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Crisis City in Sonic Generations


AIBOUU

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8 hours ago, AIBOUU said:

A few weeks ago I finally put my hands on Sonic Generations (which isn't so easy here in Poland) I had so much fun with this game, yet the CC level existence is bothering me. I mean how is this possible to Time Eater to find an non existing timeline ? Sonic 06 never happend so CC was never a thing. I think do realize that not including such a game as 06 in 20 sonic anniversary would be strange (after all it's resembling-like it or not- Sonic next gen), yet it feels like people doing SG plot didn't do any research on that. They just put CC in the game without any deeper thought on it. 

And what do you think ? If I missed something just let me know. (Also sorry for weak english, I hope everyone was able to understand me.)

1 Witam na forum, miło widzieć inne twarze z nad Wisły

2 You couldn't get Generations? What about Steam? We have Steam in Poland.

3 Simple: Time Eater can do that.

"But Skulk, that's impossible"

Talking blue hedgehogs are impossible, yet there's Sonic. Simple Time Eater is creature that can move through time, even to timelines that could have been (fight with Metal) or no longer are (06). That's all there is to it. (As far as we know, Maybe we'll get other answer one day, but I seriously doubt it.

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Oh come on, "oh my head", "this is so confusing", etc? Come on, most times I see people complain time travel plots are too complex to get it comes across as lazyness by the complainer than anything else.

Sonic 06 happens.

Sonic 06 erases itself. We see as the very last scene that events have returned, temporally, to the beginning of the game- the night of the festival.

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that night of the festival only occurs since all the other events, in the now "erased" timeline, did. Time Eater's whole shtick is basically that it obeys no rule of time travel, no limitation. So even though the timeline has been discarded, it just goes and connects to it regardless. What's there to be confused about? If you want to whine about time travel in Sonic and making no sense, then consider how to explain Sonic CD and from what points were the classic characters extracted from in Generations.

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3 hours ago, Mister X said:

Generations 2 should just be nothing but '06 stages.

And all of the cutscenes are just the Time Eater and Elise living in an apartment together in the big city learning about life and love.

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42 minutes ago, Singapore Sling said:

And all of the cutscenes are just the Time Eater and Elise living in an apartment together in the big city learning about life and love.

But where does it fit in the timeline?? 

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9 hours ago, Singapore Sling said:

...Says who?

It's quite obvious that the game is clearly a celebratory game for the 20th Anniversary, just because it says that it referenced the end of Colors' story doesn't really mean it takes place after Colors. That could just be another reference akin to how Sonic referenced Secret Rings and the like and do you really want to figure out how Eggman got out of the White Space and discovers the Lost Hex?

and i know this because neps said so and i take her word as the law.... except when it comes to boom but don't tell her that

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3 hours ago, sansy said:

It's quite obvious that the game is clearly a celebratory game for the 20th Anniversary, just because it says that it referenced the end of Colors' story doesn't really mean it takes place after Colors. That could just be another reference akin to how Sonic referenced Secret Rings and the like and do you really want to figure out how Eggman got out of the White Space and discovers the Lost Hex?

and i know this because neps said so and i take her word as the law.... except when it comes to boom but don't tell her that

...Literally none of that has to do with how canonical the game is. 

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I just figured Eggman got out of the White Space the same way he survived the fall from space in Sonic & Knuckles.

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Honestly I just assumed it was there because of all the fucking around with Space/Time that was going on in that game. Like it was just kinda pulled from the pre-retcon ending or something.

It's just a big ball of Timey-Wimey stuff.

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Crisis City is there because Generations is a "remember this" game. So, they just threw in the most iconic stages from each game to play through.

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White Space is where things go when they are erased from spacetime. Why is this so confusing to you guys?

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7 minutes ago, Sparky said:

White Space is where things go when they are erased from spacetime. Why is this so confusing to you guys?

because headcanons must be more complicated than they really are. Sonic rule.

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4 hours ago, Sonikku Mikyeong said:

because headcanons must be more complicated than they really are. Sonic rule.

Or, you know, some of us just forgot that part, like myself. :U

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If we're assuming that Sonic Generations is a canon game, then you could look at Sonic 06 as a timeline that doesn't necessarily cease to exist but rather one that the characters abandoned by way of simply returning to towards its beginning and making different decisions. In easier terms, think of it as a road that dead-ends: The road is still there even if you back your car up.

But again, the question's pertinence assumes that Generations is a canon game and not a meta celebration of the franchise without regards to explanation and context. Unless Classic Sonic is a separate entity from another universe altogether and not Sonic's younger self on the timeline that we know of (which wouldn't make sense), it makes no sense that he lacks the foresight of certain events within the games or even meeting himself since he experienced them ahead of time in Generations (ex. he shouldn't have been surprised by the Wisps' powers or even had had to ask Tails what a Wisp was in Colors since he technically used one in his younger years), and subsequently it doesn't make sense that Modern Sonic doesn't remember anything about the past games at all.

Shadow and Silver are also plot holes, having random scores to settle with Sonic that can only be explained by determining that they're the individuals who exist presently in the games that they debuted in. Yet later on they're cheering Sonic on like they've gotten over their initial conflicts with him and have established camaraderie, as if these are the versions of Shadow and Silver that were already developed and would have existed at the time of Sonic's birthday party. If they're the former, then we effectively have two Shadows and Silvers running around in the present now after all was said and done. If they're the latter, then it makes no damn sense for them to be fighting Sonic in the first place and they're just wasting time.

So in short, Crisis City is there because Sonic Team wanted it to be there. Whether or not it makes sense within canon isn't the point because the point of the game is to celebrate the franchise from the audience's perspective.

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It depends on how you believe or classify time, especially when we enter the world of fiction.

 

For example, here in the real world, assuming we do not get too close to a black hole, or go so fast our eyes start to fall out, time is pretty much... this... ----->

However, in fiction, time can be represented as this... -----> 

But then we get to the issue of 'I want to change something' so say you go back in time and prevent the bad future of Sonic 06, yes you prevented that future.... for those who were around before that future came to be... but what of those living in that future in what is their present. Do they suddenly reset to a lovely existence, or is Crisis City still Crisis City?

Is there somewhere in time where that future still exists? This is where time travel fiction becomes branching, think a train track, you go back and change the tracks, but the other tracks are still there.

So when they 'change' the future, do they actually change the future, or simple change the tracks?

 

Go watch movies like Terminator Genesis (yeah they actually kinda explain this sorta alright), Star Trek Voyager (the Year of Hell) Star Trek Voyager (Futures End).

Or pretty much the David Tennant - Matt Smith doctor who era.

Actually just watch this.

Remember, fiction.

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38 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

If we're assuming that Sonic Generations is a canon game, then you could look at Sonic 06 as a timeline that doesn't necessarily cease to exist but rather one that the characters abandoned by way of simply returning to towards its beginning and making different decisions. In easier terms, think of it as a road that dead-ends: The road is still there even if you back your car up.

But again, the question's pertinence assumes that Generations is a canon game and not a meta celebration of the franchise without regards to explanation and context. Unless Classic Sonic is a separate entity from another universe altogether and not Sonic's younger self on the timeline that we know of (which wouldn't make sense), it makes no sense that he lacks the foresight of certain events within the games or even meeting himself since he experienced them ahead of time in Generations (ex. he shouldn't have been surprised by the Wisps' powers or even had had to ask Tails what a Wisp was in Colors since he technically used one in his younger years), and subsequently it doesn't make sense that Modern Sonic doesn't remember anything about the past games at all.

 

Well, unless we go by the time travel theory that your timeline won't be effected by the changes made. Classic Sonic's experience from Gens onward could start an entirely separate timeline that the Modern Sonic in Gens is not effected by. As in, we get a second version of all the games From Sonic 1-Colors where Sonic is aware of certain events and can maybe prevent certain disasters. Again this would be a new branch created differing from Modern's timeline with the only cross being the starting and ending point: Generations.

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13 hours ago, Mister X said:

I never really cared for the idea that the Time Eater is Mephiles. Feels like it's just trying to connect things for the sake of connecting things.

But anyway, Crisis City exists in Generations primarily because they wanted an iconic stage from every major game in the series. Generations focused on gameplay and fanservice above all else, so "lore" isn't really important.

My headcanon?

The amusement park created a black hole of sorts fueled by negative energy, and Time Eater came into existence when the Wisps merged their abilities with the dark matter to eradicate it, in turn creating a mutation.

It's like those germ cleaners that wipe away 99.9% of germs but the one that remains essentially becomes a super germ.

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35 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Well, unless we go by the time travel theory that your timeline won't be effected by the changes made. Classic Sonic's experience from Gens onward could start an entirely separate timeline that the Modern Sonic in Gens is not effected by. As in, we get a second version of all the games From Sonic 1-Colors where Sonic is aware of certain events and can maybe prevent certain disasters. Again this would be a new branch created differing from Modern's timeline with the only cross being the starting and ending point: Generations.

But that theory doesn't work in the context of how Generations presents its time travel because all of the changes that happened chronologically after Sonic's initial birthday party were still intact after the timeline was put back in place: Shadow and Silver are suddenly at the party, and everyone is obviously aware of all of the shenanigans that happened.

What it seems to me happened is that Time Eater simply moved the whole canon to a purgatory state of existence where you could go to specific points in time to and fro before his defeat simply moved it back into normal space time, and yet this happened without erasing any changes made or new experiences had by the characters, otherwise they would have forgotten them a la Sonic 06. This means that Generations' beginning and ending actually happened on a linear timeline, taking place after Colors yet before Lost World, and yet its middle also happened during certain points in games from Sonic 1 to Sonic Colors. 

So things that were experienced while each version of Sonic was running around in games that were outside of their current states of existence should have affected their memories. Even assuming Classic Sonic went back and changed things due to his foreknowledge and created his own timeline that we won't see, the Sonic we know of in this timeline should've had prescience of the things that happened in the games from Sonic 1 onward, because in the context of these older games' point of view his future self had already been to some of these major points in time. Sonic in SA1 for example would have known about facing Shadow on the ARK, thus he wouldn't have freaked out about nearly getting killed by Eggman launching him into space.

The only way I can see the whole unaffected timeline thing being true is if each individual point in time you can visit branched off into its' own separate timeline the moment Modern and Classic Sonic touched them, but that doesn't make sense if we assume that the previous games still actually connect to one another. Like, you wouldn't be able to argue that Sonic 2 precedes Sonic 3 & Knuckles which precedes Adventure because- as of Generations- these games effectively wouldn't exist as we know them anymore.

Basically, Generations fucks a whole bunch of shit up. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Nepenthe
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I'm confused. So Modern Sonic because he was going through the past games he's already been through and therefore has a memory of them, has a context of those events? I mean I don't see why Modern Sonic's younger self(not the Classic seen in Gens) would and should now know about everything in Sonic 2 onwards, since those versions weren't present. 

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LORE THEORY: Everything got better after the Time Eater exploded. The present characters know what happened during Generations, but the past is no longer affected at all because the Time Eater's demise fixed everything. Classic Sonic and Tails go home and just forget everything that happened. The end.

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1 hour ago, KHCast said:

I'm confused. So Modern Sonic because he was going through the past games he's already been through and therefore has a memory of them, has a context of those events? I mean I don't see why Modern Sonic's younger self(not the Classic seen in Gens) would and should now know about everything in Sonic 2 onwards, since those versions weren't present. 

Basically Modern Sonic went back in time, experienced the entire canon in snippets, then went back to his present with those memories intact. If we try to go with the unaffected timeline theory, it wouldn't make sense for Sonic to retain memories of anything in Generations because the memories associated with time travelling would constitute a change (Shadow and Silver being at the party when they weren't beforehand is another change). We also know that Sonic's presence was still relevant within their respective games since certain events in the stages that were the direct result of his previous existence still happened. After all, it'd make no sense for the GUN truck to chase you in Gens' City Escape if Sonic hadn't already been framed for robbing the bank. 

What we have is a situation where time travels in a fixed, linear fashion but somehow Classic Sonic had already went through different points of time simultaneously via running through Gens' purgatory state before finishing Green Hill Zone in Sonic 1. And this has to be the Classic Sonic that resulted in our Modern Sonic because he was taken from the same timeline that everything and everyone else was that led to Gens, the same timeline that says Sonic was framed for robbing the bank and thus GUN was after him within Gens' City Escape, the same City Escape that happened in SA2 that was restored at the end of the Gens. Otherwise, if Classic Sonic went back to the Green Hill that we know existed in Sonic 1 and used his foreknowledge to create another timeline, then the rest of the game and all of the sequels would be effectively retconned. And if that's the case, these stages arguably wouldn't even exist in Generations for Modern Sonic to revisit in the first place. 

Gens is just a clusterfuck of random time travel rules that exist for storytelling's sake versus any actual respect for the logic that would be involved in any individual rule's proper observance. Regardless of how you try to reconcile the game's plot with known time travel logic, you either end up with a canon were Sonic just has an inconsistent case of amnesia, or you end up with a canon that arguably does not and should not exist. So I just go by Occam's Razor and say Gens isn't canon and ignore it.

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12 hours ago, Mister X said:

Generations 2 should just be nothing but '06 stages.

Sega should Pull an Activision and make a $79.99 compilation with both Generations 2 and a Sonic 06 remake.

The twist will be that people will only buy it for the original game instead of the remake.

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2 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

Basically Modern Sonic went back in time, experienced the entire canon in snippets, then went back to his present with those memories intact. If we try to go with the unaffected timeline theory, it wouldn't make sense for Sonic to retain memories of anything in Generations because the memories associated with time travelling would constitute a change (Shadow and Silver being at the party when they weren't beforehand is another change). We also know that Sonic's presence was still relevant within their respective games since certain events in the stages that were the direct result of his previous existence still happened. After all, it'd make no sense for the GUN truck to chase you in Gens' City Escape if Sonic hadn't already been framed for robbing the bank. 

What we have is a situation where time travels in a fixed, linear fashion but somehow Classic Sonic had already went through different points of time simultaneously via running through Gens' purgatory state before finishing Green Hill Zone in Sonic 1. And this has to be the Classic Sonic that resulted in our Modern Sonic because he was taken from the same timeline that everything and everyone else was that led to Gens, the same timeline that says Sonic was framed for robbing the bank and thus GUN was after him within Gens' City Escape, the same City Escape that happened in SA2 that was restored at the end of the Gens. Otherwise, if Classic Sonic went back to the Green Hill that we know existed in Sonic 1 and used his foreknowledge to create another timeline, then the rest of the game and all of the sequels would be effectively retconned. And if that's the case, these stages arguably wouldn't even exist in Generations for Modern Sonic to revisit in the first place. 

Gens is just a clusterfuck of random time travel rules that exist for storytelling's sake versus any actual respect for the logic that would be involved in any individual rule's proper observance. Regardless of how you try to reconcile the game's plot with known time travel logic, you either end up with a canon were Sonic just has an inconsistent case of amnesia, or you end up with a canon that arguably does not and should not exist. So I just go by Occam's Razor and say Gens isn't canon and ignore it.

Well, in Back to the future, Marty went through time and made changes and he and Doc still remember the alternate timelines. Isn't it the same idea here? Though you're definitely right about them just being lazy with the time travel rules.

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1 hour ago, KHCast said:

Well, in Back to the future, Marty went through time and made changes and he and Doc still remember the alternate timelines. Isn't it the same idea here? Though you're definitely right about them just being lazy with the time travel rules.

I've never seen Back to the Future (don't kill me), but Future Marty and Doc remembering their time travel adventures without a change in their existing timeline only makes sense if they didn't meaningfully interact with anything in the process of doing so and only observed things. Otherwise, they risk changing their original timeline. But past Sonic was directly inserted into future events by way of experiencing them outside the normal flow of space-time before returning to GHZ, and the end goal of the game is to restore the canon to its original state that we know of from past games. If we accept that the original Sonic canon still exists, and thus the Classic Sonic we see is the same Classic Sonic from the original games, then he must either not remember anything (which doesn't make sense considering everyone else does) or be deliberately going through every Sonic game sans Lost World with the knowledge that he has to play everything straight (which is too far fetched to be believable).

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15 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I've never seen Back to the Future (don't kill me), but Future Marty and Doc remembering their time travel adventures without a change in their existing timeline only makes sense if they didn't meaningfully interact with anything in the process of doing so and only observed things. Otherwise, they risk changing their original timeline. But past Sonic was directly inserted into future events by way of experiencing them outside the normal flow of space-time before returning to GHZ, and the end goal of the game is to restore the canon to its original state that we know of from past games. If we accept that the original Sonic canon still exists, and thus the Classic Sonic we see is the same Classic Sonic from the original games, then he must either not remember anything (which doesn't make sense considering everyone else does) or be deliberately going through every Sonic game sans Lost World with the knowledge that he has to play everything straight (which is too far fetched to be believable).

That's exactly what happened in part 2 lol. And  they still remember that timeline. But I digress. You make a point there. Generations is a clusterfuck, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it makes sense(The whole Blaze thing is what officially made me realize, they really didn't give a shit.), but merely attempting to give context and rules to Gens time travel.(Though Sega has never been a genius at implementing time travel in their Sonic games, so why they constantly use it still baffles me.)

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