Does Shadow hold back when he fights Sonic?

[Sparky]

6 minutes ago, SilverStarN64 said:

Why would someone like Shadow, of all people, hold back against anyone for that matter? TBH, it goes against his character do to something like that. After all, he's the "Ultimate Lifeform".

According to Shadow himself, so is Sonic. The whole point behind their rivalry is that Shadow is another Sonic and vise versa. Shadow shares all of Sonic's speed and agility, Sonic instantly mastered Chaos Control with a fake Chaos Emerald. Shadow even said Sonic was the real Ultimate Lifeform. Their battle in Generations was all about them being equals, and they needed the Energy Cores to shift the power balance. 

 

And in terms of holding back, Sonic displayed in Sonic Battle that he is more powerful than he let's on. That, to me, implies that Sonic is as powerful as Shadow is without needing inhibitors to keep it under control. 

[Kuzu]

Sonic and Shadow have all the same abilities. A fight between them is like a fight between two Flashes. The only difference being, for example, one Flash generates the Speed Force and the other knows how to make full use of it for all sorts of crazy things. 

Last I checked, Sonic cannot use Chaos Spear or Chaos Blast.

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[Nepenthe]

Not only that but I don't think the "Ultimate Lifeform" thing is to be taken literally (and thus used as an example of Sonic's capabilities) in the same way that black people calling Bill Clinton the first black president isn't meant to be taken literally.

[Sparky]

10 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Last I checked, Sonic cannot use Chaos Spear or Chaos Blast.

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Yes he can. We already know this, and we don't need to see him use it to know that.  Sonic has been using the Chaos Emeralds to go Super since Sonic 2, and it was clear that it was a unique thing to him even when we saw Tails and Knuckles go super, because they didn't transform like Sonic did. Shadow having Chaos Control stems from that special tie Sonic has with the Chaos Emeralds, and Chaos Spear and Chaos Blast stem from Chaos Control. 

In SA2, Shadow was the  kind of rival that has all of the Hero's abilities with the addition of a special skill he has over the hero, only for the hero to learn that skill in the end.

[Nepenthe]

Using the Chaos Emeralds doesn't mean a character has access to all of the same abilities as another.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

Not speaking of the ways Sonic can still outrun Shadow in most of those situations, what it actually amounts to is that basically you're going to ignore anything any of us say because you have it in your mind that Shadow is the best character. Alright.

He cant

Teleporting is instant. You cant run faster than teleportation because teleportation isn't i ran, its exist in a new part of space now. To use a more recent example, the only way knuckles stopped shadow during total eclipse was to bait and predict where he was going to teleport which actually amazing on knuckles part because its not like a fighting game where teleport characters have specific teleport zones so you can predict it, it was a narrative. So good job knuckles. But back to my point, even then the reason the knuckles fight got that far was because didn't want to kill him. The shadowfall shadow does on chaos blasts and kills the equivalant of a final boss. And he does it fairly quickly. This isnt the first time we have seen shadow seen do this, in sonic 06 where he could killed silver and took mercy on him, but he took out hundreds of those iblis demons by running past them burning so hot with chaos energy turning them to ash. There is "we have to fight" shadow and "its time to die" shadow. And if we are talking about no holding back Sonic is evil now and needs to go, teleport to him grab him by his neck teleport him to the nearest ocean let hiss ass drown. Btw, he does the first part of that in sonic boom. Its really hard to predict teleport.

Next time stop, sonic cant run faster than stopped time. No one can, he stopped time. The hell are you even talking about?

[Sparky]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

Using the Chaos Emeralds doesn't mean a character has access to all of the same abilities as another.

Chaos Spear and Chaos Blast are the result of controlling chaos in a certain way. Something we already know Sonic can do.

[Nepenthe]

"Controlling Chaos in a certain way" is a meaningless statement. A toaster controls electricity in a certain way. It doesn't mean it can play video games.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

"Controlling Chaos in a certain way" is a meaningless statement. A toaster controls electricity in a certain way. It doesn't mean it can play video games.

Dont doubt the power of something that brings the deliciousness that is toasted bread in the world.

[Indigo Rush]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

He cant run faster than stopped time. No one can, he stopped time.

Neither can Shadow

Sonic has Time Stop and Sonic Wind in SA2

They're equal 

Illuminati confirm 

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Indigo Rush said:

Neither can Shadow

Sonic has Time Stop and Sonic Wind in SA2

They're equal 

Sonic outside of sa2 giving him and amy that power for mechanics reasons doesnt have that power.

13 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Not only that but I don't think the "Ultimate Lifeform" thing is to be taken literally (and thus used as an example of Sonic's capabilities) in the same way that black people calling Bill Clinton the first black president isn't meant to be taken literally.

Also wasnt shadow calling sonic that in the bioware rpg. The game sega isnt fond of and doesnt acknowledge 

[Nepenthe]

I know nothing of Chronicles so I can't say. But regardless, Sega has said itself that it's not even a canon game so whatever happens within it is not to really be taken as evidence of anything.

[Indigo Rush]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Sonic outside of sa2 giving him and amy that power for mechanics reasons doesnt have that power

 Why not 

I mean, since we're moving the goal posts and everything 

[Kuzu]

Last I checked, Sonic cannot use Chaos Spear or Chaos Blast.

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Yes he can. We already know this, and we don't need to see him use it to know that.  Sonic has been using the Chaos Emeralds to go Super since Sonic 2, and it was clear that it was a unique thing to him even when we saw Tails and Knuckles go super, because they didn't transform like Sonic did. Shadow having Chaos Control stems from that special tie Sonic has with the Chaos Emeralds, and Chaos Spear and Chaos Blast stem from Chaos Control. 

In SA2, Shadow was the  kind of rival that has all of the Hero's abilities with the addition of a special skill he has over the hero, only for the hero to learn that skill in the end.

Like Nep said, using the chaos emeralds does not grant the user all of the same abilities, you yourself said that as Tails and Knuckles have vastly different transformations from Sonic or Shadow.

You're making a pretty common fallacy with faulty logic; all chaos related abilities are not tied to the Emeralds.

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[Wraith]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Sonic outside of sa2 giving him and amy that power for mechanics reasons doesnt have that power.

All of Shadow's powers are for mechanical reasons. The only thing separating his powers from Sonic's powers are the bullshit "it's chaos energy" handwave that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Zaysho]

3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Teleporting is instant. You cant run faster than teleportation because teleportation isn't i ran, its exist in a new part of space now. To use a more recent example, the only way knuckles stopped shadow during total eclipse was to bait and predict where he was going to teleport which actually amazing on knuckles part because its not like a fighting game where teleport characters have specific teleport zones so you can predict it, it was a narrative.

Narrative or no, it doesn't seem too out there that the guy teleporting around in a fight would go straight for his opponent's blindspot, so it doesn't seem unbelievable for Knuckles to predict where he'd turn up.

 

[Indigo Rush]

Why do I get the feeling that this topic of discussion is only about a centimeter deeper than arguing over which Ninja Turtle is the best 

Like Sonic and Shadow are fast hedgehogs with different abilities.

Furthermore, if Shadow is holding back, why did he explicitly say "I can't let you live" before his final showdown with Sonic in SA2, then proceed to... not do the whole neck-snapping thing? 

Why?

Because it's a videogame and you can't be expected to take everything so seriously. Shadow would likely disintegrate at an atomic level if he teleported. Or maybe not. Teleporting doesn't exist in a way for us to know. Well maybe it's at the speed of light! Well, Sonic has the light speed dash, so there.

Wait, that doesn't count? Well gee, what does count, then?

So forgive me if I'm not putting much thought or effort into this. 

[Celestia]

I always assumed Sonic could potentially learn how to use Chaos Spear or Blast if he wanted to, he just never bothered with it. He didn't even know Chaos Control existed until he met Shadow, but he still pulled that off, and it's arguably the most powerful of the bunch.

...Then again, I guess that's like saying any superhero who's about as strong as Superman should automatically have heat vision. XP

[Shadowlax]

11 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

 

Why not 

He doesn't have it, if that games multiplayer meant anything amy could use chaos control  (which i think would be rad)but she cant. Its like the hulklor dormmamu or dr strange fighting people in marvel 3. Or bayonetta and shulk in smash 4 the reason reason they dont rofl stomp the whole cast is because that isn't fun. Giving on character in  a speed based get to the end multiplayer a spammable time stop ability is broken as shitm so they gave it to everyone.

Also just on a narrative note, i find it an interesting dynamic. 

[Sparky]

Everyone is forgetting that Shadow is meant to be another Sonic, and Sonic in turn is another Shadow. Anyone one can do, so can the other. Sonic and Shadow both have super speed and the ability to fully harness the power of the Chaos Emeralds. Chaos Spear and Chaos Blast are just different chaos-based techniques that Shadow knows how to do because he knows how to make full use of his ability to use the Caos Emeralds' power. The only reason Sonic doesn't is because he doesn't want to. If he wanted to use Chaos Spear or Chaos Blast, he would try just he tried Chaos Control. Sonic is fully capable of using the Chaos Emerald's power to it's fullest potential, this was made explicitly clear in SA2, and it was part of the reason Shadow said Sonic is the real Ultimate Lifeform. There is no difference in power between Sonic and Shadow, AT ALL. There is only a difference in how they use their power, nothing more. Sonic simply uses the power of Chaos to empower himself and stuff, Shadow knows how to use the power of Chaos for multiple techniques, but Sonic could easily mimic what Shadow does if he wanted to. And in turn, Shadow can easily match Sonic's speed and agility, no matter how fast Sonic is going and stuff. Shadow isn't a more powerful Sonic, Shadow just knows how to do more stuff with what Sonic already has in his arsenal.

They are both 100% equally matched and pretty much completely identical. 

[Nepenthe]

You don't have to have scientific or rational backing to make a feasible argument for which characters are stronger in a given work. All you need, as with everything else in fantasy, is in-universe justification and context. Marvel films do this all the time, making characters fight and thus showing off how certain moves react to other moves for audiences to make reasonable distinctions between who is more or less powerful than others. We know how the Shield holds up to Thor's hammer. We know how the Hulk stands up to the Hulkbuster, and so on and so forth. The problem with Sonic is that we never see any of this play out either because it's relegated to gameplay where the player has to win under a restricted set of conditions, or because the shows are excessively dependent upon Sonic winning and thus there's no leeway for writers to play with different match-ups of abilities. That's why these conversations within the context of the Sonic franchise are fruitless. Not because it's fantasy, but because the winner of any given match-up is simply going to be the character that needs to win for the story to work.

Just now, Sparky said:

Everyone is forgetting that Shadow is meant to be another Sonic, and Sonic in turn is another Shadow. 

No one is "forgetting" anything. We're disagreeing with your fundamental premise that they're somehow not two distinct characters.

[Kuzu]

Everyone is forgetting that Shadow is meant to be another Sonic, and Sonic in turn is another Shadow. Anyone one can do, so can the other. Sonic and Shadow both have super speed and the ability to fully harness the power of the Chaos Emeralds. Chaos Spear and Chaos Blast are just different chaos-based techniques that Shadow knows how to do because he knows how to make full use of his ability to use the Caos Emeralds' power. The only reason Sonic doesn't is because he doesn't want to. If he wanted to use Chaos Spear or Chaos Blast, he would try just he tried Chaos Control. Sonic is fully capable of using the Chaos Emerald's power to it's fullest potential, this was made explicitly clear in SA2, and it was part of the reason Shadow said Sonic is the real Ultimate Lifeform. There is no difference in power between Sonic and Shadow, AT ALL. There is only a difference in how they use their power, nothing more. Sonic simply uses the power of Chaos to empower himself and stuff, Shadow knows how to use the power of Chaos for multiple techniques, but Sonic could easily mimic what Shadow does if he wanted to. And in turn, Shadow can easily match Sonic's speed and agility, no matter how fast Sonic is going and stuff. Shadow isn't a more powerful Sonic, Shadow just knows how to do more stuff with what Sonic already has in his arsenal.

They are both 100% equally matched and pretty much completely identical. 

You're wrong and there's clear evidence to support that, but by all means keep trying to cling to your unfounded idea that Sonic and Shadow are somehow the same exact character.

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[Sparky]

1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You're wrong and there's clear evidence to support that, but by all means keep trying to cling to your unfounded idea that Sonic and Shadow are somehow the same exact character.

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I never said they were the same character. That isn't what I'm saying at all. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

No he doesn't. The thing is yes Shadow is the ultimate lifeform and he knows it, however he also knows that Sonic is a suitable opponent so why hold back? Why would he even be a rival and want to be better than Sonic if he holds back? OF course he's gonna go full Segata Sanshiro on him.

[Sega DogTagz]

They both hold back in all situations unless the fate of the world is literally on the line. (and I'm not talking 11th hour on the line, I'm talking all the way down to 11:59:59).

I think its fair to come to that conclusion. Its happened enough in the games and comics.