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Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

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5 minutes ago, It's a Very Merry Miru said:

Maybe Sonic and Knuckles Collection for one act and Lego Dimensions for the other? (Perhaps the existence of the Lego Dimensions music indicates that the S&K collection music is also off-limits?)

I never played that lego game but I'm just guessing that it was cheaper/easier to use new music for those stages than to pay royalties for the Sonic & Knuckles Collection music to the Japanese composers. I don't think the Sonic & Knuckles collection music is off limits, since the purpose of it was to avoid trouble with the Michael Jackson thing, since technically the PC port wasn't a rerelease of the Genesis version which they have been allowed to do (e.g. The Backbone XBLA/PSN emulator version of Sonic 3 & Knuckles).

Also Traveller's Tales developed the game so Sonic Team was probably like whatever, use these existing stage names if you can't be f***ed.

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So guys, I know we have done these a lot, but I want to take a different spin. Instead of saying what zones we want, why don't we make a list of the level progression we think will appear, including new and old levels? Ill start!

South Island 

  • Green Hill Zone
  • Starlight Zone
  • Sunset Shipyard Zone (New, unknown spiky heavy)

Westside Island

  • Mystic Cave Zone
  • Studiopolis Zone (New)
  • Oil Ocean Zone
  • Mirage Saloon Zone (New)

Angel Island

  • Angel Island Zone
  • Hydrocity Zone
  • Frostbite Fortress Zone (New, based off the screenshot and knight heavy)
  • Flying Battery Zone
  • Lava Reef Zone

Little Planet

  • Quartz Quadrant Zone
  • Crazy Circus Zone (New, based off of the hat heavy)
  • Stardust Speedway

Emerald Ocean

  • Marine Base Zone
  • Egg Comet Zone
  • Final Flare Zone (Super Sonic Battle)

Again, these are just some ideas I came up with. What do you guys think about zones and their progression in Mania?

 

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18 hours ago, FFWF said:

Regarding the Sonic 3 music problem, I wouldn't be surprised if what eventually ends up happening will be for Sega to get Tee Lopes to make replacement music for all the contractually problematic tracks, making sure this time that the contracts are iron-clad and they can use the new music whenever they want.

So just remixing them is out of the question? I would have thought enough altering of the songs would allow it to legally be considered a different work. If Hideki Naganuma could get away with sampling other music for Sonic Rush (Wasn't Michael Jackson sampled for Rush's music? Its relevant to this after all.), I don't see why Tee Lopes can't do something similar.

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No, remixes are derivative works and you have to get permission from the original artist and pay them royalties or some other kind of fee, which is exactly the situation Sega clearly would rather avoid.  Same goes for sampling; if you don't get permission, it's an instant copyright violation.  To avoid the threat of legal action, any remix of the original S3 music would have to be so different ("transformative") as to essentially be unrecognisable (and even then they wouldn't be out of danger), at which point you might as well make a new song anyway.

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I'm pretty sure that if Lego Dimensions doesn't have some Sonic tracks is because SEGA said TT to pay copyright taxes in order to use that music (Not sure about Howard Drossin music, but certainly they have to pay for Nakamura's songs). I think they had more a money problem than a problem of permissions itself.

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Nakamura is probably easier to deal with as there's​ a bunch of Green Hill remixes. Don't know about other SEGA's former composers...

 

Anyways, the only S&K Collection's music I wouldn't mind seeing is Carnival Night Act 2. Maaaaybe Launch Base. But Ice Cap, both acts, are pretty bland, IMO. Would rather have a totaly new music. That is, if Ice Cap is actually in Mania [emoji14]

 

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15 hours ago, Psychicmoose103 said:

Again, these are just some ideas I came up with. What do you guys think about zones and their progression in Mania?

I recall someone making a statement somewhere (real specific, I know) to the effect that Mirage Saloon was quite a bit later in the game than the other levels they'd showcased (Green Hill Zone and Studiopolis, at that time), so I'd put that farther back in the running order.  Maybe shift Flying Battery to earlier, too; remixed or not, it started out as a second level.

Speaking of Flying Battery... my original theory was that returning zone minibosses are based on the original boss, but the Flying Battery Zone miniboss is really fitting.  Maybe the miniboss could be based on one of those inverted, flying Prison Eggs from Angel Island and Marble Garden instead?  Either the miniboss or boss could be some kind of weird scrap mecha, too, based off those heaps of crushed badniks lying around.

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I have played Lego Dimensions, and something interesting is that the Carnival Night music is there.

As in, its just a minor remix to the original Sonic 3 carnival night song. If they could get the Carnival Night music into that game, why would it be a problem for mania (other than financial stuff). Carnival Night was one of the zones that had the music replaced for the PC port of the game, yet the original Genesis version made it into Lego Dimensions. Strange?

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10 minutes ago, Gemster312 said:

I have played Lego Dimensions, and something interesting is that the Carnival Night music is there.

As in, its just a minor remix to the original Sonic 3 carnival night song. If they could get the Carnival Night music into that game, why would it be a problem for mania (other than financial stuff). Carnival Night was one of the zones that had the music replaced for the PC port of the game, yet the original Genesis version made it into Lego Dimensions. Strange?

The simple answer to this is; you're wrong, innit. It's not the original song.

It's actually considerably different, as with all the other Sonic tracks:

 

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On 3/27/2017 at 1:12 PM, FReaK said:

I also think mania is just the beginning of a new classic sonic sub franchise, I mean just look at the sales of the Collectors Edition - most of them are completely sold out. If this is any indicator of future sales then mania is going to be amazing for sega.

As impressive as that sounds, it kinda depends on how many Collectors Editions there were to order. It reminds me of how people were surprised by how fast Switches were selling out, even though (from what I gather) that was happening because Nintendo was only shipping out a limited number of 'em.

That said, I'm sure the game'll do well. Depending on how SEGA plays it (i.e. marketing) I could see it selling extremely well, even. But we'll have to wait and see. XP

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10 hours ago, FFWF said:

No, remixes are derivative works and you have to get permission from the original artist and pay them royalties or some other kind of fee, which is exactly the situation Sega clearly would rather avoid.  Same goes for sampling; if you don't get permission, it's an instant copyright violation.  To avoid the threat of legal action, any remix of the original S3 music would have to be so different ("transformative") as to essentially be unrecognisable (and even then they wouldn't be out of danger), at which point you might as well make a new song anyway.

Wow this stuff really is a mess. And all for songs that loop after a minute or less. Well if Flying Battery Zone being in Mania is any indication, Sega might have just mandated that they can't use any stages where the music is a problem.

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At the very least, Carnival Night uses excerpts from the famous 'Entry of the Gladiators'.

It's a public domain track that everyone will have heard a number of times. Carnival Night in Lego Dimensions is therefore able to get away with also using parts of the song, which makes it sound instantly familiar to anyone who knows the Sonic 3 track, but manages to completely avoid any potential copyright issues. 

 

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ah, see now that clears up a lot.

Thank you :)

 

Edit: Did anyone notice that on the sonic multimedia page they posted some image with a barcode (doesn't translate to anything useful as far as anyone has found there) but below it says "Display until: June 1st 2017". Speculate away?

Also, there was a post about Labyrinth Zone ("Now you hear the drowning music") and the tags below it talked about how drowning sucks, followed by "But that's why theres the bubble shield". The only place Labyrinth zone and a bubble shield could ever overlap is Sonic Mania.

Clues potentially confirming Labyrinth being in Sonic Mania?

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DUDE. The Lego Dimensions tracks give me the worst case of anxiety ever! The melody is just about to sound the same as the original, BUT IT NEVER GETS THERE! This especially happens in the Carnival Night music. When I hear the "entry of the gladiators" part my brain expects the next part, but it never comes, it just keeps repeating. It's cruel.

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2 hours ago, Gemster312 said:

Also, there was a post about Labyrinth Zone ("Now you hear the drowning music") and the tags below it talked about how drowning sucks, followed by "But that's why theres the bubble shield". The only place Labyrinth zone and a bubble shield could ever overlap is Sonic Mania.

Clues potentially confirming Labyrinth being in Sonic Mania?

Hmm!!  Well, Act 2 of Gemstone Garden from Stealth's Headcannon Game Engine project is partially based on Labyrinth and it is quite fantastic.  It can be seen in this video starting around 4:25

 

I am not sure how many direct tributes to this zone would be included but certainly there could be some foliage and completely new sections of the environment either higher or lower!  Labyrinth is in many ways the most elegant and mysterious zone between both Sonic 1 and 2; if they do decide to include it I can understand why, there is so much to appreciate about it!   I do understand why it is disliked too; but, surely the gameplay elements that make it at times rather unenticing to replay would be resolved prior to including it in Mania!

Also most likely Tee has heard the Labyrinth demo recording which includes some cues for the instrument sounds that couldn't be realized, that would make the zone feel quite different!  There are softer edges/filters and pitch effects on many of the sounds.  The marimba instrument is not as emphaszied instead playing in the background, and the bass is almost like a tuba! 

Also, definitely how the drums were planned to be really clear in the mix; the snare and hi hats sound particularly delightful!  Normally Labyrinth zone is not normally one you would think to air drumming along with, but this demo recording has that energy to them!

The Genesis version is classic in its own ways but there is a lot of unique potential in the original arrangement too!

 

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and here I'm just hoping that they are treating Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles as separate entities and they will include Ice Cap Zone. I would love to hear an official remix of that stage 

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31 minutes ago, LunarEdge said:

and here I'm just hoping that they are treating Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles as separate entities and they will include Ice Cap Zone. I would love to hear an official remix of that stage 

They said both halves will get representation. There's two ways you can take that though. Let's say hypothetically each game gets two zones. Either we get two from Sonic 3 and two from Knuckles, or we get one from 3 and one from Knuckles to make it even with the others.

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I don't think it's out of the question that the Mania team could take on the challenge of "fixing" a zone which they like but which doesn't have the greatest gameplay; ditto, for instance, Wacky Workbench.  I would imagine that a remixed Hydrocity might be given elements of Labyrinth and Tidal Tempest, though... and vice-versa.

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I really hope none of the "New Zones" are zones from their previous games that they have made.

I get it how that would be "New" to people who never played their previous titles, but they wouldn't be "New" to those who have.

Let's hope they got those creativity juices flowing!

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On 3/29/2017 at 1:31 PM, Blue Blood said:

At the very least, Carnival Night uses excerpts from the famous 'Entry of the Gladiators'.

It's a public domain track that everyone will have heard a number of times. Carnival Night in Lego Dimensions is therefore able to get away with also using parts of the song, which makes it sound instantly familiar to anyone who knows the Sonic 3 track, but manages to completely avoid any potential copyright issues. 

 

Yeah this is the sort of thing I was referring to in my previous post. Its nice to see they developed some sort of workaround for Lego Dimensions so here's hoping we can see something similar to other remix tracks from Tee Lopes.

With the comparisons between Studiopolis and Mirage Saloons' music I've heard that Tee Lopes might have a leitmotif for his original music in Mania and though he doesn't seem to have used it with his remix of Green Hill I wonder if he would for other returning levels provided there's a leitmotif at all.

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I was lurking around the social media of Christian Whitehead, Stealth, and PagodaWest to see if there was any additional information they may have written about.

Well somebody asked if this game would be able to be played at a 4:3 aspect ratio and Christian said yes.

Here's the posts:

58ddb45a3c4b0_SonicMania43.thumb.png.a7d9febdd0a450988e001c6f25d87ff9.png

So besides having a CRT filter option we will also have the option to play in 4:3.

We actually saw a glimpse of this aspect ratio back when they released the Collector's Edition commercial.

I thought it was rather peculiar that the HUD and Lives counter was closer to Sonic in that footage but with Christian confirming this option I no longer have to speculate on it.

 

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