EU referendum: The UK votes to leave the EU

[Tani Coyote]

I think it's an awful shame that a PM resigning does not result in an immediate dissolution of Parliament, especially given there was a popular mandate involved in the resignation.

Cameron screwed Britain over one last time, it seems, by not asking for a dissolution even as he said it was time for new leadership. Gotta preserve that Party dominance, you know?

[Hyp3hat]

2 minutes ago, Raccoonatic Ogilvie said:

I think it's an awful shame that a PM resigning does not result in an immediate dissolution of Parliament, especially given there was a popular mandate involved in the resignation.

Cameron screwed Britain over one last time, it seems, by not asking for a dissolution even as he said it was time for new leadership. Gotta preserve that Party dominance, you know?

The first law Cameron passed in the coalition government was a 5 year fixed term for Parliament - before 2010, this situation would have certainly resulted in a general election, but now the bar is much higher. The prat.

[Tani Coyote]

1 minute ago, Hyp3hat said:

The first law Cameron passed in the coalition government was a 5 year fixed term for Parliament - before 2010, this situation would have certainly resulted in a general election, but now the bar is much higher. The prat.

Ah, that explains it. And Parliamentary supremacy being the fun idea it is, the only way to get around that would be the Conservative majority voting to overturn it...

I guess Parliament deciding to greatly reduce accountability (one of the main advantages of a Parliamentary system) was foreshadowing for the Brexit decision. Sounds like Britain's slowly sliding towards fascism.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

19 minutes ago, Raccoonatic Ogilvie said:

Ah, that explains it. And Parliamentary supremacy being the fun idea it is, the only way to get around that would be the Conservative majority voting to overturn it...

I guess Parliament deciding to greatly reduce accountability (one of the main advantages of a Parliamentary system) was foreshadowing for the Brexit decision. Sounds like Britain's slowly sliding towards fascism.

Seems like both America and Britain are on their way to becoming the next Nazis. Heil Trump and whatever Britain's new Fuhrer will be!

[Tani Coyote]

28 minutes ago, SenEDtor Missile said:

Seems like both America and Britain are on their way to becoming the next Nazis. Heil Trump and whatever Britain's new Fuhrer will be!

I don't know. As bad as Trump is, America has a good system of checks and balances that have served us well for over 200 years.

Britain has nothing of the sort with five year terms and Parliamentary supremacy. British citizens can't run to a Supreme Court. A PM can't vote with his or her conscience against the wishes of Parliament. Parliament can't be dissolved early without Parliament saying yes (read: even a virtuous PM can't ask the Monarch for a dissolution to give the People a voice as could have been done previously).

Britain has several years left prior to an election. That's plenty of time for a Government to begin the work of killing democracy, especially with no EU oversight.

Such as a broad expansion of police power for the purpose of deporting immigrants. Of course, once the deportation is done... they will TOTALLY dismantle the police state that has been erected, surely?

Then, with Scotland's likely secession, you lose their left-wing balancing of English conservatism, pushing England further down the road of right-wing authoritarianism.

Parliamentary systems normally have a good check on abuse with the PM's ability to ask for an early dissolution of Parliament. That's gone now.

[Hyp3hat]

9 hours ago, Raccoonatic Ogilvie said:

I don't know. As bad as Trump is, America has a good system of checks and balances that have served us well for over 200 years.

Britain has nothing of the sort with five year terms and Parliamentary supremacy. British citizens can't run to a Supreme Court. A PM can't vote with his or her conscience against the wishes of Parliament. Parliament can't be dissolved early without Parliament saying yes (read: even a virtuous PM can't ask the Monarch for a dissolution to give the People a voice as could have been done previously).

Britain has several years left prior to an election. That's plenty of time for a Government to begin the work of killing democracy, especially with no EU oversight.

Such as a broad expansion of police power for the purpose of deporting immigrants. Of course, once the deportation is done... they will TOTALLY dismantle the police state that has been erected, surely?

Then, with Scotland's likely secession, you lose their left-wing balancing of English conservatism, pushing England further down the road of right-wing authoritarianism.

Parliamentary systems normally have a good check on abuse with the PM's ability to ask for an early dissolution of Parliament. That's gone now.

It's not all doom and gloom - the UK has a supreme court who can rule legislation void or unconstitutional (we have a constitution! It's implied through legislation, legal precedent, and other things, but it's there), the Lords can block legislation and force the government to rewrite it (to a certain extent), and an effective opposition (if we ever get one of those...) can get legislation amended and the fangs taken off. Even if the worst comes, no Parliament can bind its successor - all laws passed by one can be repealed by the next. 

Put it this way - the only thing from the most draconian May government that will last beyond 2020, provided the opposition win that general election, is the decision to trigger Article 50. The new Labour government would make it the first order of business to repeal the most shitty measures. And it's still possible to trigger a general election, with a two thirds majority of MPs declaring no confidence. This is high, but if the government is disastrous it could certainly happen.

[Tani Coyote]

1 hour ago, Hyp3hat said:

It's not all doom and gloom - the UK has a supreme court who can rule legislation void or unconstitutional (we have a constitution! It's implied through legislation, legal precedent, and other things, but it's there),

From what I've read, Parliament is free to ignore the declarations of the Supreme Court, however. This is a severe break from how things work in the US, where judicial review is theoretically absolute (though Congress can still skirt around it).

For the article in question, the Court is citing the EU's laws. This doesn't help Britain much once the EU's laws no longer apply.

1 hour ago, Hyp3hat said:

Even if the worst comes, no Parliament can bind its successor - all laws passed by one can be repealed by the next. 

Of course, that's why democratic leaders with an interest in authoritarianism get started on suppression early.

It gets even easier when there's no longer a left-wing tempering from Scotland. England will slide further right, enabling the ideas of the Conservatives further.

1 hour ago, Hyp3hat said:

Put it this way - the only thing from the most draconian May government that will last beyond 2020, provided the opposition win that general election, is the decision to trigger Article 50. The new Labour government would make it the first order of business to repeal the most shitty measures. And it's still possible to trigger a general election, with a two thirds majority of MPs declaring no confidence. This is high, but if the government is disastrous it could certainly happen.

But if the Conservative Party is creating this Government in the first place, how high are the chances they would abandon it? They presumably have a vested interest in all the stated policy goals, which isn't a good sign.

While Parliament can dissolve itself early, the idea of a five year term with no real checks and balances is concerning, especially given the pending turmoil as the UK falls apart after centuries of union.

[Scar]

16 minutes ago, Raccoonatic Ogilvie said:

It gets even easier when there's no longer a left-wing tempering from Scotland. England will slide further right, enabling the ideas of the Conservatives further.

Whilst I don't like the idea of this happening, if the English populace prefer a conservative government and elect one democratically, what's the problem? The fear that the conservatives will convert the government into a dictatorship? Wouldn't it be more prudent for Labour to get its shit together and compete harder against the existing conservative regime?

Also, given the number of resignations coming from with the current conservative government, I wouldn't be half surprised to see a number of otherwise Tory votes going to UKIP. This while a frightening thought does provide some balance as UKIP is tiny compared to Labour and anything that can take votes away from the Tory's can only make things balance out more for Labour and Lib-Dem (the latter also need to capitalise on the shambolic handling of this entire scenario and hope that people have forgotten about the Uni fees fiasco from 5 years ago.

Quote

But if the Conservative Party is creating this Government in the first place, how high are the chances they would abandon it? They presumably have a vested interest in all the stated policy goals, which isn't a good sign.

What do you mean by this? Isn't it natural for the incumbent party to not want to relinquish their power? I don't understand what you're saying? W.r.t to Brexit, the Tory party was internally divided

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While Parliament can dissolve itself early, the idea of a five year term with no real checks and balances is concerning, especially given the pending turmoil as the UK falls apart after centuries of union.

I feel like there is a tinge of hyperbole filtering through here...

[Patticus]

14 minutes ago, Scar said:

Whilst I don't like the idea of this happening, if the English populace prefer a conservative government and elect one democratically, what's the problem?

The problem is that conservative policies only serve the wealthy, while ignoring or worsening the situations of poor people, the vulnerable, etc. Just because a majority of the English people seem to like voting for that kind of government, there are a great many in urban and poor areas who have been and will continue to be disastrously impacted by conservative policies.

This is why Brexit happened - it's a great big Fuck You to the conservative establishment that has ignored the plight of the poor.

[Scar]

2 minutes ago, Patticus said:

The problem is that conservative policies only serve the wealthy, while ignoring or worsening the situations of poor people, the vulnerable, etc. Just because a majority of the English people seem to like voting for that kind of government, there are a great many in urban and poor areas who have been and will continue to be disastrously impacted by conservative policies.

This is why Brexit happened - it's a great big Fuck You to the conservative establishment that has ignored the plight of the poor.

Oh I understand that. Which is why I'm confused these communities are voting right wing. I dunno, maybe I'm just not understanding the underlying sociological issues. 

[Tani Coyote]

26 minutes ago, Scar said:

Whilst I don't like the idea of this happening, if the English populace prefer a conservative government and elect one democratically, what's the problem? The fear that the conservatives will convert the government into a dictatorship?

Well yes. The Party leaders being floated don't exactly give me hope for the English people's liberties and economic prospects.

26 minutes ago, Scar said:

Wouldn't it be more prudent for Labour to get its shit together and compete harder against the existing conservative regime?

Realignment is the thing. If England as a whole slides right, Labour will have to do so to as well to remain relevant.

26 minutes ago, Scar said:

Also, given the number of resignations coming from with the current conservative government, I wouldn't be half surprised to see a number of otherwise Tory votes going to UKIP. This while a frightening thought does provide some balance as UKIP is tiny compared to Labour and anything that can take votes away from the Tory's can only make things balance out more for Labour and Lib-Dem (the latter also need to capitalise on the shambolic handling of this entire scenario and hope that people have forgotten about the Uni fees fiasco from 5 years ago.

This is all true, but England as a whole will slide further right, which can potentially be destructive.

From what I have seen, Scotland was traditionally a reservoir of Labour support, but the SNP's rise in recent years dislodged them. Once Scotland leaves, there's no hope of getting it back... which means the only option for Labour is to adopt right-wing policies to appeal to the English public.

26 minutes ago, Scar said:

What do you mean by this? Isn't it natural for the incumbent party to not want to relinquish their power? I don't understand what you're saying? W.r.t to Brexit, the Tory party was internally divided

I was mostly saying that the option of a vote in no confidence or a supermajority calling for an election is unlikely, eliminating the check and balance.

26 minutes ago, Scar said:

I feel like there is a tinge of hyperbole filtering through here...

Not really. Economic turmoil - as is happening and will continue to happen if Scotland and a few other parts go their separate ways - is an excellent breeding ground for authoritarianism.

Think about it. Why do developing countries have so many issues? Unstable economic conditions cause unstable political conditions, and it becomes a vicious cycle.

While the UK isn't a third world nation, neither was Weimar Germany or Yeltsin's Russia.

[Patticus]

Of course, that right-ward slide is only going to continue hurting and disenfranchising the very people who voted so overwhelmingly to leave the EU as a result of years of that exact treatment.  None of their grievances are going to be addressed by the Conservatives or a more right-wing Labour, and it's all going to blow up in their faces as a result.

Eventually, there's going to have to be a righting of the ship and resurgence of the left, surely?

[Tani Coyote]

On 7/8/2016 at 5:02 AM, Patticus said:

Eventually, there's going to have to be a righting of the ship and resurgence of the left, surely?

Most likely when right-wing ideas end up driving the country off a cliff. If we're lucky, the economic crisis prompted by Brexit will be enough to bankrupt Conservative ideas long before they have a chance to become more normative.

Given the massive deregulation of the Thatcher years onward, though, I don't know if even a privatization of the NHS would suffice to alienate people from right-wing ideas.

[Hyp3hat]

The countries really been on a rightwing slide since the 80's, tho - Blair was a Thatcher-lite, although with left leaning tendencies such as the minimum wage and making peace with Northern Ireland instead of going to war with it. But he was very pro-business which lead to the 2008 crash and felt the need to have a war (which, unlike Maggie, completely fucked the world as we know it). They aren't completely dissimilar.

I mean, lots of things that the Tories did in the last 6 years we're going to struggle to get back - privatised national services, slashed budgets leading to cut services. And there's more subtle, ingrained things, like a need to be 'tough on immigration', somehow convincing the nation that austerity was necessary, demonising the poor, etc. If Brexits told us anything, it's that outside of the liberal bubbles we're a fundamentally rightwing nation - this is due to the politics, and the press. Writing this was very depressing. 

[Tani Coyote]

And it will get even worse without Scotland's injection of left-wing ideas. Northern Ireland seems to lean towards the right, but overall, it looks like the implications of Brexit are that what's left of the UK will drift further right, rather akin to a state of the US South leaving the United States.

The fallout from Brexit might not turn Britain into Airstrip One, but it's certainly gonna make our politics seem less extreme.

[Spin Attaxx]

So Andrea Leadsom's pulled a Boris and Nigel, too...

...erm, yay...? I mean, we're fucked anyway, but May is the lesser of the two evils, right?

[TheOcelot]

Yep, Leadsom has withdrawn. Her comments about Theresa not being able to do a better job because she doesn't have children definitely backfired.

So, Theresa May will be the new UK PM with effect from Wednesday evening.

 

[Salamander]

Prime Minister, without a single vote cast.  That's democracy.

Oh well.  At least Gove murder-suicided his and Boris's political futures.

[Tani Coyote]

7 hours ago, FFWF said:

Prime Minister, without a single vote cast.  That's democracy.

After the way the referendum turned out, they were probably reluctant to hold a general vote.

This is Westminister and Parliamentary politics for you, though. In fairness, there were two votes among the MPs, so there was a form of democracy here. If that doesn't satisfy you, it would be wise to switch to popular vote presidentialism, so the people, not a Party or Parliament, get to choose the head of government.

[Hyp3hat]

http://www.thelineofbestfit.com/news/latest-news/david-camerons-humming-transformed-into-sweeping-orchestral-tracks

Well, when they eventually make a House Of Cards style dramatisation of Cameron's leadership, they have a theme song ready...

[TheOcelot]

Cameron is no longer Prime Minister

Theresa May is now the new PM.

 

[Spin Attaxx]

I think my dad summed it up yesterday when he said that we may not be getting the Wicked Witch of the West (read: Andrea Leadsom) as the Prime Minister, but we're still getting Zelda.

Not that Zelda, mind, he means this Zelda:

[Tani Coyote]

May's insistent on not calling for a second vote, saying the people spoke with the high turnout.

This in spite of more than a few Leave voters not realizing the potential fallout from the decision and the narrow margin that very easily could swing the other way with a second vote.

The Divided Kingdom is in for a good time these next few years, certainly.

[PaddyFancy]

12 minutes ago, Spin Attaxx said:

I think my dad summed it up yesterday when he said that we may not be getting the Wicked Witch of the West (read: Andrea Leadsom) as the Prime Minister, but we're still getting Zelda.

Not that Zelda, mind, he means this Zelda:

Liked for being one of a very select few who knows where that Zelda comes from.

So now we got Prime Minister May and Chancellor Hammond. Its as if the old Top Gear lads have taken over, and will probably be as ambitious but rubbish.

[Hyp3hat]

Boris Johnson is Foreign Secretary. This is it, lads, prepare to go to war.