My opinions on Sonic stories

[Tara]

2 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

Yet those definitions have been stated time and time again - those who say they want some darkness or intensity have made it perfectly clear they're not asking for things to turn into Saw levels of brooding atmosphere or bloody, adult violence. They consistently point to other franchise to make their case, Pokemon with it's movies, Megaman X and Zero for being darker and edgier than Classic, if not pointing in the franchise itself with the Adventure titles.

So sounds more like the opposition know what they mean and are just plugging their ears and strawmanning.

Well, the remnants of the other two flavors isn't gonna kill ya tho, so that makes it more like whiny nitpicking. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You don't know that I could be allergic to chocolate or strawberries and having them all in one tub would kill me because of cross-contamination.

But nah, ice cream is a food you eat out of leisure; usually not from necessity.  So if I'm eating something that promises to be delicious, but it has things I don't like in it, there's really no reason I should be eating it.  Especially when I really don't like the other two flavors. @3@ It is possible for smaller things to bog down a larger package.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 minutes ago, Tara said:

You don't know that I could be allergic to chocolate or strawberries and having them all in one tub would kill me because of cross-contamination.

But nah, ice cream is a food you eat out of leisure; usually not from necessity.  So if I'm eating something that promises to be delicious, but it has things I don't like in it, there's really no reason I should be eating it.  Especially when I really don't like the other two flavors. @3@ It is possible for smaller things to bog down a larger package.

Yeah, I made that edit...

To the extent that you discard the entire package? Yeah, that's just wasteful. Much worse than division of profits, fandom, and focus. If that's the case might as well simply not eat the ice cream then.

[Tara]

Just now, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

Yeah, I made that edit...

To the extent that you discard the entire package? Yeah, that's just wasteful. Much worse than division of profits, fandom, and focus. If that's the case might as well simply not eat the ice cream then.

And that's exactly the problem.  When I go to parties and they serve Neapolitan ice cream, I always politely decline because I frankly can't stand the way they blend together like that.  Especially after the scoop has been mixed in the other flavors (because god forbid you wash it between scoops) and the ice cream has had time to move around and be mixed in.  Again, fine for a party, because if someone else doesn't eat it, it can be saved for later, and even if not, no big deal.  It's just ice cream.  The money's already been spent.

But when you're selling a Sonic franchise, you want people to want the ice cream.  You want people to want to eat it, because you want their money from it, which means alienating as few peope as possible.  Obviously, no one is going to be one hundred percent satisfied, my point is that there's an art, not a science, to this balancing act.  Just giving people all three flavors isn't always an ideal solution.  You can have games that focus more on characters, and games that focus more on plot.  If you're really good, you can have both, but not all things are really good at this.  Because unless you make these games as distinct as the Batman Arkham games versus the Lego Batman games, one is going to be ultimately impacted by the decisions of the other, and so their flavors are going to blend.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Tara said:

And that's exactly the problem.  When I go to parties and they serve Neapolitan ice cream, I always politely decline because I frankly can't stand the way they blend together like that.  Especially after the scoop has been mixed in the other flavors (because god forbid you wash it between scoops) and the ice cream has had time to move around and be mixed in.  Again, fine for a party, because if someone else doesn't eat it, it can be saved for later, and even if not, no big deal.  It's just ice cream.  The money's already been spent.

But when you're selling a Sonic franchise, you want people to want the ice cream.  You want people to want to eat it, because you want their money from it, which means alienating as few peope as possible.  Obviously, no one is going to be one hundred percent satisfied, my point is that there's an art, not a science, to this balancing act.  Just giving people all three flavors isn't always an ideal solution.  You can have games that focus more on characters, and games that focus more on plot.  If you're really good, you can have both, but not all things are really good at this.  Because unless you make these games as distinct as the Batman Arkham games versus the Lego Batman games, one is going to be ultimately impacted by the decisions of the other, and so their flavors are going to blend.

Except 1) I've always known it's a balancing act - I've been one of the core people here preaching it since 2007-ish, so you're preaching to the choir. And 2) that's not the point I'm making here.

You can have games that focus more on characters, you have games that focus more on the events - quite frankly, one could argue the plot is about the characters and their events, so you'll have to make a different argument than that. But the point is that while one may have more of one thing or the other, the other group shouldn't be excluded from other things they might like, hence my point about it being like taking two or three flavors out of Neapolitan ice cream and having everyone eat what's left. The whole point in having three flavors is so that someone who likes strawberry can have it without telling those who like chocolate or vanilla to fuck off because they're ruining their favorite ice cream. Heck some people in the group might actually prefer mint or cookies'n'cream over those three flavors, but they're willing to settle for one of the three or not bother and let those that do enjoy it. Some might not even like ice cream at all, but they're not going to ruin it for people who do.

Yes, there are some people who are going to be alienated because things aren't 100% to their liking - those nitpicking over so called smaller things that would bog down the whole package - but there are others who, while they might not some things, isn't exactly going to be all alienated so long as they can get something they like out of it. Yeah, I prefer SA2 when it comes to storytelling while acknowledgeing that there can be something off with the flavor, but I can enjoy Color's the same way, and I can taste Lost Worlds and show my distaste without a passive-aggressive disrespect and let others enjoy it - even offer ways to better it without trying to make it like SA2 - so long as I can at least have my SA2 flavor the next time. Is it hard to ask for that very empathy for those who prefer it the other way around?

Not everyone is asking for the same thing every time, but it seems others aren't so sympathetic and are like "strawberry or GTFO." Yeah, unless you're allergic, you are not going to die from a little chocolate or vanilla in your strawberry, so how about ya learn to share, no? Either that, or find an alternative or don't bother - ask for your flavor next time (and not 3 parties later).

[PandoloFox]

I would rather say "know your material", stories will always have different flavors in them. In no point have i ever seen a story that entirely dismisses its characters thoughts and just straight goes for the event after the event aproach. Down time, small talk, a bit of comedic scenes often finds its way into stories be it a drama or an action flick. The only type of vids that would be devoid of this would be documentaries and history movies where they just tell you facts about certain situations. 

Different flavors will always be in the soup, so better have people that knows how to prepare it. When is a comedic act appropriate, when should it be taken straight and so on.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I've said it once before, and I'll likely end up saying it again, but if I had to go with what I felt worked well with the video games, Unleashed, Adventure, and Black Knight are the games that spring to mind. I've always said that one of the series' biggest problems in terms of story was trying to balance out the tone of the game, so it either leads to no feeling of tension or threat when the characters are constantly throwing out cringe-worthy jokes all of the time, or it's so grim-dark, it's completely laughable that we're still seeing cringe worthy dialogue from a blue hedgehog that runs around fast talking about the end of the world with no actual lighthearted dialogue to balance anything out. 

Adventure, despite the stilted dialogue that hasn't really stood the test of time I still felt had a good idea of how to handle the story for their first 3D game. The situation is treated serious, so Chaos actually feels like a threat. On top of that, they had a smart idea of showing Chaos' Perfect Form right at the start of the intro. This was what I felt like an important and smart decision because it shows us right away what exactly will occur if we fail to stop Eggman. It gives us an actual good sense of scale and destruction that Chaos can easily achieve if he manages to get to his perfect form. We get a sense of tension right from the start that engages us enough to want to stop Chaos. However, a balance is still kept throughout the story where things don't go overly grim dark. The threat is always there, but it isn't constantly shoved into our face like it is in 06 or Shadow. We still have moments like Sonic mocking Eggman to keep the tension down. However, because it is the first of the 3D series, there is a ton of issues in terms of the actual story, which is why I personally feel X managed a better adaption than the original story (For one, they actually made a good adaption and kept Chris out of it for the most part). But the dialogue felt less stilted and odd, and a lot of plot points feel better explained, while the game's story is still retained with a good balance, and a loyal adaption. For example, I like how Tails actually ended up getting injured during their assault on the Egg Carrier, because it actually shows the heroes aren't just immune to damage, and explains it better than Tails just falling into the Mystic Ruins and being alright. On top of that, some of the stupider plot points got removed, like Knuckles being tricked AGAIN by Eggman. So it feels like Knuckles is actually developing a little throughout the series that he won't fall for Eggman's stupid plots as much anymore. 

But Unleashed is my favourite out of the series for story, because I feel like the story was handled much better with a much better tone. The dialogue feels like it was written in a way where Dark Gaia's presence and danger is always there. Notice how Sonic never cracks any jokes in regards to Dark Gaia specifically for example. If Sonic was constantly throwing jokes at this massive monster with the potential to destroy the world in 5 minutes, why should we feel threatened by the creature? If Sonic can just throw out that massive scale threat right away, then it can't be that bad. However, Dark Gaia is always mentioned as a threat to the world, and a creature of pure evil that needs to be stopped. It isn't constantly thrown into our faces, but it's there, and adds a sense of weight to the story. Meanwhile, Sonic does make jokes regarding Eggman, and that's because he feels he can handle Eggman's attempts at beating him. I always had a personal headcanon that the reason Sonic makes jokes to Eggman is the same reason Spider-Man always makes wisecracks. It's to keep himself calmer in the fight, while also throwing Eggman off balance, something that can work against a egotistical doctor like Eggman who can't handle blows to his ego well. With something like Dark Gaia, something that only cares about destruction, wisecracks wouldn't do anything to it.

This ties into Eggmanland as well. Notice how when Sonic's fighting the Egg Dragoon, Eggman has gone all in when trying to beat Sonic this time, and every second counts, Sonic isn't making nearly as many jokes as he usually does. Keep in mind what Eggman just said to Sonic moments ago. Eggman was responsible for Dark Gaia's full completion. He gleefully tells Sonic he gave one of the biggest threats full power just for a stupid amusement park in Eggman's image. It's understandable that Sonic's treating the situation extremely seriously now, because Eggman has now given Dark Gaia the power to destroy everything just for powering an amusement park. Even when face to face with Eggman himself, he still won't mention a word to him. He just does nothing but pound on the machine until it's nothing but scrap. 

This works extremely well because we spent the entirety of the game getting to know the inhabitants of each part of the world, and that builds a level of tension because we don't to see them getting harmed because of Dark Gaia. Throughout a lot of the game, we still get Sonic's moments of wisecracks, but at the core, we get everything that characterizes Sonic. He doesn't care about glory, or looking like the hero, he's just a wisecracker that wants to help out wherever he can. He isn't just a character that jokes in every situation, but a character who knows when to take situations seriously, and knows when to take action. He'll stop and help anybody out, and try to make them feel better, no matter how well he knows them, as seen throughout his adventures in all of the different locations around the planet. The tone just feels balanced that the locations, character designs, and writing feels varied enough to support lighthearted antics, and serious themes throughout. Black Knight handled this just as well, with Sonic outright stating he doesn't care if he looks like a villain for taking down King Arthur and stopping his evil, as long as it helps out the world in the long run. It shows that Sonic doesn't care about glory and popularity, he cares about doing what's right, and helping as many people as he possibly can.

This is something that other games in the series lacked, and something that has angered me more starting with Colours. Unleashed got Sonic's personality down to a tee, but from Colours onwards, he got flanderized into a character who's only personality traits are run, make joke, maybe help people, and make joke again. Alright, I'm fine with a few jokes, but when it gets to the point where I can't find any sense of tension or threat in what we're meant to be achieving in the game, then I honestly can't care. It's the same with Lost World where they try to make Sonic into just a hotheaded idiot who only wisecracks all of the time. Sonic may be a wisecracker, but he isn't a character who fucks up, and then right away begins laughing off the fact he just handed the ability to destroy his entire planet to a bunch of Zeti who couldn't care less about anyone other than themselves. 

It's the same with 06 and Shadow. Sonic also isn't a character who takes a situation absolutely seriously to the point he won't make any jokes whatsoever and only discusses how dangerous the situation is (Speaking more about 06 because Shadow flanderizes Sonic in the same way Colours/Gens/Lost World does). It just needs to be a balance where Sonic can take situations seriously when he knows they need to be taken seriously, but can still make a few wisecracks to lighten the mood a little, again, much like Unleashed did it. 

[Chaotix Prime]

On 5/12/2016 at 9:49 AM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

But Unleashed is my favourite out of the series for story, because I feel like the story was handled much better with a much better tone. The dialogue feels like it was written in a way where Dark Gaia's presence and danger is always there. Notice how Sonic never cracks any jokes in regards to Dark Gaia specifically for example. If Sonic was constantly throwing jokes at this massive monster with the potential to destroy the world in 5 minutes, why should we feel threatened by the creature? If Sonic can just throw out that massive scale threat right away, then it can't be that bad. However, Dark Gaia is always mentioned as a threat to the world, and a creature of pure evil that needs to be stopped. It isn't constantly thrown into our faces, but it's there, and adds a sense of weight to the story. Meanwhile, Sonic does make jokes regarding Eggman, and that's because he feels he can handle Eggman's attempts at beating him. I always had a personal headcanon that the reason Sonic makes jokes to Eggman is the same reason Spider-Man always makes wisecracks. It's to keep himself calmer in the fight, while also throwing Eggman off balance, something that can work against a egotistical doctor like Eggman who can't handle blows to his ego well. With something like Dark Gaia, something that only cares about destruction, wisecracks wouldn't do anything to it.

This ties into Eggmanland as well. Notice how when Sonic's fighting the Egg Dragoon, Eggman has gone all in when trying to beat Sonic this time, and every second counts, Sonic isn't making nearly as many jokes as he usually does. Keep in mind what Eggman just said to Sonic moments ago. Eggman was responsible for Dark Gaia's full completion. He gleefully tells Sonic he gave one of the biggest threats full power just for a stupid amusement park in Eggman's image. It's understandable that Sonic's treating the situation extremely seriously now, because Eggman has now given Dark Gaia the power to destroy everything just for powering an amusement park. Even when face to face with Eggman himself, he still won't mention a word to him. He just does nothing but pound on the machine until it's nothing but scrap. 

This works extremely well because we spent the entirety of the game getting to know the inhabitants of each part of the world, and that builds a level of tension because we don't to see them getting harmed because of Dark Gaia. Throughout a lot of the game, we still get Sonic's moments of wisecracks, but at the core, we get everything that characterizes Sonic. He doesn't care about glory, or looking like the hero, he's just a wisecracker that wants to help out wherever he can. He isn't just a character that jokes in every situation, but a character who knows when to take situations seriously, and knows when to take action. He'll stop and help anybody out, and try to make them feel better, no matter how well he knows them, as seen throughout his adventures in all of the different locations around the planet. The tone just feels balanced that the locations, character designs, and writing feels varied enough to support lighthearted antics, and serious themes throughout. Black Knight handled this just as well, with Sonic outright stating he doesn't care if he looks like a villain for taking down King Arthur and stopping his evil, as long as it helps out the world in the long run. It shows that Sonic doesn't care about glory and popularity, he cares about doing what's right, and helping as many people as he possibly can.

This is something that other games in the series lacked, and something that has angered me more starting with Colours. Unleashed got Sonic's personality down to a tee, but from Colours onwards, he got flanderized into a character who's only personality traits are run, make joke, maybe help people, and make joke again. Alright, I'm fine with a few jokes, but when it gets to the point where I can't find any sense of tension or threat in what we're meant to be achieving in the game, then I honestly can't care. It's the same with Lost World where they try to make Sonic into just a hotheaded idiot who only wisecracks all of the time. Sonic may be a wisecracker, but he isn't a character who fucks up, and then right away begins laughing off the fact he just handed the ability to destroy his entire planet to a bunch of Zeti who couldn't care less about anyone other than themselves. 

It's the same with 06 and Shadow. Sonic also isn't a character who takes a situation absolutely seriously to the point he won't make any jokes whatsoever and only discusses how dangerous the situation is (Speaking more about 06 because Shadow flanderizes Sonic in the same way Colours/Gens/Lost World does). It just needs to be a balance where Sonic can take situations seriously when he knows they need to be taken seriously, but can still make a few wisecracks to lighten the mood a little, again, much like Unleashed did it. 

Right on, dude! His unleashed version is the Sonic I love.

[Diogenes]

On 5/12/2016 at 0:49 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

If Sonic was constantly throwing jokes at this massive monster with the potential to destroy the world in 5 minutes, why should we feel threatened by the creature?

Because we've already seen that it's dangerous. Sonic's views don't have to be taken as objective truth. Maybe he's unjustly overconfident. Maybe it's how he psyches himself up against tough enemies.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think the better point here would be if the story itself treats the monsters as a joke, then why should anyone feel threatened? Sonic is always gonna be a wisecracker, but he doesn't set the story than he does react to it.