Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

[Maxtiis]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm including aesthetics, though; Unleashed doesn't even come close to matching the kind of curvy-hilly terrain I expect out of Sonic.

 

Just now, Scar said:

Huh? Isn't topgraphy different to aesthetics? Unleashed has the perfect 'look' to a modern Sonic game imo. Topographically you're absolutely right though. Unleashed is largely flat. I actually think the best level in terms of topography is actually Windmill Isle Act 1 in the HD version (by that I mean the tutorial level), because it has this nice organic hilly area. 

I may have used the wrong term, but since you understood what I meant...oh well. And maybe Unleashed was a poor example, but considering you're blazing through the environment so quickly I might not have noticed a lack of hills. Generations would probably have been more appropriate, I remember Chemical Plant having a quite a few slopes even as Modern Sonic, but considering it was throwing back to the Genesis era, that's to be expected.

 

9 minutes ago, Mauricius said:

Of course. I did know about the insta-shield though. I used it pretty much all the time so it's a pity it's not in Mania, but it's useful only in some specific cases anyway.

Yeah, that is a shame. I suggested in a previous post that it'd be neat if the concept of the skill shop from Generations was brought back, and I think this is a situation where it'd benefit. I'm fine with the drop dash, it looks like it'll be great for speed running. 

[TheOcelot]

Don't know if this has already been mentioned in this thread. You can now order the Collector's Edition via Gamestop for all four platforms.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Scar said:

Huh? Isn't topgraphy different to aesthetics? Unleashed has the perfect 'look' to a modern Sonic game imo. Topographically you're absolutely right though. Unleashed is largely flat. I actually think the best level in terms of topography is actually Windmill Isle Act 1 in the HD version (by that I mean the tutorial level), because it has this nice organic hilly area. 

Aesthetically, topologically, whatever angle you want to approach it from, Unleashed was very, very flat, in the literal sense.

Unleashed's aesthetics in general are fine, taken on their own; it is a good looking game, and I don't think you'll find many arguments against that. But to me, nothing in it looks distinctly Sonic. It's just a sort of postcard-perfect interpretation of real locations with Pixaresque humans...and then they added Sonic, Eggman, some loops and rings and springs, and decided that was enough.

[Zippo]

4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I don't care about realism, most of the stories of 3D Sonic games are trash, and I care about gameplay first and foremost and that's something that the Genesis Sonics and (by all appearances) Mania excel at compared to the rampant incompetency seen in the 3D games.

100% with you here. I could not care less about the story or "realism" of a Sonic game. Give me a fun, well designed game and that's all I need. Beautiful visuals and an engaging story are definitely a plus, but they are not needed, personally speaking. If I want to play a game for the story, I'll go play Final Fantasy VI or Chrono Trigger for the thousandth time.

[JezMM]

3 hours ago, AtomicPencils said:

The stories from the Classic Era hold up better mainly because they were simple. I don't think it's impossible to tell a complex story through a 2-D sidescroller, it's just difficult to do so. Since the main audience for Mania are people who care about the nuances of physics more than storytelling atmosphere, I doubt the game will have anything beyond 'go stop Eggman'.

I'm not sure why so many people are insistent there won't be a story.  The developers know the classic fans want a successor to S3&K in ALL departments, not just physics-play.  They've already said "there is a reason Sonic is returning to past locations" and that the game will have S3&K-style cut-scenes and zone transitions.  These two things added together strongly suggest there will be a narrative to enjoy.

I don't expect the game to add some major thing to Sonic lore like S3&K did considering it's being made by relative "outsiders", but I'll honestly be shocked if the only real cut-scenes are the opening and ending and the rest is just "Sonic jumps onto a balloon and it drops him in the next zone" or whatever.  I'm expecting at least a few moments that re-frame the action into a narrative like the fire-bombing of Angel Island, the Death Egg Launch, Knuckles sealing the Super Ring entrance in Mushroom Hill and Hidden Palace were in S3&K.

[Zippo]

Sonic related video for those interested. Some very cool, obscure facts in there that a lot of people may not know.

Warning: "Eggman" and "sex appeal" are used in relation to one another in the video. Viewer descretion is advised.

[AtomicPencils]

1 hour ago, JezMM said:

I'm not sure why so many people are insistent there won't be a story. 

Yeah that's... not what I mean, and I'll take blame on account of phrasing. I'm expecting Mania to have a simple narrative, as all the previous Classic titles do. Even though S3&K has cutscenes that help strengthen it's storytelling, it still follows the relative structure of a simple narrative. (And that's not a bad thing either, since most sonic games are like this.)
 

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The developers know the classic fans want a successor to S3&K in ALL departments, not just physics-play.  They've already said "there is a reason Sonic is returning to past locations" and that the game will have S3&K-style cut-scenes and zone transitions. 

I don't know, doesn't trying to surpass while simultaneously retreading old levels feel somewhat contradictory? Ah well. 

I'd be more excited if there were an in-game context for them besides nostalgia. Instead making us run through Green Hill for the Nth time, imagine if we were shown what happened since S3&K. Maybe we race through a charred, burned down version of the zone. Eggman filled it with iron and oil rigs. Maybe we eventually come across the crash site of Flying Battery. We see the wild flowers growing through mossy rails, rusted pipes, and broken down machinery. This would give us some idea of what consequences could occur if Eggman wins, thus it gains relevance. 

[Milo]

1 hour ago, AtomicPencils said:

I'd be more excited if there were an in-game context for them besides nostalgia. Instead making us run through Green Hill for the Nth time, imagine if we were shown what happened since S3&K. Maybe we race through a charred, burned down version of the zone. Eggman filled it with iron and oil rigs. Maybe we eventually come across the crash site of Flying Battery. We see the wild flowers growing through mossy rails, rusted pipes, and broken down machinery. This would give us some idea of what consequences could occur if Eggman wins, thus it gains relevance. 

The lower path / end of Green Hill Act 1 and the few screenshots we have of Act 2 shows the level going underground, complete with a new background and new level layouts; both elements of which aren't from the original Green Hill Zone. Moreover, Taxman is on record for saying Green Hill will be the tamest of the re-imagined levels. I'd at least wait and see for at least another remade level before writing them off wholesale.

[AtomicPencils]

Just now, Gabe said:

The lower path / end of Green Hill Act 1 and the few screenshots we have of Act 2 shows the level going underground and having level design arrangements that aren't from the original game. Moreover, Taxman is on record for saying Green Hill will be the tamest of the re-imagined levels.

Ehh... Generations already did that though.

 

[Milo]

13 minutes ago, AtomicPencils said:

Ehh... Generations already did that though.

 

True, but it's not like the Green Hill in Mania is a direct rip of the Green Hill in Generations. The depictions of the underground segments are stylistically different, and it goes without saying that the level design isn't the same either.

Moreover, it's worth noting that Generations is a game specifically about being a nostalgia trip, the story and the retro levels are specifically based on revisiting Sonic's past. Mania is a new entry to the classic series that happens to have new levels in addition to old levels, and the developers have said the story will explain why classic levels are re-appearing in the game; the context for how the games utilize old levels won't be the same. Again, I suggest waiting for seeing how other remixed levels in the game turned out first before dismissing them.

[AtomicPencils]

Just now, Gabe said:

Generations is specially a game entirely based around nostalgia levels. Mania has new levels in addition to returning levels.

Yes, the point of Generations is to celebrate Sonic's past. If Mania intends to create a new experience in connection to the Classic games, it doesn't make sense to vaguely follow the footsteps of previous games.

 

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Again, I suggest waiting for seeing how other remixed levels in the game turned out first before dismissing them.

*shrug*

[CleverSonicUsername]

I mean they've said multiple times now that there will be a valid reason for going back to those levels, and that Green Hill is the least altered out of all of them. On that last point, what little we've seen of act 2 and the lower section of act 1 does show that quite a bit has changed between the Sonic 1 version of the level and Sonic Mania's interpretation.

I think it's a bit premature to write the whole game off just based on what we've seen.

[Milo]

55 minutes ago, AtomicPencils said:

Yes, the point of Generations is to celebrate Sonic's past. If Mania intends to create a new experience in connection to the Classic games, it doesn't make sense to vaguely follow the footsteps of previous games.

I went back and edited my previous post to better clarify the points I was trying to make with that statement. You got me before I edited, but I digress.

With Generations, it's designed purely on the basis of being "Sonic's Greatest Hits", and little else. Take, for example, Sonic's friends that were petrified by the Time Eater being locked to specific locations. One could say it's because they correspond to the games they (first) made their appearance in, but the game doesn't specifically state that. Or why (certain) levels or bosses are drastically different from the levels in the original games, or why they even appear in the first place (i.e. why a level like Planet Wisp appears over any other world --Sweet Mountain, Aquarium Park, etc.-- from Colors; or why Crisis City appears in the game at all, despite Sonic 2006 technically being non-canon).

Generations does not provide any contextual/story reason for why these things happen or why they exist as they do in the game--which is something Taxman has said Sonic Mania will do. He's saying that Green Hill and any other remixed levels that will appear in the game aren't just going to be there without any reasons, or even without any pretences.

And personally speaking, given what we know of his past work, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't take his word for it. He and Stealth are people, who in their remasters, have added additional material that was never in the original game--playable characters, alternate routes, spindash/physics options, additional special stages, Super transformations, elemental shields, and even scrapped levels, among other things. Some of these aren't even plainly visible in the main campaign, you'd have to dig through cheats/the debug mode in order to find/activate them. Taxman and Stealth (and PWG too, a fair amount of them are former Retro staffers/dev members of the original Sonic 2 HD fan remake) aren't a group of people unfamiliar and/or uninterested about classic Sonic and its history; if anything, it's the complete opposite. They are no Dimps/BRB.

[AtomicPencils]

15 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I went back and edited my previous post to better clarify the points I was trying to make with that statement. You got me before I edited, but I digress.

With Generations, it's designed purely on the basis of being "Sonic's Greatest Hits", and little else. Take, for example, Sonic's friends that were petrified by the Time Eater being locked to specific locations. One could say it's because they correspond to the games they (first) made their appearance in, but the game doesn't specifically state that. Or why (certain) levels or bosses are drastically different from the levels in the original games, or why they even appear in the first place (i.e. why a level like Planet Wisp appears over any other world --Sweet Mountain, Aquarium Park, etc.-- from Colors; or why Crisis City appears in the game at all, despite Sonic 2006 technically being non-canon).

Generations does not provide any contextual/story reason for why these things happen the way they are in the game--which is something Taxman has said Sonic Mania will do. He's saying that Green Hill and any other remixed levels that will appear in the game aren't just going to be there without any reasons, or even any pretences.

I grant Generations a pardon for having a terrible explanation just because of the fact it's a "Sonic's Greatest Hits". Mania doesn't present itself that way though. Mania describes itself as a re-imagining, and having an all new story, and brand new experience. All at once. No matter how good Taxman and Stealth are as developers, I can't help but think the way they present this game is attempting to cover too much ground. That's not to say I believe they'll create a product akin to BRB quality (that's quite the exaggeration!) It's the fact this game will have less original content than re-imagined content; leaves some room to doubt the story will give us any new revelations on Classic Sonic's world. I'm only a little disappointed. Is it so wrong to express this concern?

[Radiant Hero Ike]

Did you guys already see the tweet confirming different versions of a song for each act?

 

[FriendBot]

10 minutes ago, God Eater Lenka said:

Did you guys already see the tweet confirming different versions of a song for each act?

 

Is it really that shocking though? I mean, Mania is clearly going for the same presentation as 3 & Knuckles with the story being told through stage-by-stage transitions. It would be shocking to hear it WON'T for the same musical style as 3&K. And besides I want more of Lopes goodness, GIMME GIMME!

[molul]

It was said a few weeks ago, yes. 

So looking forward to listening to Green hill act 2 remix ^^

[Milo]

1 hour ago, AtomicPencils said:

I grant Generations a pardon for having a terrible explanation just because of the fact it's a "Sonic's Greatest Hits".

Eh, I don't really think that's enough to let Generations of the hook, but I'll just agree to disagree here.

1 hour ago, AtomicPencils said:

Mania doesn't present itself that way though. Mania describes itself as a re-imagining, and having an all new story, and brand new experience. All at once. No matter how good Taxman and Stealth are as developers, I can't help but think the way they present this game is attempting to cover too much ground.

I'm checking the official site for the game, and while the site description does use those terms, I'd argue they're not being phrased as how you're framing them here. The term re-imagining is specifically being used to refer to the returning zones, it's not describing the game as a whole. There is also no mention of a story on the description either; and unless there's a source I missed somewhere, I'm don't recall anything said by the PR / developers about the story being said to be all-new, let alone anything about the story outside it exist and old zones play a part of it.

1 hour ago, AtomicPencils said:

That's not to say I believe they'll create a product akin to BRB quality (that's quite the exaggeration!)

You're misquoting me. I referred to BRB in the context of people who did not understand or want to understand classic Sonic, not in terms of people who were not able to put out a quality game. The reason I brought that up was because of your concerns about Mania ending up being a context-less rehash of the old games like Generations was, I was just saying Taxman and co. don't strike me as the type of people to do that based on their background with classic Sonic.

1 hour ago, AtomicPencils said:

It's the fact this game will have less original content than re-imagined content; leaves some room to doubt the story will give us any new revelations on Classic Sonic's world. I'm only a little disappointed. Is it so wrong to express this concern?

No, it's not wrong to express concerns; but you weren't expressing concerns in your initial post. You were outright saying the game wouldn't have old levels in the game for contextual reasons, and that old levels would be there just for the sake of nostalgia.

Which goes back to what I've been saying from the start of this argument--let's wait for how the other remixed zones turn out before making those judgements. Even if we ignore everything Taxman has said about the presence remixed zones in the game so far...Green Hill is to date the only re-imagined level that has been shown. Calling the game to be just pulling old zones for nostalgia's sake isn't bad in of itself, but basing that assumption on the only remixed zone that's been shown off up to this point is premature.

[JezMM]

I will say, I hope Tee Lopes doesn't fly off the handle with his Act 2 remixes - I'd like to see them have variety more in melody than in quality/instrumentation.

That is to say, Green Hill Act 1 sounds very similar to the original, only minor upgrades - I want that to be observed in the Act 2 mix as well, as if Lopes was composing an Act 2 version "as it might've been at the time" - then with his little instrumentational upgrades on top.

Just really hope with the retro zones we don't get a Generations-type situation where Act 1 is "the slightly upgraded original" and Act 2 is "full-blown remake" (regarding how they handled Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Casino Night, Mushroom Hill and Sky Sanctuary, I mean).

Generations soundtrack was great anyway, and I'm sure Mania's will be too, but it's just a personal hope of mine that the soundtrack will have a nice unified feel.

For example Tee Lopes' 2012 Green Hill remix is AMAZING:

But if we had something like this for Act 2 it'd feel overly rich compared to Act 1.  If he's going for the "keep a couple of instruments from the original" concept I hope that isn't abandoned for the sake of blowing us away with the Act 2 mix on each familiar zone.

 

If that all makes sense.

Judging by the consistency in atmosphere between the tracks we have so far, I'm hopeful this is exactly what he's going for, but we haven't had any alternate act remixes to know for sure yet...  Regardless, the worst case scenario here is we have a slightly inconsistent but still overall amazing soundtrack like Generations, so no biggie.

[expansivelovestories]

Mirage Saloon act 2 seems to be a sign that he is excited about that same aesthetic range that you are describing!!

Although we haven't yet heard Act 1 it seems that it will be complemented by this track really nicely!  Tangentially I do wonder what zone elements are different in Act 1, is there more open desert with unique landscape elements, and the Saloon area is accessed at the end of Act 1 similar to finding the large pyramid in Sandopolis? 

 

[AtomicPencils]

8 hours ago, Gabe said:

I'm checking the official site for the game, and while the site description does use those terms, I'd argue they're not being phrased as how you're framing them here. The term re-imagining is specifically being used to refer to the returning zones, it's not describing the game as a whole. There is also no mention of a story on the description either; and unless there's a source I missed somewhere, I'm don't recall anything said by the PR / developers about the story being said to be all-new, let alone anything about the story outside it exist and old zones play a part of it.

Ah, okay I see your point. It was what I remembered from the trailer. It's not the exact words, but it gets the point across well enough.

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The reason I brought that up was because of your concerns about Mania ending up being a context-less rehash of the old games like Generations was, I was just saying Taxman and co. don't strike me as the type of people to do that based on their background with classic Sonic.

---

You were outright saying the game wouldn't have old levels in the game for contextual reasons, and that old levels would be there just for the sake of nostalgia.

Huh, alright I see where the misunderstanding started. I didn't mean that in the sense it would be as extremely convoluted as Generations. Let me try to re-phrase it again. From what information we've been given so far, I have the inclination that Mania's story won't go beyond a 'stop eggman' quest. So I'm led to believe the context provided for going through old levels will do very little worldbuilding, if any.

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Which goes back to what I've been saying from the start of this argument--let's wait for how the other remixed zones turn out before making those judgements. Even if we ignore everything Taxman has said about the presence remixed zones in the game so far...Green Hill is to date the only re-imagined level that has been shown. Calling the game to be just pulling old zones for nostalgia's sake isn't bad in of itself, but basing that assumption on the only remixed zone that's been shown off up to this point is premature.

Isn't... the purpose of releasing information to make us speculate though? Eh. Nevermind.

[JezMM]

2 hours ago, expansivelovestories said:

Mirage Saloon act 2 seems to be a sign that he is excited about that same aesthetic range that you are describing!!

Although we haven't yet heard Act 1 it seems that it will be complemented by this track really nicely!  Tangentially I do wonder what zone elements are different in Act 1, is there more open desert with unique landscape elements, and the Saloon area is accessed at the end of Act 1 similar to finding the large pyramid in Sandopolis? 

 

I'm sure I've said something to this effect previously but since it's relevant: Regarding Mirage Saloon, a part of me hopes that they used the Act 1 music in the demo version.  We all know that song so well now, it'll be weird to hear the two acts in reverse order.  Act 1 is forever going to sound like "the remix" to us otherwise, due to how familiar we now are with Act 2.

[Jango]

Mirage Saloon act 2 seems to be a sign that he is excited about that same aesthetic range that you are describing!!

Although we haven't yet heard Act 1 it seems that it will be complemented by this track really nicely!  Tangentially I do wonder what zone elements are different in Act 1, is there more open desert with unique landscape elements, and the Saloon area is accessed at the end of Act 1 similar to finding the large pyramid in Sandopolis?  [emoji5][emoji5]

 

I'm sure I've said something to this effect previously but since it's relevant: Regarding Mirage Saloon, a part of me hopes that they used the Act 1 music in the demo version.  We all know that song so well now, it'll be weird to hear the two acts in reverse order.  Act 1 is forever going to sound like "the remix" to us otherwise, due to how familiar we now are with Act 2.

 

Haha JezMM, you're looking too much into it ^^'

I think the remixes should go Sonic CD's route, same song, but remixed to match the level aesthetics/feeling.

[FReaK]

I'm starting to feel really curious to how far they are into development right now, since all the builds we have seen so far are old builds, even the one from the very first demo..but I doubt tax or anyone will give us a status update regarding that.

[CleverSonicUsername]

It feels like it's still early in development for me, but I think that mostly has to do with the fact that they've released so little info and Spring is right around the corner.