Does Shadow hold back when he fights Sonic?

[Sparky]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

Good grief!

 

This isn't about how much more Sonic shows off that he can be a quick thinker in combat than Shadow, the point is that if Shadow never once shows that he is also reflexive quick thinker like his bio says (apparently?) than it doesn't matter because there's nothing to compare, there are no examples to pull from. It's entirely useless info until we see it happen at least once.

We know for a fact that Shadow is a reflexive quick thinker. All speedsters need to be.

[StaticMania]

Just now, Sparky said:

We know for a fact that Shadow is a reflexive quick thinker. All speedsters need to be.

Having good reflexes shouldn't necessarily come with being smarter, that just ended up being apart of the speedster skill set for some reason

[Sparky]

4 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Having good reflexes shouldn't necessarily come with being smarter, that just ended up being apart of the speedster skill set for some reason

Speedsters are also required to have a faster perception and faster thought process.

[Nepenthe]

58 minutes ago, Sparky said:

Sonic and Shadow are, and always have been, equals.

Being someone's equal does not inherently mean having no discernible difference in every single physical ability and attribute.

Quote

This conversation happens in Sonic Colors DS, after Omega asks Shadow why he lets Sonic take care of things, and Shadow says he'd rather leave the running around to Sonic (and Tails): 
"Omega: Unable to process. According to data, your ability equals Sonic's.
Shadow: That just goes to show that data won't tell you everything. 
Omega: Does not compute..."

Ignoring DS's arguable canon, which ability is Omega even talking about? Simply being fast?

Quote

This conversation seems to coincide with Shadow's statement in Sonic Adventure 2, during the FinalHazard: "Hahaha, Sonic! I think I've discovered what the Ultimate Lifeform is ...it might be you!" 

You have yet to prove why this statement is meant to be taken literally and not figuratively as a sign of respect.

Quote

The same energy that Shadow uses to shoot those Chaos Spears is the same energy Sonic uses to perform a more powerful Boost. 

You have also yet to prove where and when it says that Sonic uses Chaos Energy to run fast or boost.

Quote

The ONLY difference in their abilities is that Sonic does not need inhibitors. Let me reiterate that, they are both equally powerful and share the exact same abilities, but Sonic doesn't need inhibitors. Shadow needs to wear inhibitors to hold back his power, or he'll tire out or whatever. Sonic, on the other hand, is always fine no matter how much power he's using. He was able to defeat Ultimate Emerl easily in less than 30 seconds without breaking a sweat, despite being beaten alongside Shadow by Emerl earlier. When Super Sonic and Super Shadow fought the FinalHazard, Super Shadow was having trouble maintaining his super state and was in danger of "disappearing", whereas Super Sonic was completely fine and was actually the one warning Shadow. When they used a combined Chaos Control to set the ARK back in orbit, Super Shadow fell down to the planet and could have died while Super Sonic was able to go back to the ARK. From this, it's easy to infer that, despite the two of them being equal in ability and stuff, Sonic is more inline with his abilities and the Chaos Emeralds' power and stuff or something, unlike Shadow who is in danger when he uses too much power. This one difference between them is what makes Sonic superior to Shadow. It is this one difference between them that made Shadow realize that Sonic is the real "Ultimate Lifeform". 

Sonic is not always fine when in his Super State. He tires himself out in Unleashed for no discernible reason regardless of your ring count, despite the fact that apparently under your viewpoint he can harness the infinite power of the Chaos Emeralds with no side effects. On the other hand, Shadow in his Super State is able to Chaos Control a comet back into space on his own with no side effects, effectively pulling more weight than he did helping Sonic do the same with the ARK despite the latter being bigger in size. He also is able to turn Super in 06 with no side effects as well, and taking off his inhibitors in the same game shows no side effects either in the cut scene right after he dispatched of Mephiles. 

[Sparky]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Being someone's equal does not inherently mean having no discernible difference in every single physical ability and attribute.

Ignoring DS's arguable canon, which ability is Omega even talking about? Simply being fast?

You have yet to prove why this statement is meant to be taken literally and not figuratively as a sign of respect.

You have also yet to prove where and when it says that Sonic uses Chaos Energy to run fast or boost.

Sonic is not always fine when in his Super State. He tires himself out in Unleashed for no discernible reason regardless of your ring count, despite the fact that apparently under your viewpoint he can harness the infinite power of the Chaos Emeralds with no side effects. On the other hand, Shadow in his Super State is able to Chaos Control a comet back into space on his own with no side effects, effectively pulling more weight than he did helping Sonic do the same with the ARK despite the latter being bigger in size. He also is able to turn Super in 06 with no side effects as well, and taking off his inhibitors in the same game shows no side effects either in the cut scene right after he dispatched of Mephiles. 

Sonic and Shadow have always been referred to as that kind of equal.

From what the entire conversation implies, Omega was referring  to their abilities in general.

The entire game, from at least the second fight between them, Shadow is wondering what Sonic is and can tell he isn't just a regular hedgehog. And that final boss fight, Sonic was handling his super form fine, and was warning Shadow about how he (Shadow) was not. Shadow appears to have gotten a better handle on his super form in later games, but that still doesn't change the fact that Sonic had a better handle on it even back in Sonic 2 where he wasn't in control of the transformation.

The energy I was referring to was the Energy Cores. Shadow used the Energy Cores for Chaos Spears, Sonic used the Energy Cores to do a stronger Sonic Boost.

We didn't see if any side effects happened in '06 because all we see is him taking them off, destroying all the Mephiles clones, scene end, and then we cut back to him putting them on. Whether he was tired or not was unclear because we weren't shown anything between him starting to take out the clones and him putting his limiters back on.

 

[Nepenthe]

They have been referred to as looking alike, being rivals, being matches for each other, and other statements that compare the two as being physically similar or competitive. But there has never been a source saying "Sonic and Shadow have exactly the same abilities as one another and there is absolutely no difference between them," mainly because it would conflict with Sega's insistent narrative that Sonic is undoubtedly "the fastest hedgehog on Earth," a title which is noted in the same generalized sources that describe Shadow's character as well such as SA2 and ShtH's game manuals. Sonic cannot be the fastest if Shadow is the exact same speed as him. Literally, these things cannot be true at the same time.

You're moving the goalposts as well on the Super form, as well as ignoring the fact that one of the most recent canon displays of the Super form had Sonic tired out and fell out of it. For an argument that states that Sonic is highly versed in using the form more than Shadow is, it seems weird that they're one-for-one in terms of being able to sustain it properly.

The Energy cores aren't confirmed to be Chaos Energy, nor even existent in a canon sense.

Also, you can't admit it's unclear whether or not Shadow was tired from using the inhibitors while not admitting that this means your argument isn't supported. Either we have proof of the side effects in the games or we don't. 

[Sparky]

4 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

They have been referred to as looking alike, being rivals, being matches for each other, and other statements that compare the two as being competitive. But there has never been a source saying "Sonic and Shadow have exactly the same abilities as one another and there is absolutely no difference between them," mainly because it would conflict with Sega's insistent narrative that Sonic is undoubtedly "the fastest hedgehog on Earth," a title which is noted in the same generalized sources that describe Shadow's character as well such as SA2 and ShtH's game manuals. Sonic cannot be the fastest if Shadow is the exact same speed as him. Literally, these things cannot be true at the same time.

You're moving the goalposts as well on the Super form, as well as ignoring the fact that one of the most recent canon displays of the Super form had Sonic tired out and fell out of it. For an argument that states that Sonic is highly versed in using the form more than Shadow is, it seems weird that they're one-for-one in terms of being able to sustain it properly.

The Energy cores aren't confirmed to be Chaos Energy, nor even existent in a canon sense.

Also, you can't admit it's unclear whether or not Shadow was tired from using the inhibitors while not admitting that this means your argument isn't supported. Either we have proof of the side effects in the games or we don't. 

Why can't those things be true at the same time? Sonic being the fastest and Shadow being equal in speed does not contradict each other at all. I don't see a problem.

That's just Sonic tiring out from overexertion or something, which is a testament to just how much effort or whatever Sonic was putting in during that event. Shadow was tiring out while putting in the same effort as Sonic in SA2.

I never said the Energy Cores were Chaos Energy. I just said Shadow uses them to enhance his Chaos Spears, Sonic uses them to enhance the Sonic Boost. 

Shadow's inhibitors came from other media, especially Sonic X (which Sonic Team worked on or something, from what I remember) which always show him tiring out after a certain amount of time when he has them off. Whenever he was shown putting them back on after a short amount of time, no fatigue was shown. The fact the Inhibitors exist in Sonic '06 is evidence enough for the side effects as well, whether they were seen or not. 

[Nepenthe]

Why can't they be true at the same time? Because the English language? Fastest is a comparative adjective, meaning something is the fastest of all of the things being compared. You cannot say that something is the fastest if another thing is also exactly as fast as that thing. You would have to designate that Sonic is "one of the fastest hedgehogs" for your question to make any remote amount of sense, which Sega has never done. They say, undisputed, that Sonic is the fastest.

It's not a testament to anything. He had help from an actual God who was putting in significantly more physical effort and energy in fighting while Sonic either served as a distraction or did his normal routine of running into things, mainly because both he and Dark Gaia had been woken up early and thus weren't really at full strength. There is nothing Sonic did in Unleashed that would point to the fight being any more strenuous than any others. On top of that, this still contradicts your argument that Sonic is always fine no matter how much power he's using. Either he is always fine or he is susceptible to the same issues that Shadow is. You can't argue both.

And dude, your argument this entire time has been that Sonic and Shadow both use Chaos Energy exactly the same way, and your proof of this is pointing to something that isn't even confirmed to be Chaos Energy (nor really confirmed to exist in Gens, especially since the fight is completely different from the previous canon incarnation). And on top of that, the example ironically shows them using the Energy Cores in different ways! Sonic using it to speed up while Shadow uses it to use a specific attack. This isn't using them in the same way!

Other media has no bearing on what actually happens in the games. In other media Sonic's Super form makes him crazy and homicidal, but I've not yet seen Sega actually endorse Sonic turning into a killer maniac in canon every time he powers up.

[Sparky]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Why can't they be true at the same time? Because the English language? Fastest is a comparative adjective, meaning something is the fastest of all of the things being compared. You cannot say that something is the fastest if another thing is also exactly as fast as that thing. You would have to designate that Sonic is "one of the fastest hedgehogs" for your question to make any remote amount of sense, which Sega has never done. They say, undisputed, that Sonic is the fastest.

It's not a testament to anything. He had help from an actual God who was putting in significantly more physical effort and energy in fighting while Sonic simply served as a distraction, mainly because both he and Dark Gaia had been woken up early and thus weren't really at full strength. There is nothing Sonic did in Unleashed that would point to the fight being any more strenuous than any others. On top of that, this still contradicts your argument that Sonic is always fine no matter how much power he's using. Either he is always fine or he is susceptible to the same issues that Shadow is, so which is it?

And dude, your entire argument this entire time has been that Sonic and Shadow both use Chaos Energy exactly the same way, and your proof of this is pointing to something that isn't even confirmed to be Chaos Energy. And on top of that, the example ironically shows them using the Energy Cores in different ways! Sonic using it to speed up while Shadow uses it to use a specific attack. This isn't the same thing!

Other media has no bearing on what actually happens in the games. In other media Sonic's Super form makes him crazy and homicidal, but I've not yet seen Sega actually endorse Sonic turning into a killer maniac in canon every time he powers up.

The Flash is always "The Fastest Man Alive" even though Reverse-Flash/Professor Zoom is always just as fast, if not "faster". 

It doesn't contradict my argument at all. Super Sonic is always fine in every other situation he's in. That was literally the only time I can recall that Sonic fought to the point of exhaustion. My point was, Shadow couldn't handle his first Super transformation as well as Sonic handled his. 

Sonic and Shadow don't use Chaos Energy the same way. I never said that. What I have said is that they both have the same ability to harness that power, but they use their abilities differently. Sonic never really taps into their power unless he wants to go Super, Shadow controls their power for Chaos Control, Chaos Spear, etc.

The "other media" in question is Sonic X and the Archie Comics. The former had Sonic Team involved in the development and stuff, and in the latter Ian Flynn pays close attention to what the game canon says. 

[Nepenthe]

Okay, you're being disingenuous and blatantly changing your argument to weasel out of admitting any fault with your logic. A moniker is not the same thing as an objective observation of ability which is what this entire argument has been based on and what your initial engagement was based on (Are Sonic and Shadow perfectly equivalent in every given ability or not?) Even taking into account that this is simply a popular moniker for Sonic sometimes, this designation isn't consistent as the statement has been used without any grammatical indication of a title before, meaning it is instead referring to his actual physical capabilities, because English. This is also ignoring his speed has been considered "second to none" in ShtH's manual, which is an idiom meaning "the best."

It does contradict your argument because you said Sonic is always fine in his Super State while Shadow is not. I gave you an example of Sonic not being fine, while also noting that Shadow has not had an incident since SA2, meaning they're literally one for one in terms of handling their Super states. You can't keep waving this off and expect your argument to actually carry any weight. Either Sonic is always fine and thus Unleashed is lying somehow, or you were wrong.

Lots of people and machines use the Chaos Emeralds for their different abilities. This isn't an indication that Knuckles or Chaos or the Eclipse Cannon have the same exact physical capabilities as Sonic does. Now you're making a completely meaningless distinction between the two characters that doesn't support your argument in any sense.

Who was involved in Archie and X has absolutely no bearing on the Super Sonic example. The fact is, Sega has been involved in licensing every official alternate continuity, meaning StC is as official as X and Archie are regardless. The point is that this doesn't mean all of the rules in each canon work the same way, unless you're now willing to argue that not only is gameplay perfectly canon to the game's stories, but Archie and X are as well (along with StC, AoStH, SatAM, the OVA, the Boom subfranchise, the novels, the stage show, and everything else Sega has put Sonic's mug on), which would be absolutely fucking ludicrous in its logic and I think you know that as well.

[Sparky]

In Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow was in danger of "disappearing" and stuff. It was made clear that he was having trouble handling the power and was overexerting himself, burning through his energy and having trouble maintaining his super state. "Shadow! Continuous use of your super form will cause you to disappear! Get back to the Colony!" 

In Sonic Unleashed, There wasn't any verbal indication that Sonic was experiencing that same danger. In my opinion, I think he fainted because he's been awake and active for several days, probably weeks, straight without rest (other than fainting or whatever after having the Werehog sucked out of him). After rewatching that boss battle, it didn't really look like Sonic was overexerting himself more than usual after all, so he was probably just tired after such a long adventure. It's a fact that Sonic has a lot of stamina (being a speedster and all...), but it isn't infinite. 

Shadow sharing Sonic's speed and agility DOES NOT contradict Sonic's title of being the fastest. There is no contradiction. Sonic's the fastest there is, and Shadow is equal in speed. That isn't a problem. Sonic's title means no one is faster than him, it doesn't mean Shadow can't be the exact same speed.

 

Certain characters in this franchise have abilities that are directly proportional to Sonic's, because of who and what they are meant to be and the role they are meant to fill. Tails can fly nearly as fast as Sonic can run, Knuckles is as strong as Sonic is fast, and Shadow is the spitting image of Sonic and shares his speed and agility. It doesn't matter how many contradictions there are between gameplay and story and the manuals and whatever else, THIS does not change. Shadow is always meant to pretty much be a dark-incarnation of Sonic. 

[Nepenthe]

Nothing you're saying is addressing my rebuttals.

It doesn't matter how Shadow did his first time or whether or not Sonic was tired. The fact of the matter is, you said Sonic is "always" fine in his Super State. The word "always" means "at all times." I showed an example that contradicted this. This either means Unleashed is wrong or you are. Either explain to me how Unleashed is wrong, or just admit your assertion was wrong.

Saying "there's no contradiction" doesn't mean anything either. Something literally cannot be the fastest if something else is equal to it in speed in agility. If you have two cars that both go 1000.00 miles per hour, with the same exact acceleration, handling, braking, torque, and other mechanical abilities, then objectively neither car is the fastest car in the world. Simply saying "No, one car is actually the fastest" is just delusional at that point.

And if you're not going to address any contradictions and just stubbornly stick to your opinions regardless of any counter evidence, contradictions, or logical faults that people are pointing out to you, just understand that you're not actually debating; you're just shoving your opinion down people's throat. At which point, there's no actual need to continue discussion and spam up the thread.

[Indigo Rush]

7 hours ago, Sparky said:

Shadow sharing Sonic's speed and agility DOES NOT contradict Sonic's title of being the fastest. There is no contradiction. Sonic's the fastest there is, and Shadow is equal in speed. That isn't a problem. Sonic's title means no one is faster than him, it doesn't mean Shadow can't be the exact same speed.

Well, you've officially left me speechless. I'd say this is weird logic, but it's not, because there isn't any logic being applied.

[Sparky]

If Shadow were any slower than Sonic, he wouldn't be Shadow. His entire purpose as a character demands he "share Sonic's speed and agility" and be the spitting image of Sonic. Half the plot of Sonic Adventure 2 is built around that. Team Sonic and Team Dark played nearly exactly the same in Heroes for a reason. The Rival Battle in Generations is built around it. He HAS to be equal in speed to the fastest thing alive, because anything else wouldn't make sense. Maybe it is a contradiction, although I still don't see how, but it's still an undeniable fact. Omega's data, which was recently updated at the time, said the two were equal in ability. If Sonic can exceed light, so can Shadow. If Shadow can lift a bus singlehandedly, so can Sonic. Neither one is faster or stronger than the other. They aren't Sonic and Knuckles, they're Sonic and Shadow. Emphasis on "shadow". Shadow wasn't given that name during development because he's shady and mysterious (although I'm sure that still counts as a reason afterwards), he was called Shadow because he's meant to be like Sonic's shadow. He was originally going to be called "Terios" which means "reflection of". 

Knuckles is the rival that is somewhat slower in speed but massively stronger with more "Power" than Sonic. Shadow is the rival that is like Sonic fighting a dark-incarnation of himself, somewhat similar to Metal Sonic.

Everything that I'm saying comes from what I have seen and researched and stuff from all the official material related to the game canon. They aren't my "opinions", they're what I understand to be fact, what I know to be the truth.

[Nepenthe]

Undeniable facts aren't contradictory to each other. Literally, that's not how "undeniable facts" work. Either Sonic is the absolute fastest character, or he's just one of the two fastest characters. You cannot objectively have both.

[Indigo Rush]

I'm not sure this is even a debate anymore. @Sparky, people are providing you with logical evidence for all of this and you're simply ignoring it. Characters "rival" each other in speed for gameplay convenience. With that logic, Amy is also the fastest, because she's as fast as Sonic and Shadow in SA2 and Heroes.

The thing is that Shadow is a rival to Sonic because they're both vaguely really fast and are hedgehogs. Is Sonic faster? Probably, but he can't be the fastest while Shadow is the fastest. That isn't logical at all. They're either both the fastest, or one of them is faster. 

[Sparky]

11 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Undeniable facts aren't contradictory to each other. Literally, that's not how "undeniable facts" work. Either Sonic is the absolute fastest character, or he's just one of the two fastest characters. You cannot objectively have both.

Well that's not MY fault! If you find that to be an issue, blame SEGA! They are the ones that consistently say Sonic's the fastest and Shadow shares that speed IN THE SAME MANUALS. Contradiction or not, it's still the canonical truth. 

[Indigo Rush]

2 minutes ago, Sparky said:

Well that's not MY fault! If you find that to be an issue, blame SEGA! They are the ones that consistently say Sonic's the fastest and Shadow shares that speed IN THE SAME MANUALS. Contradiction or not, it's still the canonical truth. 

Y'know in the scholarly world, that sort of garbage doesn't fly.

Like, I know this is a talking blue hedgehog, but can we at least be consistent?

[Sparky]

1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

I'm not sure this is even a debate anymore. @Sparky, people are providing you with logical evidence for all of this and you're simply ignoring it. Characters "rival" each other in speed for gameplay convenience. With that logic, Amy is also the fastest, because she's as fast as Sonic and Shadow in SA2 and Heroes.

The thing is that Shadow is a rival to Sonic because they're both vaguely really fast and are hedgehogs. Is Sonic faster? Probably, but he can't be the fastest while Shadow is the fastest. That isn't logical at all. They're either both the fastest, or one of them is faster. 

The fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, SEGA says Sonic is the fastest and Shadow shares that same speed, and the gameplay reflects that. 

Amy wasn't as fast as Sonic in Heroes, and I think she's slower in SA2 as well. In Heroes, everyone has different speeds, and Sonic and Shadow are equally matched. Amy is slower. 

[Nepenthe]

After many chances to explain yourself, you once again deflect any and all rebuttal of your own arguments because you simply can't admit that they just doesn't make sense. You're not interested in discussion; you're interested in forcing your opinions on others at the expense of the conversation's quality. The topic's just going to keep getting derailed in this direction at this rate, and after the third time staff aren't going to keep dealing with this. Locking this up.