How and Why - Silver the Hedgehog

[Alice Twilight]

6 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

I mean fuck, look at this guy.

Sakurai took a franchise so sugary and sweet that he regularly names whole stages after desserts, and threw a dark, brooding swordsman into it without batting an eyelid or compromising any of the existing tones. You tryin' to tell me Sonic can't do that? Frankly I beg to differ.

I have no idea who that character is and I didn't say Sonic can't do that, everytime they did try and do stuff like that it's never ended well. Shadow the Hedgehog's game comes to mind. I'd rather they just stick with the status quo they have now, I don't like the idea of constant rewrites to suit whatever change Sonic has gone through now but it's not about what I want, if they can bring Silver back in the games, good for Sonic Team, as long as he's an enjoyable character to have around in said game that's all that matters.

[MetalSkulkBane]

As character, Silver is fine. As gameplay, he needs lots of work or become Sonic with small gimmick attached to him.

Overall Sega needs now to make few solid games for people to forger Rise of Lyric, and then veeeeeery slowly add new playable characters, giving them 1 unique, but similar to Sonic gameplay 2 purpose in story 3 explanation how will they return in the future. (Making unlock-able Shadow skin would be a nice first step).

If not, Silver is stuck in spin offs, cameos and Archie comic. I can live with that, although I wish we had more "Rush/Rivals/Advance/Chronicles", something with more "meat" than "Olympics/Android games/ Generations for 3DS"

[Blacklightning]

3 hours ago, Komaru Naegi said:

I have no idea who that character is and I didn't say Sonic can't do that, everytime they did try and do stuff like that it's never ended well. Shadow the Hedgehog's game comes to mind.

That argument works both ways. We also have SA1-2 on the same side of the coin and most of the populace upholds it as some of the best games in the series, so there's really no point in cherry picking specific games to support specific points when they ultimately contradict each other - it's classic "correlation =/= causation", except the correlation is at best about 2-3 games in total. ShTH isn't a case in point as to why it can never work - only an example as to how it can.

That being said, nearly all of the things I suggested weren't even rewrites or tonal deviations so much as working with the material already established for the character. Silver living in a good future isn't a retcon so much as it is a completely expected (and in many ways directly implied) result of obliterating the entity singlehandedly responsible for causing it, for example, and when the newfound peace is threatened by the events of Sonic's timeline it's not really much of an asspull to suggest he'd wanna jump back to help, temporarily or otherwise. It's at this point that I should also reiterate that the tone of the narrative doesn't affect this and vice versa - just because the future is at risk doesn't necessarily mean going full narm and overplaying it like 06 did.

There are plenty of examples that demonstrate perfectly that just because one character is of a grim persuasion doesn't mean the entire tone and narrative has to bend over backwards to accomodate it. Metaknight in Kirby. Reaper in Overwatch. Spade and Lord Brevon in Freedom Planet. Zant and Midna in Twilight Princess. Hell, the only compromises that the majority of the TF2 cast make is that the humour gets somewhat blacker than normal. In fact, why do I have to point this out? This isn't even Shadow the Hedgehog we're talking about - Silver's never been particularly grim or cynical, in fact he's arguably the most naieve character in the series, which is a big feat considering the baffling amounts of flanderization Knuckles has gone through. The only thing you've ever based this tangent off is "came from a bad future", something that arguably isn't true anymore even if it were somehow relevant.

...fucking hell this came out a lot more rambly than I intended it to. My apologies if it comes off as mean spirited.

2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

As character, Silver is fine. As gameplay, he needs lots of work or become Sonic with small gimmick attached to him.

Overall Sega needs now to make few solid games for people to forger Rise of Lyric, and then veeeeeery slowly add new playable characters, giving them 1 unique, but similar to Sonic gameplay 2 purpose in story 3 explanation how will they return in the future. (Making unlock-able Shadow skin would be a nice first step).

Gameplay wise, I always imagined a refined Silver as something along the lines of Klonoa fare - rather than specifically throwing enemies at each other, pulling them to you and using them as jump boosts. I feel like Sonic abilities should always focus on mobility first and attacking second, a little of both wherever possible, and I feel like something like that is the perfect baseline to develop the rest of his abilities around.

I disagree that reintroducing playable characters needs to be a slow trickle per se, though. Instead I feel that they shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel every time they add one. The other characters in SA1 and 2 never failed because the foundation wasn't solid - if anything it's because they used completely different foundations between characters, and most of them didn't tie into the same hooks people already played Sonic games for. Silver's original gameplay is the perfect case in point in that, especially if Phos is to be believed, because his gameplay literally did come from a completely different game before it was shoehorned into '06:

13 hours ago, Phos said:

They wanted a character to use the telekinesis abilities from their canceled game, "Fifth Phantom Saga", and apparently to make Dio Brando references.

As long as the roster shares a binding sense of consistency, this isn't really as big a deal as a lot of people make it out to be.

[Cheese the Ducking Chao]

Silver is a character I don't mind, but don't like. He was always kinda inferior to me and I'd much rather have it that he no longer appears; since almost all of the games with him were shitstorm. Though I can imagine him possibly appearing in Sonic Chronicles 2, if it ever comes out. Just to clear it up:

A day in the Twilight Cage could be like years in Mobius/Sonic's world.

With this, he could appear, and give him a reason to appear. It would be really fun doing OP POW moves with this hedgey c:

Next, about the '06 thing, here's what I got:
It happened; it's just erased from the timeline.

[Alice Twilight]

1 hour ago, Blacklightning said:

The only thing you've ever based this tangent off is "came from a bad future", something that arguably isn't true anymore even if it were somehow relevant.

Yes, it was a very poor thing to bring up and a silly thing to mention. I apologize for not giving my post any thought. Thank you for explaining you cleared up a lot of things and my stance on Silver has changed.

[Sparky]

Silver's existence was originally concieved as just another character in the franchise, Venice the Mink, but they quickly decided that it would be better to make him another hedgehog. And not just another hedgehog, but another Sonic. Another 3' 3ft 77lb hedgehog with the ability to harness the power of the Chaos Emeralds to use Chaos Control and a golden Super transformation, plus fighting against an egg-shaped mad scientist as of Sonic Rivals, except instead of just supersonic speed, his emphasis is on psychokinetic abilities and ESP, although the supersonic speed is still there. He's not just a psychic time-traveller, he's a psychic time-travelling Sonic. He is constantly promoted as a rival for Sonic because of the fact that he is another variation of Sonic, similar to Shadow. But, for some reason, most people still see him as "Venice the Mink", metaphorically-speaking, and are confused and/or annoyed at why the Sonic-like elements to his character even exist. 

So, this is what Silver the Hedgehog is. Sonic the Hedgehog as a psychic time traveller from the future doing the Sonic CD thing of changing the Past to make a Good Future. He's pretty much the Sonic of the future. Speaking of Sonic CD and Silver being another Sonic, what I'd like to see is explicitly showing that Silver does possess Sonic's speed (on foot, like we've seen in Rivals and Generations3DS) and using that as the primary method that Silver uses to time travel. Anyways, Sonic Rivals shows us that Silver the Hedgehog and Eggman Nega are pretty much continuing the endless battle between Sonic and Eggman. But, there's a difference between Eggman and Nega. Unlike Doctor Eggman who wants to conquer the world and creating the Eggman Empire, mechanizing and robotizing all life and stuff, Eggman Nega has shown that he wants to destroy all of time and space, for whatever crazy reason. So, if that's the case, is there a similar difference between Sonic and Silver? If so, what is that difference? If Metal Sonic is a robotic version of Sonic the Hedgehog as Eggman's loyal superbadnik, and Shadow the Hedgehog is a dark-incarnation of Sonic the Hedgehog as the government's ultimate weapon and soldier, then what is Silver the Hedgehog? Is there another variation of a theme of 'lack of freedom' or 'controlled chaos' that carries through Metal Sonic and Shadow? 

[MetalSkulkBane]

3 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

I disagree that reintroducing playable characters needs to be a slow trickle per se, though. Instead I feel that they shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel every time they add one. The other characters in SA1 and 2 never failed because the foundation wasn't solid - if anything it's because they used completely different foundations between characters, and most of them didn't tie into the same hooks people already played Sonic games for. Silver's original gameplay is the perfect case in point in that, especially if Phos is to be believed, because his gameplay literally did come from a completely different game before it was shoehorned into '06:

I would love to play Shadow, Silver and Knuckles in very next Sonic game, BUT I would slow it down because

1 Many people still hate Sonic friends, so we need to win them over. First Genesis characters, then popular ones, then more controversial ones

2 I love SA1 but it's obvious this game is "jack of all trades, master of none". Let Team Sonic focus on 1-2 new gameplay styles per game

3 It's just smart thing to keep something for sequels.

[Nepenthe]

Why can't you win over people in a single title?

Battlefield didn't take ten years of slow, unnecessary progress just to get to Battlefield 1. They just did it in one game. Same with Resident Evil going back to a survival horror approach. Same with Zelda attempting an open world game. Same with DOOM creating a modern version off its classic experience. None of these changes were on weird ambiguous timetables. They just happened.

Plenty of franchises get to improve immediately in one game. Why can't Sonic?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Plenty of franchises get to improve immediately in one game. Why can't Sonic?

Even if they make a good title; not alot of people are going to trust Sonic Team. Sonic is often treated differently than other franchises and I don't know why.

[D.H]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

Why can't you win over people in a single title?

Battlefield didn't take ten years of slow, unnecessary progress just to get to Battlefield 1. They just did it in one game. Same with Resident Evil going back to a survival horror approach. Same with Zelda attempting an open world game. Same with DOOM creating a modern version off its classic experience. None of these changes were on weird ambiguous timetables. They just happened.

Plenty of franchises get to improve immediately in one game. Why can't Sonic?

Funny enough, Sonic kinda did that with Colors. From 2005-2009, people everywhere was saying Sonic needs to die, and that Sonic will never be good again, etc. etc. But when Colors came out, everyone shouted that "Sonic is good again!" 

If the 25th anniversary game is really good, I can see the same thing happening.

[Nepenthe]

3 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

Even if they make a good title; not alot of people are going to trust Sonic Team. Sonic is often treated differently than other franchises and I don't know why.

Because Sonic Team has yet to make a game with both inspired mechanics and quality control. They make games that are overall passable and inoffensive. Sonic has not had something truly captivating to the public like a DOOM or BF1 or even a Rayman Origins since Adventure 1.

[Wraith]

7 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

Even if they make a good title; not alot of people are going to trust Sonic Team. Sonic is often treated differently than other franchises and I don't know why.

 

Sonic honestly doesn't get treated with much undeserved scrutiny despite what some fans would like to believe. It always comes down to his games just not being good enough. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I know. My point is that ST isn't gonna just WOW people and get people into Sonic with one good game. No one still isn't going to trust them/.

 

[MetalSkulkBane]

33 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Why can't you win over people in a single title?

Battlefield didn't take ten years of slow, unnecessary progress just to get to Battlefield 1. They just did it in one game. Same with Resident Evil going back to a survival horror approach. Same with Zelda attempting an open world game. Same with DOOM creating a modern version off its classic experience. None of these changes were on weird ambiguous timetables. They just happened.

Plenty of franchises get to improve immediately in one game. Why can't Sonic?

I'm just saying what I would do, it's not necessary the best way.

But  in my opinion statement "Zelda will have open world now" will receive much less poo than "Next Sonic game will have multiple playable characters, including Silver". There is no 06 and Rise of Lyric to compare it to,

...Also, I caused a slight off-topic

[Lord-Dreamerz]

There’s 2 main reasons I don’t like Silver.

#1: I don’t like how they tried to reduce Blaze’s character as a somewhat sidekick love interest in Sonic 06 for him… It’s insulting on multiple levels. So while it was Sonic Team who was to blame for all that... however Silver still remains a icon for my fave Sonic character's image getting a bit ruined in the community...

#2: He’s yet another male hedgehog… And a pretty boring one far as that goes in every aspect. If he was another more original animal I might like him little more, or if he was a girl or something… But he’s not.

To me there’s just flat-out better and far more interesting characters out there to use. And I swear the company’s artists can’t decide if his colors are off white or actual gray/silver after every other game with him in it.

Far as gameplay I think that psychic powers could be mixed fine in a fast paced game, If thought out correctly

[Nepenthe]

I'm not sure why people say Blaze was really "reduced" to anything with Silver when Silver is actually the tagalong in the storyline. After Iblis is defeated for the millionth time, it's Blaze having to calm a frustrated Silver down. When they get separated after the first time travel, he gets worried without Blaze and subsequently teams up with Amy for at least some kind of company (and even then Amy is obviously leading the charge). After being abandoned by Amy, he discusses his moral hang-ups with the whole situation to Blaze, but is dismissed by her as naive and then shuts up about it for the rest of the game because of course Sempai is right. She's the one who makes the sacrifice at the end and leaves him alone. Blaze is, by all accounts, the Batman to Silver's Robin in the storyline. The only thing is we're simply playing as the Robin instead.

On top of that, there's literally no romantic inclinations between them given in the game that would be comparable to previous game displays of romantic interest. No doting like with Amy, and no "get a room" tension as with Knuckles and Rouge. Blaze is Silver's best friend. I know, right; boys and girls can be friends.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

7 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I'm not sure why people say Blaze was really "reduced" to anything with Silver when Silver is actually the tagalong in the storyline. After Iblis is defeated for the millionth time, it's Blaze having to calm a frustrated Silver down. When they get separated after the first time travel, he gets worried without Blaze and subsequently teams up with Amy for at least some kind of company (and even then Amy is obviously leading the charge). After being abandoned by Amy, he discusses his moral hang-ups with the whole situation to Blaze, but is dismissed by her as naive and then shuts up about it for the rest of the game because of course Sempai is right. She's the one who makes the sacrifice at the end and leaves him alone. Blaze is, by all accounts, the Batman to Silver's Robin in the storyline. The only thing is we're simply playing as the Robin instead.

On top of that, there's literally no romantic inclinations between them given in the game that would be comparable to previous game displays of romantic interest. No doting like with Amy, and no "get a room" tension as with Knuckles and Rouge. Blaze is Silver's best friend. I know, right; boys and girls can be friends.

You know, I never looked at it that way. I do understand why people would blame Silver for Blaze's demise, it's because Blaze never talked to any other character nor is she acknowledged by any other character. Plus, Silver fans (the bad ones) often portray their relationship that way. Plus there are fan art of them everywhere!

I'm not saying I agree; because I do not. But I understand why.

[Nepenthe]

I draw fanart and do a roleplay of Shadow and Amy based off of three interactions they've had in the canon games. If anyone were to take that to mean Shadamy is actually a thing, that's their problem.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

I draw fanart and do a roleplay of Shadow and Amy based off of three interactions they've had in the canon games. If anyone were to take that to mean Shadamy is actually a thing, that's their problem.

I'm saying that Silver fans (again, the bad ones) actually draw Silver and Blaze as if Blaze is Silver's charm bracelet or background prop and that part of the reason why people blame Silver for ruining Blaze.

[Nepenthe]

That isn't a problem with the character as determined by the writing in Sonic 06. That's a problem with dumb Silver fans' interpretation of the relationship. So my point stands: anyone trawling for bad Silvaze fanart only to get mad about it and then make the argument that Sonic 06 meaningfully set up that branch of the fanbase is literally wrong in their argument.

[MetalSkulkBane]

10 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I'm not sure why people say Blaze was really "reduced" to anything with Silver when Silver is actually the tagalong in the storyline. After Iblis is defeated for the millionth time, it's Blaze having to calm a frustrated Silver down. When they get separated after the first time travel, he gets worried without Blaze and subsequently teams up with Amy for at least some kind of company (and even then Amy is obviously leading the charge). After being abandoned by Amy, he discusses his moral hang-ups with the whole situation to Blaze, but is dismissed by her as naive and then shuts up about it for the rest of the game because of course Sempai is right. She's the one who makes the sacrifice at the end and leaves him alone. Blaze is, by all accounts, the Batman to Silver's Robin in the storyline. The only thing is we're simply playing as the Robin instead.

On top of that, there's literally no romantic inclinations between them given in the game that would be comparable to previous game displays of romantic interest. No doting like with Amy, and no "get a room" tension as with Knuckles and Rouge. Blaze is Silver's best friend. I know, right; boys and girls can be friends.

I agree with you, but to extent. Blaze is not a sidekick, but no mentor either.  Otherwise she would be one fighting Iblis or talking to Mephiles. They friends, duo, partners.

I find it funny that Knuckles was reduced to Sonic's sideckick nr 2 and I hear less complains about that.

1 minute ago, Mikyeong said:

I'm saying that Silver fans (again, the bad ones) actually draw Silver and Blaze as if Blaze is Silver's charm bracelet or background prop and that part of the reason why people blame Silver for ruining Blaze.

Funny, one of reasons why I like Silver X Blaze is because they equals, both important characters, rather than "hero and his girlfriend". (Of course I know it's not canon,,, officially.)

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

True.

I will say this though; we do have to admit their relationship suffered from the hands of bad writing. If someone wrote a good story with them, I would be really happy. Silver and Blaze's sibling relationship had so much potential to be great and to bring out aspects of both characters such as the backstory that Silver was the only one to accept her powers after Blaze being teased. I mean, that would have been sweet if they worked with that backstory - and yes it was actually suppose to be a canon backstory as to why they were friends. I personally do not get how them being friends would ruin Blaze, if anything if done right, it would strengthen her character. Plus like someone said, boys and girls can be friends. 

As a note: when I said I ship Silvaze, I meant as friends; not romance.

[Nepenthe]

The implication is that she fights Iblis along with Silver, just as Sonic and Tails together both take down the appropriate bosses in Sonic Adventure. Talking to Mephiles is pretty irrelevant as well since they both agree to go along with his plans because, at that point in their lifespans, it's better than nothing (and yet only Silver is called out as dumb for believing Mephiles, despite being at least smart enough to start having doubts, hm hm hmmm). If anyone in the relationship going to have an issue or need some support, it's going to be Silver, because Silver is an emotional, naive, and ethically-confused kid and Blaze is too cool for that kind of stuff.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Also, another reason is that they threw out Blaze's backstory out the window which I also found odd. But again, not Silver's fault.

[Wraith]

If anything, this kind of opens my eyes to how OOC Blaze was in 06 compared to the other games she was in. In the other Rush games, Blaze's aloofness isn't much more than an act to hide her insecurities and she loses her cool and goes off on people when she shouldn't more than a few times to the point where Sonic has to tell her to chill out. In 06, calm and collected is basically all she is, and that's no fun. The Blaze we know isn't really fit to be a mentor.