't he using those long arms of his to swing from poles everywhere? And most importantly.... Why doesn't he defeat enemies with ease? Why isn't he kicking but with that grand ole' smile on his face? Why isn't he... well.... full of attitude?

Second off: Where did SEGA get the idea to do yet another faceless evil monster? Really. And why hasn't Ivo grown smart enough to build a mind control device in which he himself can control the beast? From what used to seemingly be a different storyline every game now feels played out. There is NOTHING new in Sonic games anymore. He's grown as usual as Mario. Except Mario sticks to his own style and stays consistent with his famous platforming. God.... Can SEGA learn to use any of the Archie villains? At least they could use those guys again and again.

Thirdly: Why can't we have a Difficulty System already? Do we really have to pay the expense of entertaining children that we should suffer challengeless gameplay? There is something that made sure all ages and skilled people could learn to love their games and that was a difficulty system. For children, we could've had the "Training Hero" mode whilst normal players would get the "Sidekick Mode" and hardcore would get "The Blue Dude with a 'Tude". I mean, why sacrifice good gaming for hardcores by not including this option and building a harder game for veteran Sonic fans?

Fourthly: Get new script writers. Heck, hire Ian Flynn. If anything, I don't see the need for a plot if it is shallow and has hardly any if at all any depth. I mean, Chip and Sonic's cutscenes were adorable, but the real shine was with Ivo. He was incredible although he was still quite watered down.

Fifthly: Stay consistent.

Have a good read through. This makes more sense than what SEGA of Japan's been doing recently. Why spare challenge? Why spare depth for the veterans? Give me something TRULY new.

[batson]

Oh, so SEGA does appreciate us.... SEGA of America that is. If I heard correctly that the Japan division made Werehog, then please.... Realize that we Americans want someone to fricking listen to our dang good ideas.

Pfft, no way, Sega should listen to us Europeans, since if you Americans would have your way you would probably just rename everything in the games after books in the bible. "Sega Genesis" my ass!

(PS. Dont flame, im not being completely serious, lol )

[Mike]

Oh, so SEGA does appreciate us.... SEGA of America that is.

*cough*shadowthehedgehog*cough*

Sorry, I have a cold.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Mike

[Greg the Fancat]

*cough*shadowthehedgehog*cough*

Sorry, I have a cold.

Oh... Well.... Yeah. Hmm....

Yeah.... I will admit, SoE should probably have control of Sonic... Just not sure about this franchise anymore. All I really want is a quality game, dudes.

[JaidynReiman]

Oh, so SEGA does appreciate us.... SEGA of America that is. If I heard correctly that the Japan division made Werehog, then please.... Realize that we Americans want someone to fricking listen to our dang good ideas.

Huh? If I heard correctly, it was more specifically Hashimoto who was responsible for the Werehog. At least two divisions (Sega America, and I thought Sega Japan... I supposed I -might- be mistaken) told him not to include the Werehog, but he did it anyway (and he was the primary one responsible for it). I heard that in the topic talking about Hashimoto leaving Sega. He may have done some good things with Unleashed, but it doesn't mean he isn't at fault for the bad things, either.

[Joseppi]

Honestly, judging by what Mr. Ratcliffe was saying, it sounds like he doesn't really care what the older Sonic fans want. He seems more concerned about kids. What he doesn't realize, when most of us became fans, we WERE KIDS ourselves. But it would be hard since today's kids aren't the best judges of good games. As long as it has nice graphics, they like it. That's why most of the games you see nowadays are pretty to look at but not much fun to play. I really don't care how a game looks as long as it's fun. Graphics are just icing on the cake for me. (That's not a good analogy for me since I prefer cake without icing.)

But I do have faith that Sonic games will once again return to greatness eventually. I've been a Sonic fan for 16 years, and I always will be.