Sonic and Tails' friendship in SLW thread

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I decided to put it into one thread since people do have their own ideas on how they should have been handled in Sonic Lost World. So with that, I leave people with these questions:

-Do you think Sonic was in the wrong trusting the doc?

-What would you have done better to make the tension between the two friends better?

-Was Tails in the right to be angry with Sonic?

-Would you like to see Sonic and Tails' friendship on the rocks in future games?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

9 minutes ago, Sonikku. said:

I decided to put it into one thread since people do have their own ideas on how they should have been handled in Sonic Lost World. So with that, I leave people with these questions:

-Do you think Sonic was in the wrong trusting the doc?

-What would you have done better to make the tension between the two friends better?

-Was Tails in the right to be angry with Sonic?

-Would you like to see Sonic and Tails' friendship on the rocks in future games?

-No, Sonic was in a race against time and all of his friends were slowly being killed, and the person who created the machine is offering to help you fix the problem. Tails could do it, but he'd need much much more time to do it than Eggman, time Sonic does not have.

-If Sonic was actually in the wrong, and the story outright said Tails was in the wrong, or at least have both of them say they were wrong.

-No, he was not. See above.

-It's a interesting story idea, but Potac/Graff does not have the ability to write a good story around it. If it was written better, maybe it has potential.

[Nepenthe]

My responses towards the questions pertaining to Lost World are going to be grounded entirely within the material Lost World has provided in its narrative. Anything I'm about to say isn't necessarily an endorsement of an equal but opposite viewpoint.

1.) Sonic wasn't wrong for trusting Eggman because all he expected him to do was to turn off the machine, which he actually did anyway (all Tails did was reprogram the machine to return the stolen energy). One must also note that it took around two scenes for him to actually accept to the idea of teaming up, and in the meantime he made sure to constantly defend his and Tails' ability to handle things and also get Tails in on making fun of him. Even after they got together, he was still making quips about Eggman's behavior and bases. There was no significant example of Sonic trusting Eggman beyond the platonic parameters of settling the current situation that threatened everyone's self-interests presented in the game, which isn't any more problematic than the team-up in SA2.

2.) If we're trying to make the original conflict work better, first have Sonic less defensive in the beginning when Eggman is berating him. Instead of "Get lost, Eggman!" when Eggman points out that Sonic's actions have caused the Six to run amok, have him say something to the tune of "I was there when it happened, Egg Face; You don't have to rub it in." From here, have him more immediately receptive of Eggman's ideas, even if it's a very begrudging acceptance like what we do see in the game. Second and most importantly, have Tails hint at his concerns before he and Sonic actually fight. Have him actually make an argument that he can turn off Eggman's machine. And have Eggman argue back. By doing these two things, you establish Sonic as actually having had his confidence affected by the whole thing and thus make it reasonably harder for him to make the call in forgoing Eggman's help, and you immediately justify Tails' anger much better and make his feelings and arguments far more valid.

3.) No, it's not right in the moral sense. Tails' anger is understandable on the surface, and indeed when I originally watched the whole series of cutscenes I didn't think anything was wrong writing wise until I went back and noticed the glaring lack of subtext and foreshadowing for Tails' anger. First, Tails starts a fight by insulting Eggman, and Eggman threatens him back. It's about to turn physical, and Sonic steps in to remind everyone that there's bigger fish to fry. Tails then takes this opportunity, of all opportunities, to accuse Sonic of trusting Eggman more than Tails (and also arguing that he doesn't trust Tails at all) which isn't actually justified by his actions and words in the two preceeding scenes. At best, you can say the impetus for this suddenly coming out is that Sonic simply tried to keep them from kicking the crap out of each other instead of allowing Tails to do whatever he wanted to do to Eggman. But that was the right call for Sonic to make because, at the very least, fighting among your teammates when the planet is dying is such an outrageous fucking waste of time that it makes the argument that much more childish and annoying in comparison.

4.) Sure, why not? Just so long as it's done with writing that understands properly setting up conflicts.

[Diogenes]

44 minutes ago, Sonikku. said:

-Do you think Sonic was in the wrong trusting the doc?

-Was Tails in the right to be angry with Sonic?

The way I see it, the whole point is that these questions don't come down to simple yes/no answers. Was Sonic wrong in trusting Eggman? On the one hand, not only was Eggman's help not necessary, he was actively plotting against the heroes and using them to regain control and continue his original plan. On the other, after his impulsiveness got them into trouble it makes sense for him to be more cautious and to not let his gut feelings lead him into what might be another mistake. As for Tails, being hurt by Sonic's actions wasn't entirely logically sound and getting angry about it wasn't productive. But it's a fundamentally emotional reaction, from a literal child, and it's understandable where his pain is coming from.

Too much of these arguments comes down to people interpreting everything in absolutes of right and wrong and getting mad when the game doesn't agree with their interpretation.

[shdowhunt60]

Just now, Diogenes said:

The way I see it, the whole point is that these questions don't come down to simple yes/no answers.

 

Just now, Diogenes said:

Was Sonic wrong in trusting Eggman? On the one hand, not only was Eggman's help not necessary, he was actively plotting against the heroes and using them to regain control and continue his original plan.

But we only know this in hindsight: Eggman gave no indication that he was planning to betray Sonic and Tails. That's an purely an assumption that we, as the genre savvy audience, make about Eggman.

Just now, Diogenes said:

On the other, after his impulsiveness got them into trouble it makes sense for him to be more cautious and to not let his gut feelings lead him into what might be another mistake.

Except,  to contradict this, Sonic does something stupid and impulsive and gets Tails captured, so I doubt that it was because he was trying to be more cautious.

Just now, Diogenes said:

As for Tails, being hurt by Sonic's actions wasn't entirely logically sound and getting angry about it wasn't productive. But it's a fundamentally emotional reaction, from a literal child, and it's understandable where his pain is coming from.

It actually isn't. Tails might be a child, but he's a smart child, and he draws his conclusion that Sonic trusts Eggman more than him out of absolutely nothing. Once again, the prior cutscene has them BOTH making snipes at Eggman before they BOTH reluctantly let him tag along. Once again, where is the scene where Sonic displays that he might have a preference for Eggman over Tails?

Just now, Diogenes said:

Too much of these arguments comes down to people interpreting everything in absolutes of right and wrong and getting mad when the game doesn't agree with their interpretation.

Or it's because you're too willing to ignore what is objectively terrible writing for whatever reason.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, shdowhunt60 said:

But we only know this in hindsight: Eggman gave no indication that he was planning to betray Sonic and Tails. That's an purely an assumption that we, as the genre savvy audience, make about Eggman.

There's no "assumption" being made. Choosing to ally with Eggman was both unnecessary and detrimental, that Sonic didn't know ahead of time doesn't invalidate that. From the position of "did this decision help Sonic achieve his goals", it was the wrong choice. But, like I said, that's not the only position to consider.

On top of this you don't need to be a genre savvy audience member to have reservations about working with a guy who has tried to kill you more times than you can count.

Quote

Except,  to contradict this, Sonic does something stupid and impulsive and gets Tails captured, so I doubt that it was because he was trying to be more cautious.

Sonic is imperfect, who would have thought.

Quote

It actually isn't. Tails might be a child, but he's a smart child,

And this in no way invalidates the fact that he is a child. If you think Tails being smart is supposed to override his emotions, you are arguing in favor of a worse character.

Quote

Once again, where is the scene where Sonic displays that he might have a preference for Eggman over Tails?

It's the part where he lets Eggman tag along to handle the mechanical stuff, in spite of that being Tails' main strength. You want to say that they could have built up the eventual argument better? That is 100% correct. You want to act like there is literally no way to get from one scene to the other? Then you're being intentionally obtuse.

[Nepenthe]

Letting Eggman tagalong does not show a preference for Eggman's general trustworthiness over Tails' on Sonic's part, mainly because Sonic was never actually presented with the argument that Tails could stop that specific machine before Tails blew up on him after an irrelevant event. After all, you can't display preference if you only have one choice. So if Tails wanted to let everyone know he could shut off the machine, maybe he should've actually argued that he could shut off the machine when Eggman was proposing the plan instead of just accepting the team-up. It would've actually made for more interesting fall out if that happened before he got angry at Sonic.

[Multikaris]

3 hours ago, Sonikku. said:

I decided to put it into one thread since people do have their own ideas on how they should have been handled in Sonic Lost World. So with that, I leave people with these questions:

-Do you think Sonic was in the wrong trusting the doc?

-What would you have done better to make the tension between the two friends better?

-Was Tails in the right to be angry with Sonic?

-Would you like to see Sonic and Tails' friendship on the rocks in future games?

- Well, pretty much yes. Robotnik is his long time foe, as opposed to these new Zeti fellas who seem much funner. On the other hand, Sonic seems to be as much of a dick as him in this game, so vile minds think alike. Perhaps Sonic sees fighting the Zeti as simply funner?

- I would have had Sonic join the Six instead of Robotnik, but only briefly before it becomes a three-way fight between Sonic, Robotnik, and the Six. Tails briefly decides to aid Eggman, but soon decides nobody can be trusted and tries to get outta there. Sonic doesn't want this to happen. When Tails is caught by the Six, he willingly attacks Sonic due to the severe blows to his trust.

- He should know by now that his friend is a complete jerk who already doesn't want him to do anything. Also, Tails seems to have more respect for Eggman than Sonic, so he does have some right to be appaled by Sonic.

- You know what would be intriguing? Their friendship completely busted, even beyond repair, not just on the rocks.

[shdowhunt60]

5 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

Letting Eggman tagalong does not show a preference for Eggman's general trustworthiness over Tails' on Sonic's part, mainly because Sonic was never actually presented with the argument that Tails could stop that specific machine before Tails blew up on him after an irrelevant event. After all, you can't display preference if you only have one choice. So if Tails wanted to let everyone know he could shut off the machine, maybe he should've actually argued that he could shut off the machine when Eggman was proposing the plan instead of just accepting the team-up. It would've actually made for more interesting fall out if that happened before he got angry at Sonic.

And once again, Sonic and Tails BOTH let Eggman tag along. Sonic and Tails BOTH express their disgust at working with him then they BOTH laugh it off and then they BOTH walk off and Eggman follows behind. So it's, like, they were on the same side of the coin on the matter as it was.

 

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

There's no "assumption" being made. Choosing to ally with Eggman was both unnecessary and detrimental, that Sonic didn't know ahead of time doesn't invalidate that. From the position of "did this decision help Sonic achieve his goals", it was the wrong choice. But, like I said, that's not the only position to consider.

But neither Sonic OR Tails make this observation. So we can't just make the assumption that's what Tails had in mind when he started raging at Sonic.

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

On top of this you don't need to be a genre savvy audience member to have reservations about working with a guy who has tried to kill you more times than you can count.

Sonic DID have reservations. He and Tails both expressed so, before they let him tag along reluctantly.

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic is imperfect, who would have thought.

That or being careful wasn't his motivation. After all, this was the case, as you said it yourself, why would he let Eggman tag along in the first place? Or is Sonic just an idiot in this story? I could believe that after the "I wasn't fast enough to save my buddy" line.

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

And this in no way invalidates the fact that he is a child. If you think Tails being smart is supposed to override his emotions, you are arguing in favor of a worse character.

But nobody just explodes and throws a temper tantrum for no damned reason at all, there's a REASON WHY we have emotions. Why do you constantly assert this? Should I just, without rhyme or reason, just burst into tears when I walk down the street, and it's just okay, because emotions? Of course not.

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It's the part where he lets Eggman tag along to handle the mechanical stuff, in spite of that being Tails' main strength.

That's a weak motivation to throw a temper tantrum at your supposed elder brother figure. If that's really the case that Tails is upset that Sonic let Eggman tag along, which by the way in the prior scene he was completely on the same level as Sonic, then Tails has an extremely fragile ego.

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

You want to say that they could have built up the eventual argument better? That is 100% correct. You want to act like there is literally no way to get from one scene to the other? Then you're being intentionally obtuse.

Am I really? Because I'm certain that I'm not the one who's being obtuse.

[caseykz]

I think it's okay. The plot is a bit simple but it still centres on these mistakes.

or like what i see in the comments while browsing ost/other vids, switch up the order of the cutscenes a bit like tails being a pro with his programming skills should go after sonic got tails back. Keeps the suspense. 

Or possibly a (scripted) tails boss fight. make sonic cant homing attack tails or something, idk never played.

And maybe emphasise a bit more on feelings? Sea Bottom Segue is a good touch. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

16 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It's the part where he lets Eggman tag along to handle the mechanical stuff, in spite of that being Tails' main strength.

exactly. i mean suddenly he NEEDED eggman to shut down HIS machine thus sending the message that he trusted eggman more than his own buddy who's main shilck is tinkering with machines. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

22 hours ago, Sonikku. said:

I decided to put it into one thread since people do have their own ideas on how they should have been handled in Sonic Lost World. So with that, I leave people with these questions:

-Do you think Sonic was in the wrong trusting the doc?

-What would you have done better to make the tension between the two friends better?

-Was Tails in the right to be angry with Sonic?

-Would you like to see Sonic and Tails' friendship on the rocks in future games?

1) Well he wasn't all that trusting of the doc initially. He really seemed like he saw Eggman as a means to an end, as they both had a common enemy in the Deadly Six who were the bigger threat (ironically thanks to his own impulsive actions). And given that, they needed all the help they can muster.

2) Have an actual catalyst believable enough to make fractures in it? Maybe show Eggman doctoring up some fake evidence of Sonic valuing him more prior to Sonic and Tails's argument. If there's anything obtuse, it's the idea that Sonic somehow trusts Eggman more than Tails over this one incident...despite the number of years he's been friends with Tails and fought against and distrusted Eggman. After all that time, they should know each other so well that any tension between them would be difficult to make. It's not unbelievable for trust to break very easily over one incident, but it's unbelievable for it to break out of freaking nowhere, when hardly anything else has done so as easily, where there's hardly any conflict of interest, and with someone whom you've known as close as a brother for years. We've seen characters make some pretty big ass mistakes, but we've never seen them throw temper tantrums so easily when there's bigger stakes at hand.

3) Yes, he was. For the reasons stated in 2

4) I'd love to see something like that. But the current writing direction doesn't seem to be doing it favors for whoever is the one calling the shots (which as far as I can tell, isn't Pontac and Graff, even with my criticisms). I've seen the two have a rocky relationship in the Archie continuity in a far more believable manner, where there was a gradual build up of tension between the two and finally exploded when Sonic came into conflict with Tails's parents and Tails sided with his own flesh and blood, and that was one of the worst arcs of that continuity. And that's really telling.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

4 hours ago, Sonikku. said:

exactly. i mean suddenly he NEEDED eggman to shut down HIS machine thus sending the message that he trusted eggman more than his own buddy who's main shilck is tinkering with machines. 

And yet, as I already said, the point's irrelevant. Eggman built his machine, he's offering to help stop it. I don't care how much knowledge Tails has. When Eggman is the one who came up with the blueprints, and built it from scratch, he has more knowledge on the machine, something that is much more useful when your friends' lives are being drained painfully, and every single second counts. For all Sonic knows, Tails would have needed to study the machine in order to stop it, something Eggman doesn't need to do. 

[Indigo Rush]

But guys, Tails built a TV out of paper clips and reprogrammed a computer with detergent and a toothpick. He told Sonic this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly the writing is just so hackey that I don't find it valuable to make a huge argument defending it anymore. obviously Tails' attitude is the elephant in the room with the story, but SLoW's problems range from poor pacing to nonsensical dialogue. I just appreciate the writers trying something different and attempting to add some character development. It didn't go like they probably thought it would, but they at least tried something, and that's more than I can say about Tails for any of the games post SA2. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

4 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

It didn't go like they probably thought it would, but they at least tried something, and that's more than I can say about Tails for any of the games post SA2. 

What about Colors?

[Indigo Rush]

2 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

What about Colors?

That's a fair point, but it's the same writers, so I think the point stands. Besides which, though, Tails didn't develop or have a character arc, he just was. But then again, so was Sonic and Eggman. The only character that had a story arc was freakin' Cubot with the voice chip. 

Sonic Lost World, in theory, is the only Sonic game in recent memory to have the characters go through an event and change in some fashion. Again, in theory, Sonic trusts Tails more now than he did before. I get that it doesn't follow through because nearly everything about it was a wreck, but there's an idea of a character arc there, and that's something I think is worth praising, because we need more of those. They just need to be better at it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

4 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

That's a fair point, but it's the same writers, so I think the point stands. Besides which, though, Tails didn't develop or have a character arc, he just was. But then again, so was Sonic and Eggman. The only character that had a story arc was freakin' Cubot with the voice chip. 

The same writers who arguably did a better job there compared to Lost Worlds, and actually did something with Tails in Colors without the same problems people have in Lost World. They didn't need to give him a character arc (tho I'd definitely encourage them to do so by all means), but they could at least use the character and give him something instead of him just being there for little to no reason. That that they failed to do that in later games is what really brings into question of said writers' abilities. (or maybe the one in charge - again, who knows?)

[shdowhunt60]

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

What about Colors?

What about it? On a first glance, Tails in Colors is fine, but then you notice some really strange things that Tails does in the game.

1. He's needlessly skeptical: He doubts that Eggman has an evil plot and is dubious that Sonic absorbed a wisp even though Sonic basically did it right in front of him.

2. He really doesn't DO anything, and doesn't contribute meaningfully to the plot at all... Even though he feels the need to brag about it.

It's not a bad portrayal of the character, and by all means its nice to see Sonic and Tails bounce pleasantly off of each other, but I doubt after everything else that Pontac and Graff have done that it's because they have a firm grasp on either character.

So when you claim this:

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

The same writers who arguably did a better job there compared to Lost Worlds, and actually did something with Tails in Colors

I have to beg the question. What DID Pontac and Graff do with Tails in Colors? Because I'm not seeing anything there that convinces me that they rightly know what to do with him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

10 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

What about it? On a first glance, Tails in Colors is fine, but then you notice some really strange things that Tails does in the game.

1. He's needlessly skeptical: He doubts that Eggman has an evil plot and is dubious that Sonic absorbed a wisp even though Sonic basically did it right in front of him.

2. He really doesn't DO anything, and doesn't contribute meaningfully to the plot at all... Even though he feels the need to brag about it.

It's not a bad portrayal of the character, and by all means its nice to see Sonic and Tails bounce pleasantly off of each other, but I doubt after everything else that Pontac and Graff have done that it's because they have a firm grasp on either character.

So when you claim this:

I have to beg the question. What DID Pontac and Graff do with Tails in Colors? Because I'm not seeing anything there that convinces me that they rightly know what to do with him.

They mainly gave him a role of the techie that invents the translator to understand the Wisps and find out what Eggman was really doing.

That may not be much given how simple Colors was in general nor is it saying they rightly know what to do with him (especially given the stories that came after Colors where they botched him), but compared to letting Tails just hang around and do nothing the entire time as a simple tag-along or doing something completely counter to what we know of the character, it at least was something that was not only useful, but playing off the character's ability and history into something that gives substance to the character's reason for being involved.

It's telling that people rarely complain about Tails in Colors compared to Lost World, joke-heaviness of both aside. Tails at the very least had the right to brag about him inventing the translator, otherwise he'd have been absolutely useless and would have been better off not even in the game's plot if I were to be negative about it.

[shdowhunt60]

8 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

They mainly gave him a role of the techie that invents the translator to understand the Wisps and find out what Eggman was really doing.

Tech support isn't anything new to Tails. That's more or less the role he's had, alternating between that and sidekick, since Sonic Riders. I'd argue it's still a limiting role for him, and one that doesn't fully capitalize on his character.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

4 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Tech support isn't anything new to Tails. That's more or less the role he's had, alternating between that and sidekick, since Sonic Riders. I'd argue it's still a limiting role for him, and one that doesn't fully capitalize on his character.

Him being tech support is my whole point as to why he has substance in the small amount of plot that Colors was overall. Him having a history of that further builds it as something we expect and can tolerate him being around, even if it doesn't capitalize on his character, because without it he'd have little to no reason for being around. And that last part is telling given that as Sonic's Sidekick he should have a lot more freedom to do whatever and be around, as opposed to someone like Knuckles where his presence would be a lot more glaring.

[shdowhunt60]

Just now, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Him being tech support is my whole point as to why he has substance in the small amount of plot that Colors was overall. Him having a history of that further builds it as something we expect and can tolerate him being around, even if it doesn't capitalize on his character, because without it he'd have little to no reason for being around. And that last part is telling given that as Sonic's Sidekick he'd have a lot more freedom to do whatever as opposed to someone like Knuckles where his presence would be a lot more glaring.

Okay, so explain to me how this is supposed to make me like Pontac and Graff more and want them to continue to write for the series, and ignore everything else they've done?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Just now, shdowhunt60 said:

Okay, so explain to me how this is supposed to make me like Pontac and Graff more and want them to continue to write for the series, and ignore everything else they've done?

It wasn't? What gave you that idea?

 

[shdowhunt60]

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

It wasn't? What gave you that idea?

 

Sorry for missing the point. But again, I don't just don't see what's special here. As someone who reads both the comics and fanfiction (a lot of which has full blown character deconstructions), it's really not impressive.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Sorry for missing the point. But again, I don't just don't see what's special here. As someone who reads both the comics and fanfiction (a lot of which has full blown character deconstructions), it's really not impressive.

Well I wasn't saying it was anything special or impressive. Just that it had substance and passes without much complaint as opposed to what they did to Tails later.

I would definitely have prefered a lot more than what was given in Colors, but it passes the bare minimum enough that I see little to make issue about.