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Why is Cheese so OP?


MetalSkulkBane

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Here's something that bugs me for a while: Why Cheese is so darn powerful?

Chaos are weak as babies, running to fast next to them can hurt them, they can't swim and get tired during races.

Cheese on the other hand? Anyone who played Sonic Advance 2 knows how broken he is, breaking huge machines and always flying fast enough to keep up with Cream. But even if we assume that this is gameplay, that story wise he's closer to Archie, he is till being used as a weapon. Also he has power of infinite flight, even under friccking water. I know that in every game she fights (Advance 2, Chronicles, Battles, Heroes) Cream has someone helping her, so maybe she didn't accomplished that much, but no one will say that she never throw her chao at badnik and made it explode.

I used to have a theory that Cheese is reincarnation of water god Chaos. After all, in Sonic Adventure DX, Cream has few cameos but Cheese is nowhere to be seen. Sadly Sonic Battles completely threw that idea out the window. (Then again, we never see them in one room. Maybe Cheese has double life, Perry the Platypus style.)

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Cheese is actually one of the Immortal Chao, a group of seven very powerful Chao that were responsible for creating the Chaos Emeralds before time. Six of them were sealed away millions of years ago, but Cheese, the strongest of the group, somehow survived. Since then, Cheese has been watching over the world, waiting for the Chosen Savior of the Immortal Chao to appear. When the Chosen Savior -- Cream -- was born, Cheese appeared before her and became her friend. Now Cheese is secretly molding Cream to be the ultimate warrior capable of rescuing the Immortal Chao from their imprisonment, thus ushering in a new age of peace and prosperity.

...yeah i dunno

Okay, in all seriousness, I think Cream is just really good at raising Chao. Maybe they wanted Cream to be the "easy mode" of Advance 2?

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1 hour ago, Mister X said:

Okay, in all seriousness, I think Cream is just really good at raising Chao. Maybe they wanted Cream to be the "easy mode" of Advance 2?

This pretty much sums up a believable lore explaination and the most likely technical explaination.

 

Really this is most definitely informed by gameplay rather than anything story/world related.  Chao Garden gameplay and Sonic Advance 2 gameplay work on entirely different rulesets.  You'll be giving yourself a headache by trying to explain the inconsistencies.  I mean it's strange enough that Cream, a 6-year old, can run so fast and spin attack badniks in Sonic Advance 2 when it's implied to be her first ever adventure, and she persues Sonic through sheer willpower to rescue her mom from Dr. Eggman.

Really it can just be chalked up to the basic fact that the main cast of Sonic, Cheese included, are superheroes with abilities that exceed those of the general populace around them for no real reason other than that it makes for a fun game.

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1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I know that in every game she fights (Advance 2, Chronicles, Battles, Heroes) Cream has someone helping her

I'm sorry but why is Advance 2 in there? I can understand the other games in there but Advance 2? Aside from needing to be rescued from Eggman, Cream didn't have anyone's help throughout that game. She tried to enlist Sonic's help in rescuing her mother but he ran off before she could remotely tell him, forcing Cream to go off to rescue her mother alone. Advance 2 was pretty much Cream's first (and so far only) solo adventure. And before anyone corrects me by stating Cheese's presence doesn't make Advance 2 a solo adventure for Cream, I consider Cream & Cheese together as a singular character; Cheese is merely an extension of Cream herself. Whenever I speak of Cream, I'm also referring to Cheese because they are essentially one character (that and it would be very annoying to type "Cream and Cheese" every single time).

Now onto the actual topic: Meta-wise, the reason Cheese is OP is because Cream is a "beginners character". Pains me to say it but Cream was made to be the "easy mode" for the series so those who have never played a Sonic game before (such as younger kids, whom Cream was arguably made to appeal to) can get used to the gameplay. Cream's flight, while weaker than Tails', allows players to skip most platforming based obstacles and Cheese helps deal with enemies/bosses. Cheese was also apparently created to "preserve" Cream's innocent image, giving her the ability to attack without needing to attack herself (stated by Yuji Naka himself in an interview. I'm afraid I forgot the source though so if anyone has it could they please link it?), though I personally find that reasoning to be bull since Cream herself can still attack. If they really wanted to portray Cream as a strict pacifist way back then, they should've made it so her jumps and rolls don't harm enemies, you HAVE to use Cheese to damage them (come to think of it that would be an interesting variation of gameplay, essentially making Cream a ranged Amy with a more limited ability to fly). But even then wouldn't sicking your pet onto others be considered an "attack", even if the person isn't really carrying it out personally?

Lore-wise... Well, it's never been officially explained. Of course, how many things in this franchise ARE officially explained? Though I like to headcanon that the reason Cheese is so powerful, lore-wise, is that he comes from a Chao Garden that raises inherently powerful Chao and/or he was exceptionally raised by Cream, gaining uber stats as a result.

By the way, I love that topic you made Blacklighting! Very hilarious lol

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he's not op

 

an op chao is a couple of the chaos i have in my sonic adventure 1 and 2 save files on my gamecube memory cards with 9999 stats

 

also because comic relief

wonders why no one has said anything about that stupid crap that happened at the end of the sonic battle part of sonic X....

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Cheese is the most powerful Sonic character and I do not know why. I not sure how he became this way unless that Cream knows secret training for chao. Maybe she trained Cheese herself and that Cream actually has hidden potential that nobody knows about than.

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17 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

the canon of Battle is debatable at best, 

Unless Sega publishes a list of games that're considered canonical, any game is fair game if you can argue it, really.

I mean, technically, something like Sonic operates on an open canon, where the logic of the most recent installment is the priority. This is how most canons work: in Christianity, the New Testament's logic surpasses Old Testament logic even if Jewish scholars would argue the NT misinterprets. If you're a Mormon, obviously you care about what the Book of Mormon says a little more than the Old and New Testaments. Etc. And that's ignoring both the different canons that exist today within the same faiths and the works created before our modern canons were even composed.

And of course, the very concept of retroactive continuity in comic books was born out of the historical precedence of composing a canonicity: if something more recent says something different from what you knew before, unless we say otherwise, that's the canonical fact. The Star Wars Holocron was created to decipher canonicity of prior books and comics in the context of the then new Phantom Menace. Stuff like plot holes, nebulous timeline placement, etc...are pretty irrelevant, honestly, unless it's the priority of the one making the canon (and since canon is always more about interpretation than mythology the grand majority of the time, that stuff usually doesn't really matter...though it more or less did for Star Wars!).

So if Battle makes sense in terms of...well, what's the current game? Runners? The Rio Olympics? Then I think it'd be pretty valid. If not, well, then discard it. If it's nebulous then, well...there's nothing really wrong with going either way on it.

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23 hours ago, JezMM said:

 I mean it's strange enough that Cream, a 6-year old, can run so fast and spin attack badniks in Sonic Advance 2 .

 

23 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

Suspension of disbelief plays a part too, because other characters get away with this shit all the time. It's one thing to believe Knux can floor any given bot in a single punch - to convince the audience that Tails's tails, soft, fluffy, sensitive things that they are, can do exactly the same thing is quite a feat

 

Here my answer is "inner logic". Tails could kill robots with tail since Sonic 2. It's how this word works. Chao weren't shown to be all powerful, in fact we clearly seen army of echidnas ran through them, and those chao nearly died because of it (I think...it's clear they were damaged).

22 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

I'm sorry but why is Advance 2 in there?

Because I'm assuming that Eggman wasn't beaten five times by each playable character. So either 1 Sonic is the hero and he did all the work (which is unlikely, cut scenes suggest otherwise)  2 Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Cream worked together through most of the game 3 Each of them went through some part of the game. So I'm sure that Cream did some fighting (it was her first adventure after all), but how much isn't clear.

The only clear fight she won was in Sonic X against Emerl. Impressive win, but she never though again in other episodes (as far as I remember anyway, I might be wrong).

20 hours ago, Detective Reptiles said:

When was the last time we saw Cheese be that powerful? It seems to show up just when Cream is playable for the sake of giving her a unique point. Outside of that, he seems pretty weak.

He's powerful for a chao. Maybe I'm missing something, but do you know single other chao that fights robots? Archie comic had few fighter (Crusher from Meropia, Chuckles from 174), but they absorbed strength from warriors (Razor, Knuckles). And if we assume that Cream canonically took even one boss from Advance 2, then Cheese clearly outmatches them.

 

But overall "Cream's took great care of him" seems like a most logical explanation. Taking care of chao makes it stronger, so if anyone could nurse chao into a weapon, it's Cream.

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17 hours ago, FireBird75 said:

The answer is so simple guys.

0736685bbbd7e27892878aeb390be941

Cheese is a level 100 chao!  As in he (she?/it?/whatever) has broken the threshold and achieved the triple digit mark in every stat.

you can't have 4 digits in every stat for your chaos, and the levels of each stat can't go past 99

unless you're like me and you glitched it so it did anyway

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On 06/05/2016 at 8:39 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Here's something that bugs me for a while: Why Cheese is so darn powerful?

Chaos are weak as babies, running to fast next to them can hurt them, they can't swim and get tired during races.

Cheese on the other hand? Anyone who played Sonic Advance 2 knows how broken he is, breaking huge machines and always flying fast enough to keep up with Cream. But even if we assume that this is gameplay, that story wise he's closer to Archie, he is till being used as a weapon. Also he has power of infinite flight, even under friccking water. I know that in every game she fights (Advance 2, Chronicles, Battles, Heroes) Cream has someone helping her, so maybe she didn't accomplished that much, but no one will say that she never throw her chao at badnik and made it explode.

I used to have a theory that Cheese is reincarnation of water god Chaos. After all, in Sonic Adventure DX, Cream has few cameos but Cheese is nowhere to be seen. Sadly Sonic Battles completely threw that idea out the window. (Then again, we never see them in one room. Maybe Cheese has double life, Perry the Platypus style.)

For the same reason a hedgehog can run super fast and destroy super hard, metallic stuff by jumping on it. Without breaking his spine.

It's a game, man. Characters do absurd things and impossible things happen. Maybe during the phase of testing, the developers found out it was impossible to finish certain levels without extra help from Cheese. Or maybe they gave Cheese all those abilities for a laugh. Or it was laziness of their part and they didn't want to calibrate Cheese's abilities to suit the gameplay and avoid him being all-powerful or completely useless. Take your pick. 

 

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I always saw Cream and Cheese like Ash and Pikachu. Know how both evolve and Ash had the opportunity to evolve Pikachu but didn't, and just made him keep getting stronger and stronger? Cheese probably does the same thing. 

 

And considering how Chao never age physically, there's no telling how old it is. It could have belonged to Vanilla and got passed down to Cream which would explain its high level and just has an abnormally powerful life source. 

 

Either er way Cheese is still a beast. Too op. 

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12 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Here my answer is "inner logic". Tails could kill robots with tail since Sonic 2. It's how this word works. Chao weren't shown to be all powerful, in fact we clearly seen army of echidnas ran through them, and those chao nearly died because of it (I think...it's clear they were damaged).

Are we to assume, then, that all echidnas are wimps because Tikal was flattened with them? No, of course not - that would be silly.

The mistake you're making here is assuming that all members of a species are born and raised equal. Sonic would outwardly seem to lend the impression that all hedgehogs are fast, but most of the time he's actually the exception rather than the rule - Amy and Silver are shown to be relatively slow by comparison, and what speed Shadow has is derived from his jet boots and Chaos Control rather than any natural gift for running. It's not too hard to believe that outliers can exist even for Chao of all things with that in mind, especially when it would become a barrier to gameplay any other way. That's to say nothing of Chaos himself, who was implied to be a Chao at some point despite his looks.

It's also important to note that Chao in SA1 and 2 were specifically raised as pets, not fighting companions. Sure, they could punch each other up in the latter, but they were never expected to leave home and keep pace with their owners every step of the way, and that kind of regimen alone is sure to affect how anyone develops, let alone an impressionable Chao.

22 hours ago, Singapore Sling said:

Unless Sega publishes a list of games that're considered canonical, any game is fair game if you can argue it, really.

Well sure, if you say so, but when a game claims Sonic can heal himself with the power of being fast it becomes a little difficult to put any stock into Battle's writing when it suggests going back on the ending SA1 set up in order to establish some cheap fanservice.

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3 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

Well sure, if you say so, but when a game claims Sonic can heal himself with the power of being fast it becomes a little difficult to put any stock into Battle's writing when it suggests going back on the ending SA1 set up in order to establish some cheap fanservice.

And said validity of that is debatable, not factual, one way or another.

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I always thought Cheese was powerful only because he was paired with Cream. Cream just may be a great Chao raiser, but there is also that she has a very close bond with him. She seem to consider him as her family rather than a pet, and Cheese may also consider her as someone more than an owner. Maybe their relationship is reflected in their teamwork?

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Simply because gameplay ≠ lore (and maybe a bit because of the "cartoony" part of the Sonic franchise ? I dunno). You can't explain how is a character only by judging it's gameplay. It's like Cream being able to fly with Amy and Big. Or in SA2, when you play with Tails and that he can the pulley and lift the Cyclone. Or when Sonic can't catch up with Eggman in some cutscene of the classics... All that don't mean that Cheese is OP, that Cream have a surhuman strenght (neither Tails) or that Eggman is faster than Sonic.

Sonic isn't the kind of franchise that is designed to have a "realistic" (even in term of inner logic) gameplay. Sometimes some element of the gameplay are done to be integrated to the scenario (the countdown in Green Forest, for instance), but often the gameplay and the story/the characterisation are separated. It's like in some RPG, when you strike three time the ennemy with you sword, invoke a big deity to crush him, and they have still many HP, and after that, in a cutscene, they're killed by a single blow. 

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