Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

[TheOcelot]

3 hours ago, expansivelovestories said:

The press release after the game announcement did not mention Sonic CD. 

Yes it does:

Quote

"Sonic Mania brings fans back into the 2D world of platform games with nostalgic pixel-style art and core classic gameplay by reimagining iconic Zones and Acts from Sonic The Hedgehog, Sonic The Hedgehog 2, Sonic CD and Sonic The Hedgehog 3 and Knuckles, and adding in completely new Zones with all-new Acts, and bosses into the mix. Developed by SEGA of America and in collaboration with PagodaWest Games along with Christian Whitehead and Simon Thomley, the game will be digitally available for PlayStation® 4, Xbox One and PC in Spring 2017."

I don't think the story of Mania is going to feature time-travel. Taxman said the story will cohesively link the old reimagined stages and new stages together so I can't really see them using time-travel as a plot point. Besides, time-travel was already used in Sonic CD and I think it's important for Mania to have an original story, to appear different enough from the classics and to not just rehash existing ideas.

With regards to whether the re-imagined Sonic CD stage in Mania could feature time-travel (even if the rest of the game doesn't). If the game was just a celebration of previous zones like Generations was, then I would expect them to add time travel, but as it isn't just an anniversary game I can't see it happening.

If for arguments sake we say Mania's canon takes place after all the classics, then whatever Sonic CD stage appears in Mania should feature more of a good future setting. I say this because Sonic saved Little Planet in Sonic CD (not unless you go by Sonic 4 Ep2's canon where Sonic & Tails fucked-off and left Little Planet to rot inside Death Egg MkII ) which guaranteed a good future. Therefore, we should begin to see the effects in Mania of the CD stage starting to become it's good future, if that makes sense? Continuity is important when it comes to the classic games, so any nods towards their continuity in Mania needs to be done right.

On a different note......I would be quite happy if Mania's story/final boss doesn't take place in outer space or on one of Eggman's space-stations. It's been done so many times in the classics and other 2d games. It's not a big deal but they don't need the game to finish in space to create a satisfying ending. Or course I would love to see Death Egg appear in Mania, but remember Mania has its own canon so I'm not expecting Death Egg to be brought back. Much like if Stardust Speedway appears in Mania I would not expect a showdown with Metal Sonic because this is a different story from Sonic CD, and as we saw in Green Hill there are different/new bosses to fight. 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not too concerned about Mania meticulously referencing plot points of other games, or trying to pull a "Sonic: Days of Future Past" type deal (though people are more thinking Project 2017 will do that, haha!).

As long as it's cohesive and entertaining on it's own merits, and as it's own thing, I will be satisfied. That's where a lot of the best Sonic stories come from. They aren't too concerned with starting, ending, or continuing some epic saga of 50+ games or something. They just do their own thing.

As far as linking old and new zones together goes, I'd imagine there would be a world map screen for the level select, that gives us an idea of where everything is in relation to each other.

That being said, I don't think this game needs to try too hard with the story itself, or be too complex. Some nice moments of cool characterisation and interaction between characters could be cool though (which has always been what draws me to Sonic, more so than the story itself). Stuff like how Knuckles tells you to go on without him in Sky Sanctuary Zone in S3&K in Sonic's story.

[Tenko]

If it's a new saga of sorts then I wouldn't expect too much cohesion, but the classics did have linking stories with the exception of Sonic CD.

After Eggman's defeat in the original game he follows Sonic to Westside Island and posits he can finish his ultimate weapon the Death Egg with the power of the Chaos Emeralds.

The Death Egg is the link between Sonic 2 and the two following games. With it crashing on Angel Island twice, once after Sonic 2, leading to the events of Sonic 3, and again into the volcano of Lava Reef in Sonic & Knuckles.

If they are continuing from where Sonic & Knuckles left off I wouldn't expect to see the Death Egg as it was shown to be destroyed at the end of Sonic & Knuckles. It might be nice to link Maina to 3K with an explanation or maybe a cutscene telling/showing where Eggman's crippled mech landed after Sonic tool back the Master Emerald from him in space.

Maybe the Sonic CD parts could also explain how the good Doctor retrieved Metal Sonic too..I'm not even going to entertain Sonic 4's poor execution of that one.

[ChikoLad]

9 minutes ago, Tenko said:

If it's a new saga of sorts then I wouldn't expect too much cohesion, but the classics did have linking stories with the exception of Sonic CD.

After Eggman's defeat in the original game he follows Sonic to Westside Island and posits he can finish his ultimate weapon the Death Egg with the power of the Chaos Emeralds.

The Death Egg is the link between Sonic 2 and the two following games. With it crashing on Angel Island twice, once after Sonic 2, leading to the events of Sonic 3, and again into the volcano of Lava Reef in Sonic & Knuckles.

If they are continuing from where Sonic & Knuckles left off I wouldn't expect to see the Death Egg as it was shown to be destroyed at the end of Sonic & Knuckles. It might be nice to link Maina to 3K with an explanation or maybe a cutscene telling/showing where Eggman's crippled mech landed after Sonic tool back the Master Emerald from him in space.

Maybe the Sonic CD parts could also explain how the good Doctor retrieved Metal Sonic too..I'm not even going to entertain Sonic 4's poor execution of that one.

I know, I've always looked at the Classic trilogy & Knuckles as a continuous saga.

My issue more comes with how trying to tie Sonic Mania really heavily into them might be a bit iffy with me, or could get messy in general. IMO, the Classic trilogy & Knuckles are a complete storyline and don't need any direct expanding, like an attempt at a direct sequel to S3&K. I think it would only mess with things and come off as unnecessary, more or less what happened with Sonic 4.

I think it's fine if it's just a case of using the locations of the old games, in combination with the new zones, to form a cohesive world for Sonic Mania itself, and maybe use that world for a new trilogy or something if Mania does well. What I don't want though, is for it to try and make up answers/solutions to questions/problems that never existed in the old games, or anything like that. I wouldn't mind explaining some things from Sonic CD or trying to fit it in more coherently alongside the Classic trilogy & Knuckles, but in general, I don't think those old games need to have anything added to them through Mania, those stories are pretty complete as is.

We'll just have to wait either way, since the current statements on that matter are too vague for us to properly understand what they intend to do.

[Tenko]

We are in pretty good hands with the game. I can totally understand the want to leave well enough alone with the original saga of classic titles tho.

Perhaps the old zones are being used in the story to recruit the playable characters, similar to Sonic Advance. Sonic starting in Green Hill seems likely as it's an imediate throwback like in Generations, plus Taxman has said it's the most tame of the reimagined zones meaning it will likely be the first. Something big happens, Sonic decides he needs to call on his friends again. Travel to Westside Island to get Tails, Angel Island to ask Knuckles for help...No idea where CD would fit in to that theory tho as per usual lol.

[Jango]

We are in pretty good hands with the game. I can totally understand the want to leave well enough alone with the original saga of classic titles tho.

Perhaps the old zones are being used in the story to recruit the playable characters, similar to Sonic Advance. Sonic starting in Green Hill seems likely as it's an imediate throwback like in Generations, plus Taxman has said it's the most tame of the reimagined zones meaning it will likely be the first. Something big happens, Sonic decides he needs to call on his friends again. Travel to Westside Island to get Tails, Angel Island to ask Knuckles for help...No idea where CD would fit in to that theory tho as per usual lol.

Maybe Amy went there for whatever reason? Eggman could very easily lure her into going to Little Planet. My guess is, Sonic needs the Time Stones to fix some irreversible shit Eggman did. You know what I would find totaly awesome? If the Desert Dazzle level is the Sonic CD "re-imagined" zone. Like, imagine if there's an eighth Time Stone? Maybe a Master Time Stone?! [emoji102]

[Salamander]

I don't think there needs to be too detailed an explanation of why Sonic is going to each zone.  In the classics, he just winds up wherever his adventure takes him next, and Eggman's already gotten there ahead of him somehow.  So long as the zone transitions make sense and you don't just walk straight from Oil Ocean into Quartz Quadrant and onto Hydrocity, I will accept that Sonic and Eggman both just happen to be in the right place at the right time.

Likewise, I would accept a total handwave explanation for why, for instance, Knuckles is involved.  "Now that the Master Emerald is safe, Knuckles wants to give Doctor Eggman a piece of his mind.  When he hears that the evil doctor is up to no good again, Knuckles decides to pursue him to even the score."  Bam, all there in the manual, nothing complicated needed.

[molul]

It's impossible that this game goes wrong, unless we don't realise when we're expecting too much.

I think it's going to be better than a Sonic 4 Sonic Team had developed on 1995/1996. Yeah, THAT better. Because Taxman et al are not only aware of what they have to carry from Sonic 1-2-3-&K-CD, they also have a fan love that Sonic Team may not have neccessarily. That makes a huge difference.

I envy Taxman & Stealth. They've their dream come true, and they have everything it takes to live up to what fans should expect. 

[Ajavalo]

On the subject of remastered Sonic 3&K zones: what do you think they could do with them so they feel sufficiently fresh? I was thinking about Angel Island Zone being half-recovered from the fire, and Launch Base Zone all mossy and with broken tech. CW hinted at this in the latest interview.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Ajavalo

[Tenko]

4 hours ago, FFWF said:

I don't think there needs to be too detailed an explanation of why Sonic is going to each zone.  In the classics, he just winds up wherever his adventure takes him next, and Eggman's already gotten there ahead of him somehow.  So long as the zone transitions make sense and you don't just walk straight from Oil Ocean into Quartz Quadrant and onto Hydrocity, I will accept that Sonic and Eggman both just happen to be in the right place at the right time.

Yeah, that's what I was meaning previously. It doesn't really 'need' to be heavy on the story, same kind of setup as the previous classic titles would be fine.

But like you said, he shouldn't really just exit Quartz Quadrant and end up in Hydrocity. Each game was set in a separate location, with all zones/areas being in that one location. So to just walk off screen from Angel Island and end up in a zone from Little Planet without some kind of cutaway, would for the fans of the era that know their stuff, be a little bit of a jarring thing. To be fair tho Joe Public probably wouldnt care at all.

I'm sure Tax/Stealth would have thought of all this already anyway. They know the source material just as well as us, if not better.

[ChikoLad]

4 hours ago, molul said:

It's impossible that this game goes wrong, unless we don't realise when we're expecting too much.

I think it's going to be better than a Sonic 4 Sonic Team had developed on 1995/1996. Yeah, THAT better. Because Taxman et al are not only aware of what they have to carry from Sonic 1-2-3-&K-CD, they also have a fan love that Sonic Team may not have neccessarily. That makes a huge difference.

I envy Taxman & Stealth. They've their dream come true, and they have everything it takes to live up to what fans should expect. 

Sonic 4 was more of a Dimps project (the people who make the handheld Sonic platformers since Sonic Advance) than a Sonic Team one.

They had involvement but not much, as far as I'm aware. They would have been developing both Colours and Generations at the time, as well Black Knight, so it doesn't even make sense that they would be doing much on Sonic 4.

IIRC it wasn't ever intended to be called Sonic 4 on Dimp's part, they just wanted to make a 2D sidescroller for consoles and mobile. It was SoA that wanted to call it Sonic 4.

[Dantemustdie00]

50 minutes ago, Ajavalo said:

On the subject of remastered Sonic 3&K zones: what do you think they could do with them so they feel sufficiently fresh? I was thinking about Angel Island Zone being half-recovered from the fire, and Launch Base Zone all mossy and with broken tech. CW hinted at this in the latest interview.

We kinda are getting that with Green Hill Zone I believe as the mini-boss at the end is battle in a sea cavern.

 

[StaticMania]

Just now, ChikoLad said:

Sonic 4 was more of a Dimps project (the people who make the handheld Sonic platformers since Sonic Advance) than a Sonic Team one.

"A Sonic the Hedgehog 4" developed after Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles by SonicTeam, not "The Sonic 4" made in 2010 by Dimps".

[Jango]

6 hours ago, FFWF said:

I don't think there needs to be too detailed an explanation of why Sonic is going to each zone.  In the classics, he just winds up wherever his adventure takes him next, and Eggman's already gotten there ahead of him somehow.  So long as the zone transitions make sense and you don't just walk straight from Oil Ocean into Quartz Quadrant and onto Hydrocity, I will accept that Sonic and Eggman both just happen to be in the right place at the right time.

Likewise, I would accept a total handwave explanation for why, for instance, Knuckles is involved.  "Now that the Master Emerald is safe, Knuckles wants to give Doctor Eggman a piece of his mind.  When he hears that the evil doctor is up to no good again, Knuckles decides to pursue him to even the score."  Bam, all there in the manual, nothing complicated needed.

Speaking of Master Emerald, do you think Sonic Mania could possibly start to link some things of the Classic Era with Sonic Adventure? See, in Sonic 3&K, the Master Emerald is kept safe deep underground Angel Island inside a freaking volcano, as you know, the Hidden Palace.

 

In Sonic Adventure, however, the Master Emerald is not underground anymore, it resides in a shrine on the surface of the island. It's the shrine the Equidna trible built in the past and that was destroyed by Chaos. The same shrine is seen in Sonic Advance.

 

So, perhaps in Sonic Mania, we find Knuckles moving the Master Emerald to the surface? It's way easier to keep an eye on it And since we don't have Rouge the  Bat, the only one that can steal the ME is Eggman and his minions.

 

I like the idea that perhaps Knuckles' story will start off in a different level than Sonic and Tails'. I'll just get a little dissapointed if it's Sonic 3's Angel Island :V

[Diogenes]

I really don't see a need for it. We know the emerald's been moved, I can't imagine any explanation for it being moved that adds anything, so why should they take time to show it?

Besides, when Sonic and Tails return the emerald at the end of 3&K they leave it in Angel Island Zone (or at least some similar-looking unburnt area). It's simpler to assume he just moved it to the aboveground shrine from there, than to have him haul it back to Hidden Palace and then invent some new reason for it to be moved again.

[Sean]

Maybe Knuckles just got tired of hanging around Hidden Palace all the time and wanted to enjoy the outdoors so he deliberately moved it back to its original location (where we see it outdoors in SA1 as well)

[StaticMania]

Knuckles' story first cutscene in S3&K pretty much implied that he doesn't always stay down in the Hidden Palace Zone, so moving it to shrine outside pretty much means he has to guard it even more than he already does...more work for unlucky Knuckles.

[Jango]

Exactly, what I was trying to say is: does the Master Emerald's altar (shrine) has a chance to appear in Mania, connecting the Classic Era with Sonic Adventure? Maybe I'm a minority here, but I think it could be a nice little reference, since we might have a chance this time. The Classic Era is recognized as canon (duh, obviously) in Sonic Adventure when Amy remembers Sonic saving her from Metal Sonic, sooooooo...

As for Knux, I think there's no reason to keep guarding the ME underground, since well... Hidden Palace isn't hidden anymore! And we can assume Knuckles has gotten more protective of the giant gem since his reckless actions not so long ago. IF, Knuckles had his own story instead of just being a bonus character like Tails in Sonic CD, he'll probably be close to the ME. I hope so, knucklehead!

[Spooky Mulder]

14 hours ago, Ajavalo said:

On the subject of remastered Sonic 3&K zones: what do you think they could do with them so they feel sufficiently fresh? I was thinking about Angel Island Zone being half-recovered from the fire, and Launch Base Zone all mossy and with broken tech. CW hinted at this in the latest interview.

I've been pitching this for years, but I really want to see a Dead Egg Zone. Let's visit the ruins of the fallen Death Egg. Start in a jungle with broken remnants of the Death Egg scattered here and there amid malfunctioning, damaged badniks, the broken sections of the ship becoming bigger and more numerous as you progress through the jungle, all leading to the actual collapsing wreckage of the Death Egg which has been overtaken by vines and other jungle life.

[Jango]

Oh man, that would be so cool. Even the name you thought is awesome, the "Dead Egg Zone", shiiiiiiiiit. To pick only one must've been so hard for Team Mania. I wonder if SEGA gave them this freedom, or if they just come up abd said: "-you have to remake this, this and that zone".

Or maybe even, "-you can do these zones, but not these ones, because of X and Y". I can imagine SEGA cutting out some of the Sonic 3 zones, because of the music issues, but if they can change a zone, they can most certainly change its music too.

[Celestia]

I feel like if there was any possibility the Sonic 3 level(s) they plan on including couldn't make it in, they wouldn't have listed it. So either the issues have been worked out, or they simply chose zone(s) that have music they can use without any problems.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Celestia

[Tenko]

That press release lists 'Sonic 3 & Knuckles', if they aren't treated as separate games then that would make the zone choice thar much harder for the team I imagine.

[Salamander]

Have we ever figured out why they don't just use the alternative tracks from the PC Sonic & Knuckles Collection?  Since Mania would be remaking old zones anyway, possible reimagining them, I would have thought that using different music wouldn't be an issue.  Although I am prepared for the possibility of them only including a single S3&K zone representative if the budget only runs to four remake levels total.

[Hyp3hat]

21 minutes ago, FFWF said:

Have we ever figured out why they don't just use the alternative tracks from the PC Sonic & Knuckles Collection?  Since Mania would be remaking old zones anyway, possible reimagining them, I would have thought that using different music wouldn't be an issue.  Although I am prepared for the possibility of them only including a single S3&K zone representative if the budget only runs to four remake levels total.

Well, for one they're not very good tracks, but more seriously the tracks aren't well known, even in the Sonic community. As much as I'd love to see Ice Cap in Mania, one of the main reasons I love the stage is its soundtrack, and if it was the jank PC version instead I'd be disappointed. It's just going to disappoint a lot of people. 

I must have missed this, but did Green Hill in Mania use a remixed track? Or the Megadrive original?

[DarkRula]

Remixed for the most part, though still recognisable. Which means 3 & Knuckles levels can still happen as they won't be using the original songs.