EU referendum: The UK votes to leave the EU

[Treacher]

7 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Unless Texas and Cali plan on fighting a second Civil War (lol hahahaha~), they really need to shut the fuck up and stop being stupid.

The UK leaving doesn't mean that they can attempt the same. And whoever is spearheading that is just showing how much of a moron they are.

Would Trump or Hillary even let them in the end? Would be funny to see them secede on the grounds of Trump winning thus forcing him to put his negotiation and business skills to work there, provided he doesn't go "Fuck it!" and allows them to leave.

Then there's a potential "Frexit", "Nexit", Scotland Independence re-vote, a potential splitting of both Wales(?) and Northern Ireland reunifying with its other half.. How bad are things really going to get for the EU?

[Nepenthe]

There is no standard referendum or voting process for states to legally secede from the Union. And 22% of people across the entire continent saying "their" state should be able to do so means there's far less people to do so in any given state.

It's not happening. Just because the UK is dumb doesn't mean we're dumb in that way.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

45 minutes ago, Treacher said:

Would Trump or Hillary even let them in the end? Would be funny to see them secede on the grounds of Trump winning thus forcing him to put his negotiation and business skills to work there, provided he doesn't go "Fuck it!" and allows them to leave.

Doesn't matter if Trump or Hillary will let them because 1) they wouldn't have total authority to tell them yes or no, 2) Congress (who has greater authority over that decision) would more than likely never let them even if they're a mess right now, 3) the Supreme Court practically laid out that no state can legally leave the Union (thanks to 2, who would have to make a law allowing such a thing), and 4) even disregarding the above, the American Civil War beat it into any state trying to seceed that they can't.

The only way any state is seceeding from the US is nothing short of them fighting and winning a second Civil War, otherwise it's not happenin'. Especially when the first Civil War was fought without things like tanks, jets, missiles, satellites and a lot of other high tech equipment we have now, and when America was barely even a great power compared to the superpower it is now, so good luck for any state trying to seceed.

[Treacher]

I know they're not really in a position to just leave the U.S just like that, although it's not going to stop a lot of people crying out for it to happen come November.

[Tani Coyote]

I think secession could be done if it was done UK-style. Scotland didn't just vote to break away on its own, but actually had Parliament's permission to hold a vote.

I don't know if a state needs a permission to hold such a vote, but it would stand to reason that if a state votes for independence, it would meet with Congress to negotiate separation.

This would be consistent with existing law for state border changes; the state and the federal government have to both agree to it. It stands to reason the same idea could be applied to the idea of secession.

But unilateral, armed secession? No. That's not how this goes.

Unilateral secession undermines any sort of political stability, because it means you can just run off the moment you don't like a new law. Actually having to sit down and agree to terms maintains stability. Now, we might make an exception for serious, imminent oppression (e.g. the Army occupying a state, violating rights, etc. .. you know, what England was doing to us), but on a day to day basis? Negotiation. That is all.

Also, there needs to be either a supermajority for a secession vote, or the ability for individual subdivisions to opt out of the decision. In the case of Texas, say, Austin could remain in the USA. In the case of Britain, London could remain in the EU. Just as examples.

12 hours ago, Neon said:

I have to say I really don't comprehend the whole ''vote leave to stick it to the elites'' angle I've been hearing. It makes no sense to me because not only will the elite be fine even if they do lose money, but all this is going to do is boost the tories ability to completely shaft these same Leave voters living in many poverty-stricken North England areas. Once again it'll be the poorest and most vulnerable people that feel the impact the most, more cuts to public services and benefits. They rally against the EU in an attempt to stick it to the tories only to let one sociopath clever enough to masquerade as a clown right into one of the top positions. And to think no election was necessary...but yet I still hear crap about the EU being undemocratic. 

I will never stop being angry at this giant fucking mess.

Localism has always been a bankrupt ideology. It feels that a guy a hundred miles from you is so much better than a guy a thousand miles away. States' rights people here in the US have the same issue.

Instead of being anti-Brussels or anti-London, be anti-elite. Instead of being entirely separate from the EU, make the government highly transparent and close to the people.

Of course, that requires erasing nationalism, which is a tall order. Sadly, despite the Anglosphere's interest in individual freedom, it is very big on national collectivism.

12 hours ago, Mark Hoppus said:

People looked at the IP addresses used to sign the petition, only around 360,000 were located in the UK.

The other 1,000,000 plus weren't.

The people who did this are morons. All they did was make it impossible for the idea to be taken seriously.

[Tornado]

9 hours ago, SenEDtor Missile said:

Welp, I'd better get ready to leave California in the next few years then. Especially if this California independence thing is headed by batshit crazy conservatives (is it?).

It is not. This specific stupid one may be, but traditionally the reason Californian secession has come up as a talking point is because California's state government has tried to overstep its legal boundary over what are traditionally "liberal" issues.

[Mogtaki]

Second EU referendum petition investigated for fraud - BBC.

Well I did say it wouldn't go under their noses. Do people think they are idiots? People adding fraudulent signatures isn't going to allow such a petition to be taken seriously. Signatures from people outside the UK and its eligible territories won't be counted.

[Patticus]

 

Quote

So I said to him, where's the plan, let me see the Brexit plan.

"There is no plan. The Leave campaign don't have a post-Brexit plan.... Number 10 should have had a plan"

Now it sounds like I'm making it up, that literally happened two hours ago.

Hilarious and depressing, all at once.

Of course, you know this is all being done on purpose: David Cameron jumping ship as soon as Leave's win becomes apparent condemns the Leave campaign's leaders to the career-ruinous prospect of negotiating and actually leaving the EU, and now the revelation that there was never any plan to leave anyway.

What amazing times we live in. Depressingly amazing.

[Speederino]

34 minutes ago, Mogtaki said:

Second EU referendum petition investigated for fraud - BBC.

Quote

 

The committee will consider the petition at its meeting next week and decide whether to schedule a debate on it, Ms Jones said.

"That doesn't mean that the committee will be deciding whether or not it agrees with the petition - just whether or not it should be debated

 

So they will debate on whether or not this is worth debating, and if they say it is then they will have a debate about whether or not there should be another debate.

Politics.

[TheOcelot]

A debate for a debate for a debate. You know, politics provides great entertainment. It's so stupid, so comical.

Meanwhile Labour appear to be in an utter mess:

Brexit: Jeremy Corbyn under pressure amid top team revolt

 

 

 

 

[Hyp3hat]

The implosion of Labour is not great, but hardly surprising - the Blairite wing of the party has been frothing at the mouth over Corbyn's leadership, and would do anything to get rid of him. They've just been waiting for an excuse.

[Patticus]

Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP summed up the current situation pretty well, I thought:

It's a real shame that there isn't a decent center-left party like the SNP that can cover the whole UK, that maybe she could lead. She'd be far and away a better PM than... eugh, Theresa May.

[Tani Coyote]

Did you guys catch the best part of the petition?

It was started by a Leave supporter, when he figured Remain would win, on the hopes that the Remain vote would be rendered invalid due to low turnout.

Instead, it's become a rallying cry for Remain people, muhahaha!

[Mauro Fonseca]

Figured SSMB's discussion would tendentially be against the result. Some of you might find this interesting, then:

https://medium.com/@oliverhumpage/i-want-to-stop-something-exploitative-divisive-and-dishonest-conversation-with-a-leaver-af77afb1773f

http://archive.is/jnnJV

(archive link in case the medium one doesn't work- seems to be finnicky)

[Nepenthe]

The bulk of that e-mail conversation is strikingly similar to an article I read about why a good deal of the working class has swung away from the Democratic Party to the GOP and Tea Party- that being that their concerns about long-term employment have either been ignored or been dismissed, with or without accusations of racism. I do think there are significant issues of abandonment on part of urban liberals towards rural conservatives despite both sharing huge common ground in terms of economic equality, similar to how the GOP has basically abandoned black America, that would be pertinent for liberal parties to address by opening up channels of communication, even if it's just in the context of the fact that you're dealing with human beings here who need a way to advance their own way of life for themselves and their children. But- and this is big but- one's ignorance is not an excuse for xenophobic sentiments in regards to the immigration issue, and dismissing this as "well, they can't articulate the real problem so they're going to lash out!" is not only extremely condescending, but it's a larger symptom of what I call mythologized racism: the belief that the only real racism is racism that is conscious, blatant, and targeted, and everything else can be waived away or shouldn't be called "racism". There is really no excuse for anyone to be attacking the existence and moral character of entire immigrant class as "the problem," especially if they're going to turn around and balk at generalizations towards them that say they're "the problem" for being racist. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Are all Leave voters notably racist? No, not at all. But to ignore or try to downplay the element that is is incredibly dishonest. These kinds of biases and prejudices, to me, are basically the foundation of social interaction and must be hashed out as immediately as possible, because if nothing else, it is completely impossible for you to claim common ground with someone if you don't respect them as a person.

[Tani Coyote]

Objective racism versus subjective racism, the old battle. Different sentiments, but same results.

The New Deal coalition in America united the average Southerner with the average Northerner. The Southerner generally had principled views of white supremacy. The Northerner might not have had an issue with non-whites per se, but they certainly were on board with discrimination because it protected their job prospects and status. This sort of divergence became especially apparent as time went on, as the South was busy enacting Jim Crow while the North left discrimination to private bodies. Racism as principle versus racism as self-interest. Either way, it's racism.

So in much the same way, a left-wing worker being for the Leave decision doesn't indicate anything, since they're ultimately just as interested in a racist outcome. Whether one's interested in getting rid of Muslims or simply reducing economic competition, there is a racist side effect. Left-wing causes accept xenophobia with open arms since it protects their job prospects; this is an inevitable consequence of left-wing groups not going fully left and embracing internationalism.

This is a classic divide at work. You have the often conservative upper class, the liberal educated middle class, and then the rank and file working class who will happily support whichever side's ideas sound the best for job prospects.

[Hyp3hat]

It's almost as if this is the result when the political class blame everything going wrong in this country on immigration, as well as use them for a scapegoat for ideological budget cuts to services. Can't get a school place? Blame immigrants. Can't get a job? Blame immigrants. Have to wait for a doctors appointment? Blame immigrants. Want to cut welfare budgets? Blame immigrants for using these services. Never mind that immigrants put more money into the public purse than they take out,  it's easiest to blame it on a bogeyman. 

I mean, there are good reasons for leaving the EU (that I am sympathetic to, but wasn't swayed by), but the whole neoliberalisation argument is not why the vast majority of Leave voters ticked that box. That wasn't the tenor of the campaign, that wasn't the main issue, and it's not why the referendum was called in the first place. That persons dad was duped by Nigel Farage into giving him the victory his racist, xenophobic party have been craving for the past ten years, and their futile 'neoliberalism is bad' argument doesn't change that fact. 

[Daisy-Fan]

remind me of that situation with Quebec in 1995. 

[Patticus]

I was reminded today about how far-reaching the effects of the Brexit, if it happens, will be.

First, the EU is in the process of passing new legislation that will eliminate roaming charges for mobile phones. The huge costs an EU citizen would normally incur using their mobile in a different EU state will soon be gone, to be replaced by normal, local charges. When the UK leaves the EU, those roaming charges will be back, for British citizens and EU citizens in the UK.

Secondly, the EU has legislated for extra long product warranties, which would also likely be gone when Brexit takes place.

Thirdly, if the UK drops out of the EU, only to enter the EEA (European Economic Area?), I will laugh. Being in the EEA is exactly the same as EU membership - you pay into it, you have to agree to free movement etc - but you'd get no say in the decision-making process, and there would be no veto. It'd be like being the manager of a sports team, and being so fed up of cleaning up the mess in the locker rooms that you demote yourself and get a new job... cleaning up the locker rooms. It's a bad deal, a terrible deal compared to the UK's current EU membership.

[Tani Coyote]

3 hours ago, Patticus said:

Thirdly, if the UK drops out of the EU, only to enter the EEA (European Economic Area?), I will laugh. Being in the EEA is exactly the same as EU membership - you pay into it, you have to agree to free movement etc - but you'd get no say in the decision-making process, and there would be no veto. It'd be like being the manager of a sports team, and being so fed up of cleaning up the mess in the locker rooms that you demote yourself and get a new job... cleaning up the locker rooms. It's a bad deal, a terrible deal compared to the UK's current EU membership.

 

Sounds like the Conservatives hand the English people bad deals all the time, but they still get elected anyway. Leaving the EU just gives the Conservatives leeway to pursue sociopathy in England and Wales without oversight from elsewhere.

[Mogtaki]

Scotland is still trying to work its way back into the EU and has been trying to negotiate. A lot of the EU is quite welcoming, but Spain's one is not probably because of Catalonia and Scotland kinda actively encouraging their independence vote.

Nicola Sturgeon has been working ever since the Brexit nonsense. The EU find an independent Scotland to be quite appealing and so does the Republic of Ireland. The Conservatives are not keen at the idea of a second indie referendum, but the EU gave the Scottish representative a standing ovation for his speech in Brussels.

Scotland is fighting hard to keep its best interests, there's even talks of an Irish trade union being worked out. Northern Ireland are pissed at the result and are talking about having their own referendum too so that they may keep trading with the EU as a lot of their businesses are on the border of the Republic. Gibraltar are also pretty pissed at the result and are in talks with Scotland at possible union if we manage to get some deal going. 96% of Gibraltar voted stay and naturally they are incredibly angry.

Long story short Scotland has lost faith in England and Wales and want to walk away with our also abandoned friends Northern Ireland and Gibraltar.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Speaking of Gibraltar, if the UK fragments, what'll become of it afterwards?

Spain's always been keen on taking it, and and (un-)United Kingdom doesn't seem like it will be in the best condition to hold it.

[Patticus]

Gibraltar: Spain began pushing, on the day after the referendum, for joint sovereignty over the territory. I can see the day come, however, when a Spanish nationalist government comes to power, and insists on a hand-over deal similar to that of Hong Kong being turned over to China.

However, if Brexit leads to a second Scottish independence referendum, and it succeeds where previous attempts failed, then that will inject new life into Catalonia's deflated independence movement, which, if also successful, would make a mockery of any Spanish attempt to gain control over Gibraltar.

[Hyp3hat]

Boris "The Rock" Johnson has ruled himself out of the Tory leadership race.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120

Which means that the two leading candidates are Theresa May, who is a person that seemingly looked at all the unreasonable criticism Hilary Clinton gets for being 'hawkish' and thought 'I can top that', and Michael Gove, a man who is so gormless and childish his own wife refers to him in the third person in personal emails. 

This of course means that the two potential PMs we will get both hate the EU, the former because its Human Rights Laws insist on that pesky due process stuff before she can deport them, and the latter because he is the literal dictionary definition of 'cretin' who views expert opinion as something to be distrusted becos brittan iz grayte. 

With the Labour Party currently reducing itself into a quantum state and in no position to stand in, let alone win, a general election, this country is just fucked. We thought David Cameron sucked, if Theresa May had her way we would be living in a police state by now. If she's Prime Minister in a UK without EU courts it's total surveillance and mass deportation! 

[Kevin]

 Here's some interesting news. Boris Johnson has stated he will not be in the running to replace David Cameron.

Color me surprised. When Cameron resigned, I'd thought he'd be the next likely PM. So now that he's out of the race, any guesses as to whom the next PM will be?

Edit: Whoops. I didn't see Hyp3hat's post mentioning this already.