Jump to content
Awoo.

Does Shadow hold back when he fights Sonic?


ShadowSJG

Recommended Posts

You're wrong and there's clear evidence to support that, but by all means keep trying to cling to your unfounded idea that Sonic and Shadow are somehow the same exact character.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I never said they were the same character. That isn't what I'm saying at all. 

You are, right now, arguing against the premise that Sonic and Shadow have distinctive abilities as characters citing that because they're "equals", they have to literally be exact mirrors of each other in terms of power sets.

In reality, it is literally impossible for them to be dead even otherwise there could never be a definitive win for either of them and both characters have prevailed over each other at least once across continuities.

And, once again, they both have abilities that are distinctive from each other. Sonic getting a new ability does not equate to Shadow gaining that same ability, and vice versa. And citing they're "equals" to support that is an inherently weak argument that follows the "telling and now showing" dichotomy.

You wanna say Sonic has all of Shadow's abilities and vice versa? Then SHOW me this being the case. Show me Sonic using Chaos Blast, show me Shadow using the Super Peel Out. If you can't show me then I am under no obligation to believe your claims outside of vague character profiles that aren't even consistent from game to game.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The issue with the debate is that information is being extrapolated everywhere in the absence of hard evidence, which isn't how arguments are justified. We have absolutely no definitions and standards for what Chaos Energy is, how characters harness it, and how their biology and talents plays a role in things. All we know for certain is that certain characters can use the Emeralds for certain things. So it is literally impossible to make an argument saying what any character can do with the Emeralds without them actually having displayed these specific abilities, at which point you're not making an argument so much as you're just reiterating canon information.

Whether or not Sonic is physically capable of using Chaos Spear isn't the issue (and it's something also unverifiable). The fact is, he has not ever used Chaos Blast and Chaos Spear, and in the absence of evidence you cannot simply make the assertion that he can "because well he used Chaos Control." Sonic can only be confirmed capable of using these abilities when he actually uses them.

  • Thumbs Up 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No need to backseat moderate. There's nothing in the topic that's been out of bounds so far.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ultimate reality of the entire debacle is that, not only are Sonic and Shadow initially portrayed as rivals (implying they're mostly equal in abilities), its further complicated with actual inconsistencies between games that make Shadow's abilities ambiguous. Some can be passed off as Shadow getting better at what he does. For instance, in SA2, he needed to work with Sonic to Chaos Control the ARK away from Earth (and it was enough to send him hurdling to his apparent death, but in Shadow's titular game, he could teleport the Black Comet with little to no issue. 

It's also implied that he needs a Chaos Emerald handy to teleport and stop time, yet in 2006 and a few other games, he uses these abilities with no Emerald in sight. Where's the line drawn? When asked, Iizuka said that Shadow absolutely needed a Chaos Emerald to use Chaos Control (and then said that the moon isn't broken anymore because it decided to rotate so we couldn't see the broken half anymore?!). 

But that's not the end of it, Sonic can use Chaos Control, too, and he's done so outside of SA2. And then... Silver can do it. Sonic supposedly has a light-speed dash which, besides being physically impossible but then again a lot of things are impossible here, doesn't occur with an explanation as to how Sonic can do it outside of wearing special shoes (SA1, SA2, 2006) .. except when he doesn't need them (Heroes, Generations, etc). While it's all for gameplay sake, if we're going to try and discuss these with any ounce of legitimacy and sparing the irony, we need to acknowledge that Shadow's abilities (Chaos Spear, Chaos Blast, etc) that Sonic hasn't done have primarily existed for gameplay purposes as well. 

Just... the short of it is that Shadow is a dark Sonic re-skin with nondescript powers that supposedly make him stronger, yet he can never defeat Sonic. It isn't because he's holding back, it isn't because Sonic is secretly Shadow's sempai (that'd be funny though), it's because Sonic Team haven't cared to think it through.

If I had to create a reason, it's because using these abilities tires Shadow out, and he would rather avoid being fatigued. Besides which, Sonic is fast, and lobbing chaos spears doesn't work, exploding doesnt work, and teleporting is something that might tire him out if he overdoes it. 

I just find it funny. Across the different universes and canons (especially Archie), Sonic's done crap that Shadow hasn't tried.

Vibrating his molecules to phase through solid metal? Sonic did it.

10.jpg

Running on a trail of the dust from his own shoes? Sonic did it.

CkH_qsQXIAAnZpR.jpg

Running from one end of the continent to the other (and back) in a matter of seconds? Sonic did it.

2070117-sonic2.jpgsonic-175-17_zpsdd9b0a4b.jpg

It doesn't really make a difference, is what I'm saying. As far as I'm concerned, the debate is moot because the defined lines of the argument aren't clear enough, and never will be. 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think these things you're bringing up really change the validity of the argument nor necessitate cynicism towards Sonic Team.

First, I don't think there's an inconsistency there with Shadow's warping abilities so much as there may be an unacknowledged distinction between a basic warp and Chaos Control. A warp is probably just him moving really quickly to another place without a conscious, egregious effect on time all DBZ-like, while with Chaos Control he is actually controlling time (to the point that one can literally time travel while using it), with the inherent side effect being that any physical travelling he does under its effects is simply going to appear as a warp to any affected persons. It's pedantic, sure, but I think it's a point worth bringing up, especially since other persons who have used the maneuver have always used Emeralds to do it. Gameplay-only abilities like Light Speed Dash are a fair point and should be left out due to inconsistency alone making them dubious, but still at the very least, Shadow has access to a basic warping maneuver wherein he can travel both short and long distances that Sonic, as far as we know, does not.

On the subject of how fights turned out, I don't think it's a case of Sonic Team not thinking it through in a context of clumsy handling. I think it's mainly that there is no real necessity to visually establish a power hierarchy because it just doesn't matter to the series as a whole. Sonic is always going to win the bigger conflict, so any situation that necessitates a win or a tie is going to be written in his favor. Therefore, things like power levels and specifics of technique are not elaborated on because there's no reason to. But this in and of itself doesn't mean logical arguments still can't be gleaned from what we definitively know about the characters. One can easily argue that Shadow can possibly beat Sonic; after all, Sonic Team was perfectly content on showing that possibility in the cut scenes of his solo game (whose lack of canon doesn't really affect his capabilities, the same as 06's nonexistence doesn't affect them). But the actual question of the topic is meaningless because there is no information from which to glean a meaningful answer. We know what Shadow and Sonic can do. But we don't know in any given fight how much effort they're putting into it, because that is irrelevant to the story.

So it's not really bad or careless storytelling so much as it is storytelling that doesn't concern itself with actively trying to answer the questions we're asking here.

  • Thumbs Up 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

 

So forgive me if I'm not putting much thought or effort into this. 

Maybe you should?

Its a fun conversation anylyzing the more technical aspects of a franchise we all like enough to join an enthusaist forms. If all my dicussion about media ended "well its a videogame/movie/ comic book who cares" one I wouldnt be in the imagination driven buisness i am now but all conversation about my favorite shit would be boring. Yeah i know video games aren't real but its fun to use what we know in our world to Parce out how it works.

 

So yes maybe you should take a bit more seriously Maybe you might have fun

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The logic is that gameplay contradicts cut scenes which contradict manuals all the time, and thus it is completely illogical to say everything- even the contradictions- is canon. There has to be some standard in place for an argument concerning character possibilities to be remotely meaningful, because honestly I'm not entertaining a weird fundamentalist vision of Sonic that can run the speed of sound but can simultaneously lose to Mario in an Olympics race when going all out.

This is really all I was trying to get at, I guess. Things aren't consistent with each-other so it's not a black-and-white issue. 

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

So yes maybe you should take a bit more seriously Maybe you might have fun

No exaggeration, I spent the last decade on this website taking it seriously, and I'm tired of it. Give me something new.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

This is really all I was trying to get at, I guess. Things aren't consistent with each-other so it's not a black-and-white issue. 

It's not a self-evident issue, but this doesn't mean anyone making an argument is just throwing shit at a wall either. If people are willing to hash out definitions and parameters for what counts, or simply just point to reasonable happenings in the games, you can make an argument in Shadow's favor.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I'll be the first to admit with a straight face that I'm not wanting to put the effort to go over and hash out what those magical parameters are, so I'll take my exit. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

This is really all I was trying to get at, I guess. Things aren't consistent with each-other so it's not a black-and-white issue. 

No exaggeration, I spent the last decade on this website taking it seriously, and I'm tired of it. Give me something new.

If you are a little tired of sonic maybe take a break its fine, i mean after all the shit he has taken us all though I more surprised more people haven't taken sonic hiatuses, I know I have taken 2. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was going to write out a long diatribe further picking at the inherent silliness of it all, but it's just not worth it. If for some reason we're all interested in continuing this argument, make another topic about it and faff about to your heart's content. I personally can't anymore and I'm a little ashamed for even entertaining it in the first place. Topic cleaning commences. Get back to power levels.

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Celestia said:

I always assumed Sonic could potentially learn how to use Chaos Spear or Blast if he wanted to, he just never bothered with it. He didn't even know Chaos Control existed until he met Shadow, but he still pulled that off, and it's arguably the most powerful of the bunch.

...Then again, I guess that's like saying any superhero who's about as strong as Superman should automatically have heat vision. XP

potentially? he was shown using it in sonic X....

 

as super sonic ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

The ultimate reality of the entire debacle is that, not only are Sonic and Shadow initially portrayed as rivals (implying they're mostly equal in abilities), its further complicated with actual inconsistencies between games that make Shadow's abilities ambiguous. Some can be passed off as Shadow getting better at what he does. For instance, in SA2, he needed to work with Sonic to Chaos Control the ARK away from Earth (and it was enough to send him hurdling to his apparent death, but in Shadow's titular game, he could teleport the Black Comet with little to no issue. 

It's also implied that he needs a Chaos Emerald handy to teleport and stop time, yet in 2006 and a few other games, he uses these abilities with no Emerald in sight. Where's the line drawn? When asked, Iizuka said that Shadow absolutely needed a Chaos Emerald to use Chaos Control (and then said that the moon isn't broken anymore because it decided to rotate so we couldn't see the broken half anymore?!). 

But that's not the end of it, Sonic can use Chaos Control, too, and he's done so outside of SA2. And then... Silver can do it. Sonic supposedly has a light-speed dash which, besides being physically impossible but then again a lot of things are impossible here, doesn't occur with an explanation as to how Sonic can do it outside of wearing special shoes (SA1, SA2, 2006) .. except when he doesn't need them (Heroes, Generations, etc). While it's all for gameplay sake, if we're going to try and discuss these with any ounce of legitimacy and sparing the irony, we need to acknowledge that Shadow's abilities (Chaos Spear, Chaos Blast, etc) that Sonic hasn't done have primarily existed for gameplay purposes as well. 

Just... the short of it is that Shadow is a dark Sonic re-skin with nondescript powers that supposedly make him stronger, yet he can never defeat Sonic. It isn't because he's holding back, it isn't because Sonic is secretly Shadow's sempai (that'd be funny though), it's because Sonic Team haven't cared to think it through.

If I had to create a reason, it's because using these abilities tires Shadow out, and he would rather avoid being fatigued. Besides which, Sonic is fast, and lobbing chaos spears doesn't work, exploding doesnt work, and teleporting is something that might tire him out if he overdoes it. 

I just find it funny. Across the different universes and canons (especially Archie), Sonic's done crap that Shadow hasn't tried.

Vibrating his molecules to phase through solid metal? Sonic did it.

10.jpg

Running on a trail of the dust from his own shoes? Sonic did it.

CkH_qsQXIAAnZpR.jpg

Running from one end of the continent to the other (and back) in a matter of seconds? Sonic did it.

2070117-sonic2.jpgsonic-175-17_zpsdd9b0a4b.jpg

It doesn't really make a difference, is what I'm saying. As far as I'm concerned, the debate is moot because the defined lines of the argument aren't clear enough, and never will be. 

Except Sonic' wasn't really supposed to have the abilities he had in Archie, to be honest. These abilities are ripped off from The Flash, because at the time Archie STH apparently either couldn't fathom that not all speedsters are the same or couldn't handle that The Flash is more powerful than Sonic.

I mean sure ALL main-character speedsters are supposed to be "the fastest speedster" I guess, but The Flash can run at the speed of light, Sonic can't, and IIRC The Flash manipulates the very nature of speed (Speed Force) in order to run fast, which is why he can do things like vibrate his molecules. Sonic's got legs.

Ok, it's arguable Sonic has chaos powers, but his ability to run seems to be pretty much muscle power.

Though I kind of agree Sonic Team havn't  particularly cared to strictly define where each characters' powers has it's limits, maybe they haven't thought it through, maybe it's supposed to be that way. After all if the characters powers are so strictly defined there's no real point in a rivalry.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Green Eyes said:

After all if the characters powers are so strictly defined there's no real point in a rivalry.

This type of thinking doesn't have anything to do with characters having a rivalry. This has more to do with how it limits the ridiculousness of the feats a character should be able to accomplish based on their skill set.

 

Abilities aren't what makes the rival. They're what makes the evil or neutral counterpart who may or may not happen to be considered a rival. Kind of like Shadow, who's like Sonic but better...because he's all black.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

He cant

Teleporting is instant. You cant run faster than teleportation because teleportation isn't i ran, its exist in a new part of space now. To use a more recent example, the only way knuckles stopped shadow during total eclipse was to bait and predict where he was going to teleport which actually amazing on knuckles part because its not like a fighting game where teleport characters have specific teleport zones so you can predict it, it was a narrative. So good job knuckles. But back to my point, even then the reason the knuckles fight got that far was because didn't want to kill him.

Knuckles didn't wanted to kill Shadow either, both of them were holding back in the fight ( afterall, none of them used their chaos  abilities against each other execpt with that one time with teleportation)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Green Eyes said:

Except Sonic' wasn't really supposed to have the abilities he had in Archie, to be honest. These abilities are ripped off from The Flash, because at the time Archie STH apparently either couldn't fathom that not all speedsters are the same or couldn't handle that The Flash is more powerful than Sonic.

Isn't that kinda like saying that no other superhero should be able to fly because superman did it first or that there should be no heroes in combat suits because Iron Man holds all the patents?

Gimme a break. They are both speedsters so they are going to do speedster related things. Runners gonna run. Gotta go fast, blah, blah, blah. Sure, phasing through walls is a speed trick Flash made popular, but absorbing popular culture in regards to bending the laws of physics isn't a crime. Its a copycat league.
 

Quote

I mean sure ALL main-character speedsters are supposed to be "the fastest speedster" I guess, but The Flash can run at the speed of light, Sonic can't, and IIRC The Flash manipulates the very nature of speed (Speed Force) in order to run fast, which is why he can do things like vibrate his molecules. Sonic's got legs.

Ok, it's arguable Sonic has chaos powers, but his ability to run seems to be pretty much muscle power.

See this is where you're falling short. Archie Sonic has ALWAYS been depicted as being more than a fancy set of legs. His super speed has historically been put to use in a bunch of different ways utilizing different parts of his body. People just tend to overlook that for some reason.

Remember this? (same issue as the dirt run lol)

whistle.jpg

 

Sonic vibrates (there is that word again) his vocal cords at super speed to make a Dragon "dog" whistle. Something "no other living being" can accomplish. Want some more? Lets dive into the way back machine for this gem. 

 

JVwc6Az.jpg

 

(That breaks the picosecond threshold btw. Light in a vacuum travels 0.3mm in a picosecond. Technically speaking, Sonic completely obliterates the speed of light with that move)

All that with no legs required. That's physic's busting speed right there. Sonic's superspeed has little to no restrictions in the comics. It never has. They never put a cap on it because it would be foolish to do so. The same has always been true about how he uses his speed. As much as he is known for running and spinning, he's had plenty of times where he's done stuff like shredding handcuffs by rotating his hands.

Its not even like that Caterkiller trick was much of a reach. It wasn't even the first time he phased through walls. Back in issue 71, he did the same thing to escape a barrier that separated fragmented zone time-space post ultimate annihilator.

 

Quote

Though I kind of agree Sonic Team havn't  particularly cared to strictly define where each characters' powers has it's limits, maybe they haven't thought it through, maybe it's supposed to be that way. After all if the characters powers are so strictly defined there's no real point in a rivalry.


Sonic Team will never define limits to its characters. Sonic will always remain as fast as he needs to be to save the day in the current situation with only a split second to spare. That's just the nature of doing what they do. Its not that they haven't thought about it, its simply a matter of creating the most entertaining product.

Archie Sonic has a bit more real estate to tell its story, so the Sonic of its world is a bit more flushed out capability wise. In a heads up comparison between Sonic and Shadow, even if you want to consider the two equal in their speed, there is no doubt that Sonic has been VASTLY more creative in what he can do with his speed. Shadow's never been one for speed tricks, when he could fall back on his overwhelming power. Its not always about what you got, but its about how you use it. Sonic can do things that would make even Shadow green with envy.

Its not hard to see why Sonic gives Shadow fits in combat. On paper, Shadow should win in a landslide, but with a deeper look we see that he lacks Sonic's raw talent. He lacks Sonic's imagination. He lacks Sonic's risk management (or lack there-of). He lacks Sonic's street wise cunning and most of all, he does not posses Sonic's sheer dumb luck.

I think Eggy hits the nail on the head here.


 i.imgur.com/7mpKvjl.jpg

 

That's the crux here. Just when you think you've got him figured out, Sonic can and will do something that will make you re-think what you know about him. Maybe he'll run faster than you've ever seen him go. Maybe he'll take a suicide dive that will uncover a gap in your defenses. Maybe he'll throw an infinity punch -- the point is when you push, he'll push back with something you'll never see coming. and it will be devastating. Enough to drive a man mad.

 

So back to the topic at hand. Does Shadow hold back.

Shadow knows better than anyone what Sonic is all about. He's been impressed by his tenacity and creativity more than once. The harder you push Sonic, the bigger the counterpunch is going to be. Perhaps Shadow keeps it in reserve not wanting to push Sonic to a level he himself can't contend with? If you don't pull on a rubber band, it'll stay limp. If you don't taunt the bull, you won't catch the horns. That sort of deal.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm  kind of saying that Sonic's powers weren't intended to be like the Flashes' so they shouldn't be, I see no reason for him to act like he utilities speed force when he doesn't, and their different powers have different implications for how they interact with their world at large.

Also "got legs" is a simplification, he also has nigh-infallible motorskills and split-second perception and decision skills,his balance is nothing to shake a stick at either. He also has chaos powers. Conversely, Sonic isn't just speedster doing speedster things, he had a defining role in the archetype itself and doesn't follow the conventions of masked-superhero-genre.

I mean I guess I don't know for sure what the nature of Sonic's powers are, but Sonic Team never gave a supernatural explanation and I find it really rather unnecessary that they do. Tails can fly because he's got two Tails, Knuckles can punch because he's got strong arms, and Sonic can run because he's got fast legs. Even there you've got room for elaboration, like the implications for their required secondary superpowers, their metabolism and whatnot, I don't see why Marvel/DC-esque stuff is necessary.

What's more, the Sonic series has already established a means of Sonic infiltrating solid objects; chaos control,or plain old breaking things, also SuperSonic would be pretty pointless if Sonic could run at the speed of light and phase through solid objects.

I'm starting to find "got legs" funny I think I've spent too long on this post.

 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sonic' speed has been shown to be beyond simple muscle power. In Generations, he transfers his speed into those moving platforms in Planet Wisp. In Sonic Battle, he uses his speed to heal at supersonic speeds. Both Omega's data on Sonic and what Sonic himself said says he can run faster than light. He can alter the flow of time. Tails said Sonic's speed FIXES time and space. Sonic is on the same level as the Flash. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The situation with platforms, or even boosting at all, is an interesting , I guess I'll concede that they're chaos powers of some description,and that chaos powers could be a stand-in for some of the weirder stuff The Flash can do, but that's also kind of where chaos emeralds come in, IMO, because we already have Sonic having established powers of chaos control for teleportation and possible time manipulation and SuperSonic for that lightspeed travel.

Sonic Battle had some weird stuff to make it fit the combat gameplay, and Colours DS; Omega didn't actually say that exactly, assuming it's canon.

I kind of figured with Generations, Sonic was redoing what had been "undone."

But yeah maybe this is kinda getting silly because fanon gonna fanon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, blade57331 said:

Knuckles didn't wanted to kill Shadow either, both of them were holding back in the fight ( afterall, none of them used their chaos  abilities against each other execpt with that one time with teleportation)

Oh im sure

Not denying that, I even gave knuckles props for predicting a teleport in a non game scenario, thats hypothetically REALLY  hard.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the canon itself is such a vague, debatable topic, then how can any sort of discussion involving what the characters can do take place? Is it to the point where we know absolutely nothing about what they're capable of, because all the evidence is debatably canon? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not so much that,it's somewhat fuzzy, if the canon made it obvious there wouldn't be as much to discuss.

But yeah, parts of the series I consider particularly absurd even for the Sonic series, something that seems to exist purely for gameplay or seem to be badly written I take with a pinch of salt. Sonic 06, Sonic Chronicles, Sonic Battle and Colours DS and whether or not rings spontaneously generate in large quantities and are somehow used as currency is up there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, blade57331 said:

Knuckles didn't wanted to kill Shadow either, both of them were holding back in the fight ( afterall, none of them used their chaos  abilities against each other execpt with that one time with teleportation)

Oh im sure

Not denying that, I even gave knuckles props for predicting a teleport in a non game scenario, thats hypothetically REALLY  hard.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.