Does Shadow hold back when he fights Sonic?

[Sparky]

Ian once said that Sonic can use Sonic Wind, he just doesn't. 

[Zaysho]

43 minutes ago, ShroomZ said:

Sorry if I was causing confusion myself, I just thought since Indigo was referencing Archie stuff, you might as well show Sonic The Comic's guns as well. 

It's fine, I can't comment on what Fleetway does in terms of Sonic's abilities (never read it) or how consistent it is with itself and the rest of the franchise (hence why I mentioned not using one-off occurrences from Archie), so I don't know how viable a comparison it makes for defining Sonic's abilities.

I just want to limit the focus and hopefully put things on track instead of treating everything Sonic's ever been shown doing in any medium as having the same weight of importance and we're no longer defining what his limits are or how those abilities match up against Shadow and how/if the latter has to hold back against him.

 

 

30 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

We can't really use anything from the game's cutscenes, there's never really any action going on that displays characters abilities. Not enough dynamic-ness...not enough showcasing. Besides that one Unleashed cutscene of course, where I'd assume Sonic was at peak condition.

We get bits and pieces. The opening from '06 is another good one, and I think there's enough cutscenes and related material scattered around we can make an educated guess of what Sonic has access to/actually uses or how he reacts or can keep up with what's going on (since it's nothing we're in control of, nor is it something subject to glitching or change).

[ShadowSJG]

15 minutes ago, Sparky said:

Ian once said that Sonic can use Sonic Wind, he just doesn't. 

When and where did he say that?

[Nepenthe]

17 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I just want to limit the focus and hopefully put things on track instead of treating everything Sonic's ever been shown doing in any medium as having the same weight of importance and we're no longer defining what his limits are or how those abilities match up against Shadow and how/if the latter has to hold back against him.

To add onto this, I think it should be pertinent to add that any arguments made should be limited to a single canon. Don't talk about how Sonic can fair against Shadow and vice versa if you're using abilities from multiple mediums. If you want to talk about Sonic and Shadow's abilities, do so within the confines of only one canon. This also goes for the input of people who work exclusively in each canon. Iizuka has nothing to say about Archie Sonic, and vice versa for Flynn with SegaSonic.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Nepenthe

[Sega DogTagz]

Fair Enough Zaysho. (vibrating his molecules totally wasn't a oneshot though). So, we'll stick to modern era stuff. Can do boss man.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Sonic's raw talent? That's bullshit? Shadow has done some incredible shit in his time in this franchise to say that he lacks any type of talent is insane. Especially if you wish to use the comics as you have done earlier in your response, because shadow in shadow falls kills the equivalent of a final boss with no chaos emeralds with one chaos blast not only is the guy talented in multiple facets, and was unstoppable that the people who tried to kill him had to give him regular employment its talented in a myriad ways, he's strong enough to hand with knuckles he's smart enough in sonic 06 to be able to repair omega who we assuredly had been destroyed for a good long time before shadow found him . He's a talented fighter that multiple descriptions of the character has described other charcters to be scared of him, sonic has this weird reverence for him that even knuckles doesn't get. To say he lacks anything regarding sonic in terms a talent is bullshit. He just isn't playful and being playful isn't being talented its getting the point and getting the job done, which is he known for. Doing anything to get the job done, and that , that is a constant in almost all of his damn character descriptions to this day. 

Also risk management? You mean that guy who will regularly sacrifice his life for the cause, the guy who put knowing about where he came from aside to murder his entire family to save the world. The guy in sonic 06 who was the only one actually getting the plot done?

What in the world are you talking about street wise cunning?like he's a hedgehog who grew up in a world that has checkerboard grass dude, he isn't cody travers, sonic is about as battle weary as in anyone. Hell if someone should be more battle weary ,it should be shadow. Considering in the normal game continuity sonic is... kind of just chilling all the time and then shit goes down, shadow works for a government organization and his job is to fuck shit up. That's literally his job, they hired him because he was fucking their shit up so hard they was like " could you please fuck shit up for us " .

And dumb luck, can I point to shadow's entire existence? Shadow is the kenny of sonic. " Oh is shadow dea.... oh oh nevermind" 

Don't get me wrong here. I never said Shadow specifically lacked talent. I never said he was dull, incapable of thinking outside of the box, or formulate winning strategies. So please don't get that impression. I would imagine that Shadow actually ranks fairly highly in each of those categories. He's got more than a few exemplars in each to back up that kind of ability.

What I am saying, it that when you put him next to Sonic, he PALES in comparison. I do believe that is more than a fair statement. That's no knock against Shadow, but its high praise for Sonic and what he's been able to do over the years. Shadow rarely has to outsmart an opponent. He rarely has to resort to unorthodox attacks or extreme risks because he is, in pretty much every situation he steps into, stronger and faster than who he is fighting. Why beat a bot by constantly hitting it to make its insides rattle apart when you can just walk up and Chaos Blast the thing? Why get creative and have robots punch themselves in the face when you can simply punch through them yourself? Where Shadow gets by with brute power, Sonic has shown the ability to use his cunning, his guile and his skills to accomplish identical feats. Shadow doesn't display the same kind of creativity in combat. His tactics rarely span far from hit things, then hit them harder. Chaos Spear, then if that doesn't work, Chaos Blast. Outside of maybe Eclipse, he hasn't really encountered an opponent that has challenged him enough to make any changes to his winning strategies. Beating Black Death wasn't a display a skill, it was pure brute force.

As for Shadow Fall, lets not go so far as to call Black Death a "Final Boss". He was not that strong. Sure slaying him in a single blast was impressive, but its not like that was Devil Doom or a beast powered by all 7 chaos emeralds. Inversely, looking at Sonic, whom HAS slain final boss caliber beasties in his regular Blue Skin. Both Ultimate Emerl and Perfect Chaos come to mind. Both powered by all 7 Chaos Emeralds. Shadow hasn't quite done anything on that level yet.

On the fear note, most of the Characters fear him because he is built like a brick wall, and he hits really really hard. There isn't much more to it than that. Its not like there is some universal renown for his knack for pulling something from nothing. He is Shadow and he is expected to lay waste to anything and everything standing in his way. What they fear is his power. That's completely different from the respect and admiration many of the villains hold for Sonic.

Shadow himself has commented that Sonic takes risks on a grand scale. We aren't talking about sacrificing yourself for the cause (that's more of a heroism thing anyway). Sonic has surprised Shadow more than once with what he is capable of doing. How he is consistently able to fight over his head and exceed expectations. Whereas Sonic can be the underdog, its harder to put Shadow in that position. Even Black Death knew he was going to die before he submitted to singular combat. Even he expected Shadow to come out victorious. Such is the mantle of the being the Ultimate. Shadow almost never has to take risks in combat. He almost never has to innovate in the middle of a fight. The same isn't true for Sonic. He'll cannonball headfirst into fights he can't win screaming "Never tell me the odds". He'll walk into what should be his grave and walk out the other side. He'll spindash into something invulnerable, and when that doesn't work, he'll find something that does. Shadow literally cant replicate those feats simply due to the nature of what he is. Shadow doesn't need any skill to F* stuff up. He just shows up and stuff starts exploding. Its not that he's transcendentally talented at it... its just that he's kind of unstoppable. Its usually childs-play for him. I give him little credit for taking a base when I already know he's impervious to gunfire.

Same goes for dumb luck. Shadow didn't die because he's kinda invulnerable (he might not even be able to die through conventional means). Sonic is a squishy so its a bit more impressive when he braves dimensional rifts on the edge of a black hole or whip out Chaos Control with fake Emeralds.

 

 

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You mean like shadow, you mean like shadow description in like every game he has been and the things he's done. 

By the way, that's interesting you use that as an example, one because I like that arc but two because it plays against your argument. Simply put, despite all this eggman still messes with sonic. He think's he can win, he thinks that even after all that his plans will win the day.

 

We wouldn't exactly have a series if the main villain didn't think he could beat the main hero.

 

 

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But all that said his murderous tendencies still very much exist, and his sacrifice part of the pie for the whole mentality is a part of it. " If the world tuns against me i'll fight like I always have" , if push comes to shove he'll do what he has to, and thats more than a lot of reoccurring characters in this franchise,

 

You say that like Sonic doesn't have that killer mentality. When push comes to shove, Sonic has shown that he will do what he has to do to save the world. Even if that means taking a life.

Ask Emerl... Oh, I guess we can't.

Ask King Arthur... Oh, I guess we can't.

Shoot, he's even got a quote to go alongside that mindset. When Merlina warns him that he'll be forever remembered as the worst of Knights if he slays King Arthur, Sonic (rather nonchalantly matter of fact) says "Guess I can't be the Hero every time". Thats a pretty loaded statement.

If your not too busy giving Shadow props for doing whatever it takes to get the job done, lets give Sonic some credit too. And he does this without the invulnerability to back it up.

[Nepenthe]

This is probably pedantic but I feel like there's an implied difference between doing what it takes to get the job done, which is basically self-defense, and then being misanthropic and either going out of your way to kill people or not caring about collateral loss of life in the pursuit of your goals.

[Sega DogTagz]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

This is probably pedantic but I feel like there's an implied difference between doing what it takes to get the job done, and then being misanthropic and either going out of your way to kill people or not caring about collateral loss of life in the pursuit of your goals.

To be fair thats an unfair generalization of Shadow. He's never actually gone "out of his way" to kill anyone to my knowledge. If your in his way, then you're dead in many cases, but those are individuals whom are clearly standing between him and his goal. People who actively choose to oppose him and/or his mission.

In fact, Shadow has been known to minimize loss of life, even back when he was a bad guy. He didn't have to save Rouge in SA2. He could have dug the emerald out of the resulting rubble and dusted her ashes off it. Even when he was bent on revenge and destroying the planet, he minimized casualties when he could.

Shadow may be more consistently ruthless, and it takes far less to push him to the decision point where he will flat out eliminate a threat, but both characters will do what is necessary when it becomes necessary.

[Nepenthe]

If someone stands in Sonic's way, like Eggman, Sonic will beat on them or find a way around them unless he literally has no choice but to kill. If someone stands in Shadow's way, "they're dead," in your own words. That's not an equivalent moral compass between the two characters.

Also, Shadow saved Rouge not because her life held any intrinsic value as a life, but because he had a sudden change of heart due to a convenient Maria flashback (and this is regardless of the fact that later on he threatened her life anyway for simply having been a plant. Sonic would not have done the same). This is ignoring the fact that he happily (literally, with a smile on his face) accepted the job of blowing the island up in the first place when it arguably wasn't necessary to getting the Emeralds, of which the casualties numerically outweighed the single life he saved. And then in ShtH, when the entire city is being devastated by aliens, he sneered at humans as a waste of time and was about to walk away until Black Doom offered him a personal proposition. Meanwhile, Sonic was already in the city trying to help out as best he could, because he values life more than Shadow does. 

On top of that, the whole thing in Black Knight where he says he sometimes has to be a bad guy has absolutely nothing to do with his stance on killing. It's about how he will simply circumvent legal law to do what's right, because law and morality are not necessarily perfectly equivalent. It's illegal to break out of prison and resist arrest, even if you are objectively innocent, but he did so in SA2 and it wasn't all that big a deal, much less any larger statement about what he'll do to an opponent.

Again, I'm not denying that Sonic will kill something if he has to. I'm saying, the fact that he's done so before under extreme circumstances doesn't actually make his moral compass equivalent with Shadow's because you have to ignore a hell of lot of context to define Sonic as having any notable "killer instinct" beyond simply a normal survival instinct and the ability to make basic ethical choices. Shadow, a lot of the time, kills or ignores life because he doesn't give a damn, not because it's always necessary.

[Sega DogTagz]

16 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

If someone stands in Sonic's way, like Eggman, Sonic will beat on them or find a way around them unless he literally has no choice but to kill. If someone stands in Shadow's way, "they're dead," in your own words. That's not an equivalent moral compass between the two characters.

But you'd agree that when it comes down to it, Sonic has that capability within him. I agree that it takes far more to push Sonic to that point, but when it becomes clear Sonic will issue that deathblow without hesitation.

If we are in a max stakes kind of situation (like the battle against Ult. Emerl) where all the marbles are on the table, Sonic looks pretty similar to Shadow in what he is willing to do to end a threat.

 

 

 

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On top of that, the whole thing in Black Knight where he says he sometimes has to be a bad guy has absolutely nothing to do with his stance on killing. It's about how he will simply circumvent legal law to do what's right, because law and morality are not necessarily perfectly equivalent. It's illegal to break out of prison and resist arrest, even if you are objectively innocent, but he did so in SA2 and it wasn't all that big a deal, much less any larger statement about what he'll do to an opponent.

Again, I'm not denying that Sonic will kill something if he has to. I'm saying, the fact that he's done so before under extreme circumstances doesn't actually make his moral compass equivalent with Shadow's because you have to ignore a hell of lot of context to define Sonic as having any notable "killer instinct" beyond simply a normal survival instinct and the ability to make basic ethical choices. Shadow, a lot of the time, kills or ignores life because he doesn't give a damn, not because it's always necessary.

That's kind of an iffy subject with me. Shadow has always been a character that is driven by his goals. He's always been defined as a character that does what he does in pursuit of said goals. His actions have always been dictated in pursuit of a larger objective. He's a weapon. Give him a target, a destination or a task and he gets the job done.

At that point in time he was a shell. No mission. No endgame. As soon as the events of that game begin to unfold, and Shadow regains a sense of purpose through the acquisition of a mission, then we see that attitude immediately change. Depending on which path you take, he plays a much more active role in either saving lives, or assisting his brethren in glorious conquest. Once he has direction, that passive mentality instantly goes away.

With purpose in hand, we see that Shadow more often than not cares about saving as many as possible, in both the Flynn era comics and the games. His compass is faster to go aggro than Sonic's but its not like he's a bloodthirsty monster who doesn't care who lives or dies either. That mentality never got traction outside of that opening to Shth.

[Sparky]

Sonic and Shadow are equals, proven by Omega, but they have different ways of doing things.

[Nepenthe]

15 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

But you'd agree that when it comes down to it, Sonic has that capability within him. I agree that it takes far more to push Sonic to that point, but when it becomes clear Sonic will issue that deathblow without hesitation.

The thing is, this isn't a noteworthy point of comparison between the two characters, because it's a decision that 99.99999% of the cast would make when faced with such a scenario, hence why Sega handily allows Sonic to do it but won't- say- let him wield a hand gun. Eggman would make that same exact call. Cream would make it. Big would make it. Froggy would make it. A Chao would make it. Hatsun the pigeon would make it. Literally almost no one is going to let the world or universe die at the expense of a single entity, especially if that entity is a monster or a robot. This isn't a meaningful designation of a "killer instinct." It's sheer statistics and desiring to survive; a display of self-defense over an active desire to harm beyond what is necessary. It says nothing meaningful about the views of life that the characters engaged in the decision actually have.

Also, I'm not saying that Shadow is a bloodthirsty monster who doesn't really care at all. He will, more often than not, do the right thing for the sake of the right thing. I'm saying that your point of comparing him with Sonic is pretty tortured because you're using a situation that isn't all that tough to make from any sort of ethical perspective, and going further to use it in order to say that "Sonic has the same killer instinct as Shadow." He does not, and we know he does not simply because he has gone to much father lengths than Shadow has done to protect life.

[Sega DogTagz]

I get where your coming from, I just don't agree with it.

As easy as it is to make the call to take a life or a few lives in order to save everyone, its not as black and while as you're leaving. While I would expect Tails to "pull the trigger" and do what needs to be done, I do also expect Tails to lament his current situation while doing so. I expect him to cry or regret his actions as he is doing them. To bemoan what it has come down to (for lack of a better explanation, see Sonic X).

I don't see that same inhibition in either Sonic or Shadow. When they have to make the big decision, and "pull the trigger" they just do it. Sonic didn't hesitate in wiping out his friend when it became clear that he had to die. He did the deed and worried about how he felt about it after it was over.

 

I guess it may just be my personal opinion, but I feel that any other main character in the series... save for maybe Eggman and of course Metal, would hesitate or at least blink when placed in Sonic or Shadow's shoes.

[Nepenthe]

Tails bemoaned the decision in X (not the games) because he had to pull the trigger against someone he cares about. That is a completely different context than pulling the trigger against something that is indecisively evil/an unflinching threat which you have no personal connection with. It's also a similar attitude that Sonic displayed in Colors, when merely having Tails brainwashed into a simple fight made him try to get around him, hesitate about physical force, and try to talk sense into him, so to say that Sonic doesn't share a similar empathy is incorrect.

But these emotionally-driven, ethically-ambiguous scenarios aren't the scenarios the team is usually faced with in the games anyway. They are indeed mostly with black-and-white scenarios of good and evil-- kill the single monster/robot/irredeemable bad guy in order to save the entire world/universe. This is not a hard decision to make considering the cast makes it all the time, only hesitating when someone says "Hey, this guy isn't actually all bad; spare them!" (The Chaos/Gamma fights in SA1; From Tails' perspective, he was perfectly willing to go along with destroying something that was deemed a threat.)

[Shadowlax]

Can i say something

How is shadow not taking risks not fighting intelligently.

Maybe the reasons shown often trying to mitigate fighting, is because hes fighting in intelegently.Maybe he often doesnt take risks because hes analyzed the situation.

But that said your are still wrong because he does, that same shadow fall comic shadow explodes the base amd teleports through miles of space to get to the ship, rouge herself worried sick villian outsmarted and killed and risk taken to get the job done. You keep saying shadow doesnt take risks or outsmarts his opponents where his existance in this franchise started with him tricking eggman and and risking his life. Just because you say something doesnt make it true and you are ignoring shadows achievements to suggest that he is dumb or something but that beyond not true practically or in the general intelligence department.

Lastly even if shadow was dumb, the reason shadow has the ability to over opponents is because hes powerful. And in the conversation involving whether he holds back or not. Thats sort of the point here. Like shadow in situations fighting sonic with a chaos emerald has actively chosen not to use chaos control. Sonic cant outrun the world. And it doesnt take charge time, that is litterally a move shadow could use to say break his legs or a number of horrifying or murdery things in that period of time.

That is litterally a move that is an example of the question at hand. You cant put run time stop, you have to predict this going to happen. And get the fight away from chaos emeralds.

And not to mention the entire concept of his inhibitor rings is risk management and fighting smart. Like you keep trying to make sonic this risky fast on their feet guy , but thats most people in this franchise, their heroes. You cant give sonic specific credit for something everyone does and actively demonstrates when fighting bosses much bigger than they are. And what makes your argument weirder is that the risk taking and cunning you are trying to boast sonic with is so associated with shadow multiple versions of that characters descriptions

Like serious wat? Wat?

[StaticMania]

Just now, Shadowlax said:

Can i say something

How is shadow not taking risks not fighting intelligently.

Nobody said this, mang.

 

What was said is, Shadow doesn't need to fight smart because he can brute force his way to beating an opponent through his power alone. This does not imply that Shadow doesn't take risk, nor does it imply that Shadow is dumb.

[Sega DogTagz]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Can i say something

How is shadow not taking risks not fighting intelligently.

Maybe the reasons shown often trying to mitigate fighting, is because hes fighting in intelegently.Maybe he often doesnt take risks because hes analyzed the situation.

But that said your are still wrong because he does, that same shadow fall comic shadow explodes the base amd teleports through miles of space to get to the ship, rouge herself worried sick villian outsmarted and killed and risk taken to get the job done. You keep saying shadow doesnt take risks or outsmarts his opponents where his existance in this franchise started with him tricking eggman and and risking his life. Just because you say something doesnt make it true and you are ignoring shadows achievements to suggest that he is dumb or something but that beyond not true practically or in the general intelligence department.

Lastly even if shadow was dumb, the reason shadow has the ability to over opponents is because hes powerful. And in the conversation involving whether he holds back or not. Thats sort of the point here. Like shadow in situations fighting sonic with a chaos emerald has actively chosen not to use chaos control. Sonic cant outrun the world. And it doesnt take charge time, that is litterally a move shadow could use to say break his legs or a number of horrifying or murdery things in that period of time.

That is litterally a move that is an example of the question at hand. You cant put run time stop, you have to predict this going to happen. And get the fight away from chaos emeralds.

And not to mention the entire concept of his inhibitor rings is risk management and fighting smart. Like you keep trying to make sonic this risky fast on their feet guy , but thats most people in this franchise, their heroes. You cant give sonic specific credit for something everyone does and actively demonstrates when fighting bosses much bigger than they are. And what makes your argument weirder is that the risk taking and cunning you are trying to boast sonic with is so associated with shadow multiple versions of that characters descriptions

Like serious wat? Wat?

 

StaticMania beat me to it. It looks like your just taking offense to all my points rather than actually listening to what I'm saying. No one ever called Shadow unintelligent. No one ever said he never took risks. I'm simply pointing out that while Shadow has all these qualities, they are never presented in a way that is anywhere as over the top or significant as his blue doppelganger. Mainly because Shadow's status as a tank makes it such that he is never required to do so in the first place.

Shadow doesn't have to overwhelm you with cunning strategy and off the cuff maneuvers. There is no need for him to even try when he can  just steamroll you into submission. Thats why in the grand scheme of things, Sonic has had far many more opportunities to prove his grit. To show how he can win in different ways. Using his head, his feet, his fists. He'll outsmart opponents he can't out punch. Shadow doesn't because he can out punch more or less everyone. (Which on a side note, is why I think Eclipse has so much potential).

Using the bombs to add to his teleportation range was a smart move, but ultimately it wasn't one that was made during combat, so its not exactly applicable here. The same goes for using Eggman to achieve his goals. We know he can be crafty, that's not the discussion here.

 

In a head to head contest with Sonic, you're going to have to give Sonic the nod in all these attributes. He's done more with less. He's been the underdog and still won. Shadow is almost never an underdog, so we simply can not give him the same kind of credit.

 

 

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

 

 

 

Your argument is suggesting people in the world some how stop existing when they aren't seen. And that's isn't true, when shadow is seen which isn't often nowaday's he handles bosses like everyone else, outhinking larger bosses and defeating. And maybe if shadow's cunning ruthlessness and sacrificial nature are constantly mentioned maybe those are defining parts of his character, and maybe those things make him different than sonic. As sega descriptions to do , they mention things that make the character... different. 

This argument is like " well you see sonic do strong stuff more than knuckles so he's stronger" , the reason you see that more is because he's the main character, sonic breaking through metal takes some strength momentum or whatever you see that more because he's the main guy, not because he's the strongest. The reason you see sonic doing all those things more is because shadow isn't around that often. That doesn't take those traits away from him, if they keep mentioning them specifically " he's going to do anything to get the job done " which in itself implies... " creative decisions" whether tactical or deadly maybe those are things that make... shadow shadow. And it feels unfair to take those away because you don'ts see him as much. 

[StaticMania]

Just now, Shadowlax said:

Because as mentioned, many of his character descriptions mention excplicitly using both to the degree in which its in a lot of his character descriptions. His cunning, ruthlessness  and sacrifical nature are meantioned several times, and not by like comic book but by official game stuff. Like the most official, they are defining parts of who he is. So the argument that sonic somehow magically just has more of it doesnt make sense because the things are defining parts of who he is.

We're talking purely about how Shadow deals with combat here, not about what he does in order to complete his own mission objectives.

 

Just now, Shadowlax said:

Also the reason you see sonic show his grit more is because you play as him more and most recently only him. You dont stops fighting when sonic isnt around do you?  But when he is fighting big bosses like sonic defeating in whatever way proves efficient doesn't over power all foes alot of his fights are analyzing weakness then acting. Thats kind of what most of the boss fights in this series are.

Off screen happenings are irrelevant. Also...no, most of the boss fights in are not analyzing weaknesses to win. They're attack the boss when vulnerable or keep attacking the boss and occasionally dodge. None of the bosses Shadow's ever faced required any strategy, especially in his own game where it was all about just beating down the boss.

[Shadowlax]

19 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

We're talking purely about how Shadow deals with combat here, not about what he does in order to complete his own mission objectives.

These are usually one in the same.

19 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

 

Off screen happenings are irrelevant.

When the argument became sonic show's more " whatever" it stopped being that. Sonic has shown more than hypothetically everyone because he's the main character, that doesn't stop the characters defining traits... from being defining traits. It is we are to assume, a world. These characters exist, and if the people who make this media keep bothering to mention it this is obviously a constant. We are to assume it is apart of who he is, whether we see it or not. 

Because if this is what the argument is going to end up as, sonic is the main character, so he's the super best strongest ever, because we see him all the time. 

I'm done and out. 

[Sparky]

The idea that Shadow is insanely powerful and Sonic is a weaker underdog needs to stop, because it is an inaccurate misconception. Sonic and Shadow are, and always have been, equals. This conversation happens in Sonic Colors DS, after Omega asks Shadow why he lets Sonic take care of things, and Shadow says he'd rather leave the running around to Sonic (and Tails): 
"Omega: Unable to process. According to data, your ability equals Sonic's.
Shadow: That just goes to show that data won't tell you everything. 
Omega: Does not compute..."
This conversation seems to coincide with Shadow's statement in Sonic Adventure 2, during the FinalHazard: "Hahaha, Sonic! I think I've discovered what the Ultimate Lifeform is ...it might be you!" But the point is, Sonic and Shadow's abilities are EQUAL, PERFECTLY MATCHED. Same Speed and Agility, Same Power and Strength, Same ability to harness the power of the Chaos Emeralds, etc.

In Sonic Generations, the fact that they are equally matched is the reason the battle requires you to collect energy cores to become more powerful. The battle makes it clear Shadow isn't any more powerful than Sonic just because he uses Chaos Powers. The same energy that Shadow uses to shoot those Chaos Spears is the same energy Sonic uses to perform a more powerful Boost. They share the same abilities, they just use them differently. Sonic gets a Chaos Emerald, and uses it's energies to amp his physical condition. Shadow gets a Chaos Emerald, and controls it's energies to perfom a variety of techniques. Sonic can use Chaos Control if he wanted to, he just doesn't. 

The ONLY difference in their abilities is that Sonic does not need inhibitors. Let me reiterate that, they are both equally powerful and share the exact same abilities, but Sonic doesn't need inhibitors. Shadow needs to wear inhibitors to hold back his power, or he'll tire out or whatever. Sonic, on the other hand, is always fine no matter how much power he's using. He was able to defeat Ultimate Emerl easily in less than 30 seconds without breaking a sweat, despite being beaten alongside Shadow by Emerl earlier. When Super Sonic and Super Shadow fought the FinalHazard, Super Shadow was having trouble maintaining his super state and was in danger of "disappearing", whereas Super Sonic was completely fine and was actually the one warning Shadow. When they used a combined Chaos Control to set the ARK back in orbit, Super Shadow fell down to the planet and could have died while Super Sonic was able to go back to the ARK. From this, it's easy to infer that, despite the two of them being equal in ability and stuff, Sonic is more inline with his abilities and the Chaos Emeralds' power and stuff or something, unlike Shadow who is in danger when he uses too much power. This one difference between them is what makes Sonic superior to Shadow. It is this one difference between them that made Shadow realize that Sonic is the real "Ultimate Lifeform". 

Sonic and Shadow are equal in all abilities, they are both very powerful, but only Sonic can actually handle all that power without a problem. Shadow can't handle it.

Shadow is highly skilled in combat, and highly skilled in using his abilities for combat, especially the power of chaos, the "Ultimate Power". He is a living weapon that pursues his goals through any means necessary. 

Sonic lives a carefree life of speed and adventure, and all of his skills come from having fun and stopping Eggman's plans. He considers himself to be just a guy that loves adventure. 

The two hedgehogs are the spitting image of one another, and share their speed and abilities. Both are strongly connected to the power of the Chaos Emeralds. But at the end of the day, it's Sonic that can truly handle the power he holds, not Shadow.

So no, Shadow does not hold back when he fights Sonic. 

[StaticMania]

Just now, Shadowlax said:

When the argument came sonic show's more " whatever" it stopped being that sonic has shown more than hypothetically everyone because he's the main character, that doesn't stop the characters defining traits... from being defining traits. It is we are to assume a world, these characters exist, and if the people who make this media keep bothering to mention it this is obviously a constant. We are to assume it is apart of who he is, whether we see it or not. 

It doesn't matter how much we "see" Sonic or any of the characters. What matters is whether or not they actually show these "defining traits" on-screen, because just saying something is a thing won't mean much if we never see it displayed even once. Seeing is believing, you know that junk.

[Sparky]

8 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

It doesn't matter how much we "see" Sonic or any of the characters. What matters is whether or not they actually show these "defining traits" on-screen, because just saying something is a thing won't mean much if we never see it displayed even once. Seeing is believing, you know that junk.

Seeing isn't believing. Believing allows you to see.

[Shadowlax]

29 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

It doesn't matter how much we "see" Sonic or any of the characters. What matters is whether or not they actually show these "defining traits" on-screen, because just saying something is a thing won't mean much if we never see it displayed even once. Seeing is believing, you know that junk.

i fundamentally disagree with you in this case because i believe this leads to " well you see sonic the most so he's the best at everything " . So i'm going to go , assume you won the argument. 

[Nepenthe]

Static's argument is not a matter of degrees. It's simply a matter of whether or not any individual instance of an event correlates with a given hypothesis or not. Peter would only be smarter than Pym if he did some feat that proved a greater intelligence, such as solving a problem he couldn't. However, in terms of Sonic being more clever than Shadow, I'm not sure how that's actually been determined in the games when most of the actual battle issues they face are solved the exact same way- hit the weakspot until it's dead.

16 minutes ago, Sparky said:

Seeing isn't believing. Believing allows you to see.

This is not how science and burden of proof works.

[StaticMania]

Just now, Shadowlax said:

Sonic is best at everything because you play as him the most and see him the most, done , lets get dinner. 

Good grief!

 

This isn't about how much more Sonic shows off that he can be a quick thinker in combat than Shadow, the point is that if Shadow never once shows that he is also reflexive quick thinker like his bio says (apparently?) than it doesn't matter because there's nothing to compare, there are no examples to pull from. It's entirely useless info until we see it happen at least once.